Looks the High End is Avoiding Blu Ray players, too! - Page 3

Originally Posted by super390

Maybe there won't be more than a few exotic Blu-ray players. That's a shame. I would have liked to get to play around at least once with a top-loading BD transport or one with a battery power supply or a tube analog section to see if it makes a difference.

Originally Posted by thebland

Err.... Classe' is at least...

Yes, I have been somewhat an opponent of over-spending on a Blu Ray player if 1080P24 and Bitstream/LPCM HD Audio is your game... I still see little improvement in the 1080P24 PQ / AQ comparing my $2K Denon 3800, OPPO BDP-83 and Panny BD-10. They're all alike in sound and audio (though only the former two can do 1080P24).

So, I read this article and it felt like I was answering the questions! (except I don't work at Classe'.

But, it looks like we are stuck with the likes of Denon, Pioneer, Sony and the the usual BIg Store brands for our HD player needs...


From an Interview with Classe's Dave Nauber, Exec. VP, Brand Development of Classe. This is an excerpt from a posted insterview with HTGuide on the new flagship SSP-800 processor.

Blu-Ray
Q. In the past we have heard from Classe that the reason the company was not looking to create a Blu-Ray player was based upon not being able to offer value over a PS3. It was announced recently that the cost of licensing for Blu-Ray might be decreased. There has also been a lot of buzz around the Pioneer BDP-09FD over on AVS that it outperforms the PS3 significantly at Audio and Video playback for not just SD, but BD Disc's. Do you still stand firm on not being able to produce a [Blu-Ray] player, which used a digital transport for 1080P/24, and/or bit-streaming audio or converting it to PCM, would not produce better AQ or PQ then something like a PS3? Can you explain why it would not be possible for a player to produce a better PQ or AQ when used as a digital transport? Furthermore, if Classe can justify creating a CDT, wouldn't a BDT have the same justification?




A. There are at least five reasons why we won’t design a Blu-ray player—any one of which could be sufficient to discourage us.

1) We can’t justify the value proposition. Using HDMI out into a properly designed SSP, as you should, there isn’t enough performance improvement available to justify a price of ten or twenty times that of an ordinary player?

2) The product life cycles are too short to recoup our development costs.

3) It would involve an extended support commitment (“the game on my Shrek 7 disc doesn’t work right but it plays fine on my cheap Sony”) that we could not maintain. This is especially true if you re-box (put your name on) someone else’s design, which will be a popular option for high-end companies.

4) The trend is toward online delivery, Blu-ray reign is likely to be half as long as it was for DVD (which was half as long as CD).

5) The opportunity cost is too great. All high-end companies are small and like all companies, we have limited resources. To devote precious development time to a Blu-ray project would prevent us from developing products where we really can make a big difference in performance.


Sounds reasonable to me.......

Originally Posted by joerod

So they have no plans to bring their equipment up to date? So those that want HD discs in their homes that like their brand will be forced to buy something else? Talk about leaving yourself out there...

Originally Posted by joerod

Anyway, if I were one of there loyal customers, I would be looking somewhere else...

Originally Posted by FoxyMulder

From that article "Esoteric product reviews have concluded that Esoteric has taken regular DVD quality so close to Blu-ray, that unless you look very closely at the screen, you may not be able to tell the difference"

Originally Posted by kucharsk

Pity Teac/Esoteric have many very well-made quality products.

It's truly saddening that they need to make such a desperate comment.

Originally Posted by Elkhunter

For those of you with $$$$$, note that Lexicon will have a Profile 2.0 player this November. The player will play DVD-Audio and SACD discs.

The player features embedded 1GB memory, Anchor Bay's VRS video processing, 7.1 channel analog outputs, a USB port and it plays AVCHD camcorder video.

No price yet (if you have to ask, you can't afford it).

http://www.twice.com/article/316135-...EDIA_Plans.php

Originally Posted by zeropoint

Sounds like it might be based on the Oppo 83.

Originally Posted by vancouver

Exactly..

In the words of Classe about doing the same thing and keeping with the theme of the thread..i think this reply from them is fitting.

"We value our customers trust and want them to be proud of our Products...it would be difficult to be proud of paying $3-4k for a $500 player"

"We therefore do not intend to rebadge a competitor's product and sell it at an inflated price."

Originally Posted by BAMAVADER

but its ok for them to sell a $500 DVD player for $5000...

Wow, they really care about us.

Originally Posted by vancouver

Looks pretty damn close to me

Id say its a $500 player priced at $3500, with perhaps a better analog section then the Oppo worth maybe an extra $500-$1000. There is also value in a better looking case. BUt certainly not an extra 2k.

Originally Posted by Denophile

that sounds right to me--wonder if there is actually a better analog section--anyone know whats inside this thing other than the same great video processing chip?

i think the oppo is probably underpriced for the value it provides--seems like they must be planning on selling millions of these things to make some money...

Originally Posted by gamelover360

I have been following the whole "Can one BR player look better than another" argument for some time.

I am convinced that they can based upon every review I read and the kicker was this review of the 09 Pio Elite player by Stacy Spears. Using his personally developed test disc he is objectively measuring BR performance using for example chroma and luma. Interesting that he basically stated the $300 Panny outperformed the 09 Elite!

I am not saying night and day differences, but I believe there is some visible diff. with am eagle eye and a big enough screen.

Why are more people not talking about these tests.?

Originally Posted by discopaul

Can you link these tests?

The luma resolution was as good is gets, but the
chroma resolution has room for improvement. I use a
chroma multiburst and a chroma zone plate pattern to
evaluate chroma resolution. These tests allow you to evaluate the player’s
ability to resolve the finest amount of chroma detail. The BDP-09FD
resolves more chroma detail than the PS3®, but it is not as good as
the new offerings from Panasonic with their PHL chroma processing.
The BDP-09FD has 15 user-adjustable controls that affect the
video. For many, who like to tweak, you will be in video geek heaven.
The default controls reproduce what is on the disc with perfect accuracy,
sans the loss of chroma detail. None of the controls, including
chroma level, helped improve the chroma detail.

Earlier I mentioned that the BDP-09FD includes the Marvell Qdeo
2710 video processor. There are a small number of companies in the
video-processing space. The short list includes STMicro (Faroudja),
Silicon Optix (HQV), Anchor Bay Technology (DVDO), Sigma Designs
(VXP), and Marvell (Qdeo). All of the technologies are similar. They all
support high-quality video processing of HD content, but there are
subtle differences between them.

We watched a ton of disc material to evaluate the playback quality of the Oppo Blu-ray player. We checked out various aspects, including color, deinterlacing (of mostly standard definition titles) and black level reproduction and dynamic range. In all scenarios, the Oppo seemed to really perform well and positioned itself as an excellent video playback device for both high definition and standard definition material.

Blu-ray: The Fifth Element

This movie has been one of my reference discs for some time. The revised Blu-ray edition is an excellent disc for testing color reproduction and detail. We checked several scenes, including the one where Zorg delivers weapons to the Mangalores - a scene with particularly difficult detail and a breeding ground for moiré.


fifth-element3.jpg

The BDP-83 did exceptionally well on this movie and we noticed no artifacting, moiré or jaggie effects on any of the scenes. Colors were vibrant and black levels were rendered correctly, with lots of dynamic range.

Blu-ray: Underworld - Rise of the Lycans

This movie is about as colorful as a Tim Burton film… but we were using it to check out black level detail and look for gradations in patches of grays, determining whether or not the Oppo BDP-83 was truly capable of delivering top notch dynamic range. We really enjoyed the level of detail the player produced as well as its ability to accurately portray subtleties in the darkest scenes without crushing blacks.


Blu-ray: The Departed

While not one of my favorite films, The Departed at least delivers a decent picture quality and provided some excellent opportunities to observe facial detail. This movie also lent itself as a great way to observe scene detail and how well the BDP-83 showed off scene motion and dealt with fast pans.



Blu-ray: 300

300 is such an excellent film. While highly stylized, I just had to include it in the line-up, plus it helped me to see how well the player's BD-Live! features worked. The Oppo portrayed the fast-action and high-motion shots with ease, never failing in terms of its ability to produce smooth lines and excellent detail - even when the camera was moving at the speed of light.

On the HDMI side, the Luma and Chroma signals were observed to be aligned precisely and both Chroma and Luma resolutions are shown without breakup or lack of intensity in fine details

I then put a couple of Blu-rays I had around in my first-generation (SRP $1500) Pioneer Blu-ray player, which has the latest firmware updates. Compared to the Oppo BDP-83 I didn’t see any huge differences. Then I tried stopping on some still images in the Blu-rays. One scene of rooftops in Berlin had a great deal of detail and depth in it. The same image when paused as a still on the BDP-83 had improved resolution thruout the entire image. Rooftop signs where the letters were a big fuzzy on the Pioneer became much clearer on the BDP-83.

Originally Posted by vancouver

They have planned all along to have other high end brands rebage it. This lexicon thing is the first of many i think we will see.