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DP-1200 Obsessional... - Page 3  

post #61 of 141
5/15/09 at 4:54pm
Thread Starter 
You already ruined a perfectly fine thread with your name calling and innuendo, I believe you have had my blood pressure high enough to borderline on attempted murder for one day, please leave the thread.

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post #62 of 141
5/15/09 at 4:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

You keep on implying that there would be a better way with a true high native contrast high end projector -THAT DOES NOT EXIST, what currently exists is not acceptable once conditioned to the DCI projectors Film-like presentation.

There are of course different strokes for different folks and I won't go into the competition here, but as far what exists or not, my question also relates to the philosophical of what you want next. Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought from your posts that you didn't want higher on/off CR. Using gamma like you have makes me thinks that if you had it (without giving up other parameters) that you would use it.

As far as switching things on the fly to show people, I know from a previous screenshot that you have AVP2 and there is a scene in there that might be a good one. Right near the beginning, after the little alien jumps out of the chest, then the ship goes by, and then there is a pan inside the ship where I have paused just as the scene shows jars on both the left and right side of the screens with a wall of the ship (or something like that) in the middle. With the Planar 8150 the difference between dynamic iris enabled and dynamic iris disabled (probably 15k:1 on/off CR vs 3k:1 on/off CR) was very obvious, with the DI enabled case looking much less washed out and having more visible depth. Might be a good one to show off some different gamma curves too.

--Darin
post #63 of 141
5/15/09 at 5:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

You already ruined a perfectly fine thread with your name calling and innuendo, I believe you have had my blood pressure high enough to borderline on attempted murder for one day, please leave the thread.

I think the respondents saw it rather differently. No reasonable person could take anything bad from my "DCI Code" post.
post #64 of 141
5/15/09 at 5:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

There are of course different strokes for different folks and I won't go into the competition here, but as far what exists or not, my question also relates to the philosophical of what you want next. Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought from your posts that you didn't want higher on/off CR. Using gamma like you have makes me thinks that if you had it (without giving up other parameters) that you would use it.

--Darin

I am not willing to sacrifice signal to noise ratio, high mtf, colorimetry and depth of image for an occasional contrast improvement. What I want next is better understanding of all relevant video parameters and an understanding that sequential contrast is not going to come along with the other significant benefits that the DCI projectors provide, so stop playing games and optimize what we have that works.

Until the dmd changes from the 15degree tilt I do not expect to see native improvements.

If you look at some of the videos of the people that have seen the Prometheus and Helene most complement the contrast, starfields for example are vividly displayed, it is on the fade to blacks that you will notice the limitation.
post #65 of 141
5/15/09 at 5:15pm
Thread Starter 
Ridicule is the most effective communications weapon it distracts from the real issues, yet the point that was the drop that spilled the bucket was the one carefully timed after Odyssey reflected on sharing his opinion, that is the salvo I resent which carefully achieved it's desired effect: Me telling you to F_CK OFF right before Odyssey's revelatory post.

To anyone having any brains of their own they can see what is going on with your campaign; the TRUTH BEING OBFUSCATED.
post #66 of 141
5/15/09 at 5:21pm
3. Kinoton..........same again

Wich of Kinoton's Barco derived/modded projectors have you reviewed to come to this conclusion?
post #67 of 141
5/15/09 at 5:23pm
Thread Starter 
That would be film not video. Let's talk too and continue to shred the thread away.
post #68 of 141
5/15/09 at 5:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Ridicule is the most effective communications weapon it distracts from the real issues

Peter, if you cant see that for what it was, I question you entire perceptive ability.........especially visual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

the point that was the drop that spilled the bucket was the one carefully timed after Odyssey reflected on sharing his opinion, that is the salvo I resent which carefully achieved it's desired effect

Wow, I'm the Illuminati assassin again. Get a grip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

To anyone having any brains of their own they can see what is going on with your campaign; the TRUTH BEING OBFUSCATED.

FFS Peter, take those meds.
post #69 of 141
5/15/09 at 5:26pm
2 x 15 degrees, seems to help from the limited online reports and the one screenshot I have seen.
post #70 of 141
5/15/09 at 5:27pm
Thread Starter 
Illuminati assasin my ass - a Napoleonic complex run rampant...
post #71 of 141
5/15/09 at 5:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

3. Kinoton..........same again

Wich of Kinoton's Barco derived/modded projectors have you reviewed to come to this conclusion?

What are you talking about? What conclusion? Your post makes no sense whatsoever.

That was a brand list, given in response to Peters post. It was for his consumption alone, and he fully understood it
post #72 of 141
5/15/09 at 5:32pm
Thread Starter 
Why don't you guys do something productive and try convince Odyssey to list a few areas were DCI projectors may excel over the consumer units. Without him fully jumping into the fray.
post #73 of 141
5/15/09 at 5:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

a Napoleonic complex run rampant...

I'll take Napoleonic over Oedipus every time.
post #74 of 141
5/15/09 at 5:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

That would be film not video. Let's talk too and continue to shred the thread away.

I was well aware of that.

"Kinoton No-one could ever argue with that". If one knowingly discarded that assumption, and refers to the subject of this thread, then people would and could argue with that.

A few years ago at IBC one of the Kinoton guys not only complained about being stuck with getting the heart of the projector from Barco due to TI's licensing structure, wanting to design and develop his own machine. But he also let slip that Barco was keeping the best units to himselve supplying KTT with units that were not always upto scratch.
post #75 of 141
5/15/09 at 5:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Why don't you guys do something productive and try convince Odyssey to list a few areas were DCI projectors may excel over the consumer units. Without him fully jumping into the fray.

At such a general level he has done so in the past.

Did he get around to posting his comparison of the Christie HD6K-M, the Lumis and his Barco 100/1500 as reference? That would be what you are asking for. He returned the Christie I presume seeing he has kept the Sim2.
post #76 of 141
5/15/09 at 5:54pm
Thread Starter 
Bad for Kinoton good for me as I get cherry picked Barco's off the assembly line. They have production data summaries with all tolerances reported... the Prometheus unit was cherry picked among 8 based on these reports.
post #77 of 141
5/15/09 at 5:59pm
This may have changed, as it was a few years ago. Not sure if Kinoton has brought to market a new model of its own in the past year and a half or two, might very well have moved to getting complete Barco machines, instead, would need to investigate to know for sure. I do remember the German folks brought out a new model two or was it three years ago, already, haven't looked into it since.
post #78 of 141
5/15/09 at 6:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Why don't you guys do something productive and try convince Odyssey to list a few areas were DCI projectors may excel over the consumer units. Without him fully jumping into the fray.

Could we dial back the hostility and simply talk about the differences between the consumer and pro projectors? There ARE differences and they should be able to be clearly articulated by those who have experimented with both. Those who think they know because they read a review need not chime in. Let's stay on task if we could. Thanks.
post #79 of 141
5/15/09 at 6:26pm
Thread Starter 
More s/n ratio due to (better video processing 14 bit resolution pipeline), excellent TI scaler built in, 3% componentry in optical block and lenses, 3% DMD cherrypicked , ti p7 color system, built in triple flash refresh rate of 144hz, higher fill factor dmd. I have listed them before excellent sharpness at all frequencies MTF, better convergence through full adjustability.The list goes on and on everything else looks like a toy in comparison.

The 7$K lamp reflector is a work of art on it's own, newer units will have automatic xyz adjustment of lamp reflector. This will yield the most sharply focused Xenon illuminated images. Ability to have more than one lamp house for 2 or 3d purposes. On Dp-1500/2000 more so than DP-1200 which would require a smaller screen to do high contrast and 3-D. Dolby system for 3-D has optical element BEFORE THE LIGHT ENGINE -for negligIble effect on MTF for 3-D.
post #80 of 141
5/15/09 at 6:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

... 3% DMD cherrypicked ...

Where do the rest of the chips go? Does TI make those specific chips for anything other than DCI?

--Darin
post #81 of 141
5/15/09 at 6:36pm
Thread Starter 
The next 15% -those go to Industrial Grade Projector 2048x1080 non DCI from Nec, DPI, Christie, Runco and the lesser compliant 82% gets handed out in trade shows (discarded).
post #82 of 141
5/15/09 at 6:42pm
I wasn't going to ask in the earlier thread this claim was posted. Why would TI throw away 90 or if being more generous, 80%? There aren't that many Christie Roadies or the one or two DPI models with 2K chips being made.

http://www.christiedigital.com/AMEN/...oadieHD30K.htm

Edit: So TI really does throw them away, interesting.
post #83 of 141
5/15/09 at 7:08pm
The Barco DP-1200 has been on the market for almost a year...the Chinese and another Asian clients bought the initial runs. The real story at Kinoton was some engineering friction based on the lamphouse portion for the digital projectors...engineers working from a different mindset to reach the same end goal. TI has limited DCI type 2K licensing to four licenses with Barco working with Kinoton and Cinemeccanica....It is a very tiny market, which due to the financial crisis, we are only seeing 3D installs...not the additional 5 - 10,000 machines they hope to had installed by now. DCI specifications where initially approved late last year and still a work in progress....with the lack of funds, no need to rush the specs. I can only judge some posts based on my background as a dealer, manufacturer, technical management, former employee of one of the companies mentioned, member of SMPTE + other professional groups, past / present user of Torus, Surge / UPS protection, Rotan type of vent fans et cetera to see most of this as marketing, recycling and rediscovery...the ride is fun make sure your seat belt is tight.
post #84 of 141
5/15/09 at 7:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Fowler View Post

The real story at Kinoton was some engineering friction based on the lamphouse portion for the digital projectors...engineers working from a different mindset to reach the same end goal.

That's sound as more or less what I heard at the time. Kinoton was only able to stick its stuff on the front and to the back of the barco light engine. The Kinoton guy wanted to get more into the light engine 'to the front' from their lamphouse at the back, and claimed they didn't need so powerfull lamps, and stuff like that. There was indeed some engineering/integration friction a number of years ago, from what I could observe as a casual observer.

Quote:


TI has limited DCI type 2K licensing to four licenses with Barco working with Kinoton and Cinemeccanica....

TI added a fourth, Guess I haven't been paying attention, again;-).

Quote:


It is a very tiny market, which due to the financial crisis, we are only seeing 3D installs...not the additional 5 - 10,000 machines they hope to had installed by now.

Well at least it hasn't been consisting largely of freebies for the past few years now;-).

Quote:


I can only judge some posts based on my background as a dealer, manufacturer, technical management, former employee of one of the companies mentioned, member of SMPTE + other professional groups, past / present user of Torus, Surge / UPS protection, Rotan type of vent fans et cetera to see most of this as marketing, recycling and rediscovery...the ride is fun make sure your seat belt is tight.

"Cinema Tech Guy", prefer the 'Film God' from another forum;-).

http://www.typmiami.com/ dead...
post #85 of 141
5/16/09 at 12:46am
TVP - Theatre & Video Products is gone but it generated $30,000,000+ in projects and training local techs in 19 countries. Our present set up is a hardware company and a manufacturer agent represenative & service which are working as well as can be during this tight period.
post #86 of 141
5/16/09 at 3:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by odyssey View Post

I changed my mind and I am not going to post anything further about the Lumis to DP-1500 comparison. The way these threads develop, I would rather spend my time doing something else.

odyssey that is very sad but i full understand it

as i had for some time in my barco also the cr. mode inside and
a "good lumis" for 1 week i can also compare the units side by side.

i also not likt to open a war but i see it "more or less" the same way as you.

i think as cr. is a big issue everybody need to deside how important this
is for him.
some of the people that saw the side by side comparision between the
barco (not cr.modify this time) and the "good lumis with t2 lens"
at my big screen say that they like the lumis more than the barco some see it opposite and rate better convergence better color better optics a bit more details and all the rest higher than the "mutch better cr."the lumis can offer.

for some the barco is mutch to big and extensive to operate
some like or need the ils lens system the lumis not offer.
some will have a less good lumis when they need the t1 lens as still there
is no new t1 lens.

so all in all both pr. are good and have both advantages and
disadvantages.

if sim2 will have a new good t1 lens fix all the issues and i can get
a unit that have less than .75pixels convergenc at the corners
i will replace my rs1 with the lumis at my screen in my holiday house.

i talk with some top guys at barco about the possibility to implement
db to cinema pr. but i thing we will not see this as in cinemas
cr. is a no issue.

nevertheless we can dream about a dci dlp with cr. the lumis can do
but i think that will never happen.
post #87 of 141
5/16/09 at 7:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Fowler View Post

TVP - Theatre & Video Products is gone but it generated $30,000,000+ in projects and training local techs in 19 countries. Our present set up is a hardware company and a manufacturer agent represenative & service which are working as well as can be during this tight period.

What manufacturers are you currently acting as an agent for Richard?
post #88 of 141
5/16/09 at 8:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

odyssey that is very sad but i full understand it

as i had for some time in my barco also the cr. mode inside and
a "good lumis" for 1 week i can also compare the units side by side.

i also not likt to open a war but i see it "more or less" the same way as you.

i think as cr. is a big issue everybody need to deside how important this
is for him.
some of the people that saw the side by side comparision between the
barco (not cr.modify this time) and the "good lumis with t2 lens"
at my big screen say that they like the lumis more than the barco some see it opposite and rate better convergence better color better optics a bit more details and all the rest higher than the "mutch better cr."the lumis can offer.

for some the barco is mutch to big and extensive to operate
some like or need the ils lens system the lumis not offer.
some will have a less good lumis when they need the t1 lens as still there
is no new t1 lens.

so all in all both pr. are good and have both advantages and
disadvantages.

if sim2 will have a new good t1 lens fix all the issues and i can get
a unit that have less than .75pixels convergenc at the corners
i will replace my rs1 with the lumis at my screen in my holiday house.

i talk with some top guys at barco about the possibility to implement
db to cinema pr. but i thing we will not see this as in cinemas
cr. is a no issue.

nevertheless we can dream about a dci dlp with cr. the lumis can do
but i think that will never happen.

I think the fact that the Lumis did as well as it did against a DCI unit speaks volumes.

The one thing I could not tolerate is a misconverged unit. This has been one of the things that has allowed me to fall in love with the HT 5000. I watch way too much back and white to tolerate fringing not to mentioin the the loss of resolution . The very very high contrast of the Lumis is hard to resist but I would not be interested in trading that for something else in performance.

Art
post #89 of 141
5/16/09 at 9:17am
yes convergence is very important.

my barco has not more than .25 pixels over the whole screen.

" very good " is .25 pixels in the center and .5 pixels at the corners.

" good " is .5 pixels in the center and .75 at the corners.

everything more than this reduce the visible quality as it reduce
high freq.

it will be interesting when we will see " some day " a 4k dlp pr. and how
good the convergence is there
post #90 of 141
5/16/09 at 9:42am
I agree with both of you, and fully understand, from experience, the importance of a well converged unit. My HT5k was basically the same as Arts, ie zero over most of the screen with .25 at the edge. I was very lucky with the Lumis I tested, and anyone who saw the images I posted knows exactly what I mean. Its MC adjustment can be very effective too, but that depends on your level of error.

The problem with the Lumis is its low cost. Thats why there is no pro level zoom, and no factory adjustable DMD mounts. Im guessing that most people who will throw down $38k would throw down a little extra to have DMD mounts like the 5k. That then throws up the other issue, the insistence on keeping that small footprint. Im not 100% sure if there is sufficient room to take the bigger mounts.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the DCI optics are better than the Lumis. That was actually an observation I also made when I shot the Lumis against the 5k.

Thats the problem for me personally. I want more of everything, all in one uber machine. Who doesn't.
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