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Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD may be the answer to SOTA playback of BD

post #1 of 106
5/5/09 at 12:10am
Thread Starter 
Received my Elite BDP-09FD a week ago and the picture in BD is the best I've seen. Better color saturation, black level, and more three dimensionality. It will do btb & wtw. For SD DVD it seems to best my Compli in 480i SDI into my VP-50pro as well .
On the audio side my first test was with Slumdog. Over HDMI into the Integra DTC-9.8 the slam and dynamic range was palpable. This film blew me away with its dynamics and bottom end since I was expecting a light weight soundtrack, but it was far from it. I have since hooked up the analogue inputs and they may be even better. If you have a Six Shooter, or other fine multi channel line stage, this is the answer to the new codec dilemma. Let the 09FD do the decoding and DA conversion and send the output to the SS which is one fine analogue line stage. This machine might even negate the need for HDMI inputs for True HD & DTS-MA decoding. I believe it's better than the Integra doing this duty. I would like to compare it with the best HDMI SSPs out there. With its balanced Wolfson DACs (eight two channel units in total) and a separate power supply for the analogue it may just be one of the best outputs of the new codecs to be available. The only caveat is you need a multi channel line stage to control the output level. The Six Shooter is the perfect solution to this. I believe my Integra can now go into someone else's system.
A stunning achievement for BD. We finally have a player worthy of a SOTA HT system. Regards, Norm
And oh, it does 480i over HDMI if you wish, but the SD DVD processing is so good I just run it in 1080p24.
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post #2 of 106
5/6/09 at 2:38pm
Intriguing, what does the six-shooter go for these days?

My projector has 12 bit HDMI Input, I guess I would also see an improvement on the HD video side?
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post #3 of 106
5/6/09 at 2:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post

Intriguing, what does the six-shooter go for these days?

My projector has 12 bit HDMI Input, I guess I would also see an improvement on the HD video side?

The source on the disk is still 4:2:0 8bit. The master was only 4:2:2 ten bit. So you can interpolate up to 48bits if you want but you can never get back the gray sacle that was lost in the encoding - only guess at it.
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post #4 of 106
5/6/09 at 5:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post

Intriguing, what does the six-shooter go for these days?

My projector has 12 bit HDMI Input, I guess I would also see an improvement on the HD video side?

SS = $2,500.00 retail. Makes one helluva 5.1 pre/pro with this good of DA conversion of the new high bit codecs.
Regarding the 16 bit processing into HDMI 1.3 I will leave that to some of our Video Science experts. I just know this is the best BD and SD to 1080p picture I've seen. Regards, Norm
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post #5 of 106
5/6/09 at 7:19pm
can you show me your dbt on dimensionality or on the BD in general? Thanks so much.

i think all BDs look the same on any player i've seen and would like proof of something different.
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post #6 of 106
5/6/09 at 9:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithR View Post

can you show me your dbt on dimensionality or on the BD in general? Thanks so much.

i think all BDs look the same on any player i've seen and would like proof of something different.

Keith, no DBTs from me. I'm not a believer. I do my testing using long term methods. Accept if you will or not. This player is different. Regards, Norm
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post #7 of 106
5/6/09 at 10:52pm
I think he's kidding. Maybe
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post #8 of 106
5/7/09 at 4:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I think he's kidding. Maybe

Maybe, maybe not..

In my eyes, 1080P24 and lossless (HDMI) audio are what most folks are doing with their BLu Ray players. So, yes, all players will look and sound alike if outputting the native resolution and lossless HDMI sound (bitstream)

Scaling / deinterlacing down to 720P, 1080P, etc, , etc is player dependent. Players like the 09 will havean advantage over lesser players.

I will soon own a PJ that will do 1080P24... So, a $2500 player is a waste for me... But those with older PJs and analog outputs will benefit from an 09.
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post #9 of 106
5/7/09 at 5:10am
POSITIVE> It is a very nice clean high s/n ratio hdmi picture and changing the output on the fly very nice.

NEGATIVE> Not compatible with D-Box=NO GOOD. You should never lock yourself out of d-box potential because (mark my words) resistance is futile, sooner or later you will own D-Box if you are really serious about HT.
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post #10 of 106
5/7/09 at 8:06am
So Jeff, which projector is this?

BTW: now running 24p into the Qualia without any problem using the Lumagen as an interface. Had another PJ in here running 24p (as opposed to psf) - FWIW - no difference. Went through the schematics on the Qualia (bought them through a service center) the output is the same - the 24psf is only the transmission format - the display format is pure 24p - Lumagen is PHENOMINAL!!!

(Waiting on the Oppo 83 to show up as well as the Theta HDMI upgrade though to finally finish things up - still haven't found a PJ I like as much as the Qualia - most lenses are inferior and there is noticable distortion and fringing of which I have zero on the Qualia).
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post #11 of 106
5/7/09 at 8:19am
The real shame is that they didn't specify a mode for sending the raw bit stream out for more advanced video/audio processing down stream. Plus, imagine how easy it would be, for instance, to wirelessly transmit a compressed video signal to a projector versus the uncompressed stream.
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post #12 of 106
5/7/09 at 8:48am
Hey Peter,

I'm installing a Lumis. After putting up a 14' screen, the Qualia lacks the lumens to light it up. At 10' wide with my first screen, it lit it up easily in low lamp mode. . The lumis will give me more light, CR & Ansi. It was an easy choice. I am aware 24sf is theoretically identical to 24p. The Qualia picture is killer. I really needed more light. My screen is 82 sq ft (compared to 42 sq ft on my 10' screen). I have the Oppo 83. Killer also.
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post #13 of 106
5/7/09 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

POSITIVE> ... sooner or later you will own D-Box if you are really serious about HT.

I think it's quite possible to be serious about HT and not be interested in owning D-BOX.
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post #14 of 106
5/7/09 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Johnson View Post

I think it's quite possible to be serious about HT and not be interested in owning D-BOX.

I am in that boat, despite trying it multiple times. I don't want attention to be drawn to the chair I am sitting on while watching a movie .
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post #15 of 106
5/7/09 at 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Hey Peter,

I am aware 24sf is theoretically identical to 24p.

Yes as far as your viewing expereince it is identical. The projector (any on the market) will only display P anyway. 24sF is a professional transmission format that is extremely rare on the consumer side. It was developed to maintain compatability with 1080i systems but carries the same identical image as does true 24P.
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post #16 of 106
5/7/09 at 12:47pm
Tyree/Norm

I see that you are a dealer for Theta and Parasound, as well as Pioneer.

It was my understanding that the Theta six shooter could not run on its own, without the Casablanca. Is this true?

Since the six shooter is 5.1 out max, it would seem that the new Parasound Halo P7 would be a better fit for the 09 when using 7.1 analogue out?

Have you tried running the 09 through the new Parasound P7 7.1 multichannel analogue pre amp?

Wouldn't it be fun to try the analogue outs from the 09 into a pure SOTA 7.1 analogue pre-amp from the likes of Audio Research Reference series calibre?
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post #17 of 106
5/7/09 at 1:00pm
Can I get an explanation how the calibrated color and and black level can be different from even a PS3 ?

Art
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post #18 of 106
5/7/09 at 1:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty/twenty View Post

Tyree/Norm

I
Since the six shooter is 5.1 out max, it would seem that the new Parasound Halo P7 would be a better fit for the 09 when using 7.1 analogue out?

You can use two Six shooters like I do for 12 channels.
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post #19 of 106
5/7/09 at 1:24pm
Bulldogger,

That seems a bit like overkill to me, but who knows. Are you running them on their own, without the Casablanca?

That's 5 large retail vs 2 for the Parasond p7.

Any chance of a competitive 8 shooter coming along?
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post #20 of 106
5/7/09 at 2:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by r johnson View Post

i think it's quite possible to be serious about ht and not be interested in owning d-box.

blasphemy-the horror!!!!:d
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post #21 of 106
5/7/09 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I am in that boat, despite trying it multiple times. I don't want attention to be drawn to the chair I am sitting on while watching a movie .

I suggest you try it somewhere else besides the trade shows, perhaps a room where it has been implemented with great sound and picture or even with a good pair of Dolby Headphones (IMO d-box should use them D headphones at the shows to disconnect a bit from the show floor)-properly installed the chair does not call attention to itself. I too find a bit hoakey the demos at cedia show floor with a group of conventionists moving in syncro fashion- at home the whole experience becomes integrated very nicely with the AV and the mechanism is transparent to the user...

These latest transfers for Blue Ray are simply spectacular, the 4th D.
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post #22 of 106
5/7/09 at 3:18pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Can I get an explanation how the calibrated color and and black level can be different from even a PS3 ?

Art

Art, this thing has 16 bit video processing. Now I must admit that whether this improves the picture into an 8 or 10 bit projecter is beyond me. I'm just reporting on my observation. It is clearly however one of the best SD DVD players I have seen. Maybe one of our video scientists can answer the BD picture issue. On the BD Player thread observations are running likewise for picture and sound. Regards, Norm
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post #23 of 106
5/7/09 at 3:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

And oh, it does 480i over HDMI if you wish, but the SD DVD processing is so good I just run it in 1080p24.

It was announced some time ago that the player would use Marvell Qdeo.

http://news.prnewswire.com/ViewConte...4922792&EDATE=

I haven't followed this player's development and ultimate release discussion and wondered if in fact that turned out to be what is used. Once I saw the price, I quit following it.

Chris
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post #24 of 106
5/7/09 at 4:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty/twenty View Post

Tyree/Norm

I see that you are a dealer for Theta and Parasound, as well as Pioneer.

It was my understanding that the Theta six shooter could not run on its own, without the Casablanca. Is this true?

Since the six shooter is 5.1 out max, it would seem that the new Parasound Halo P7 would be a better fit for the 09 when using 7.1 analogue out?

Have you tried running the 09 through the new Parasound P7 7.1 multichannel analogue pre amp?

Wouldn't it be fun to try the analogue outs from the 09 into a pure SOTA 7.1 analogue pre-amp from the likes of Audio Research Reference series calibre?

You do need a Casablanca III to run a Six Shooter. Bulldogger is correct you can run two SSs for 12 channels.
Any receiver or SSP with a 5.1 or 7.1 analogue input will work with this unit. You don't need HDMI for high quality audio. I would imagine that very few SSPs and fewer Receivers will equal the analogue outputs of this BD player. If you have a high quality Multi Channel Line Stage it somewhat negates the need for an SSP with 1.3 HDMI processing. I see it as bringing audiophile quality film sound to anyone with a fine Multi Line Stage. And yes I think the ARC with this unit would kill.
After all what else needs HDMI processing besides BD? Do we see Streaming, Sat or Cable having enough bandwidth to transfer True HD or DTS-MA any time soon? Regards, Norm
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post #25 of 106
5/7/09 at 5:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard View Post

It was announced some time ago that the player would use Marvell Qdeo.

http://news.prnewswire.com/ViewConte...4922792&EDATE=

I haven't followed this player's development and ultimate release discussion and wondered if in fact that turned out to be what is used. Once I saw the price, I quit following it.

Chris

Chris, the 09 does use Qdeo processing, in fact I understand it uses two sets of it. Regards, Norm
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post #26 of 106
5/7/09 at 5:08pm
Thread Starter 
From Chris's news post:
"At the core of the Marvell 88DE2710, Qdeo delivers rich, high-definition video quality through a suite of advanced QuietVideo(TM) technologies, providing quiet and natural video, free of noise and artifacts. Per-pixel noise and compression artifact reduction removes noise inherent in digital video. Per-pixel motion-adaptive 3D de-interlacing removes jaggies and eliminates feathering."
This may explain the PQ with the 09. I believe it's the only BD player using this technology. Regards, Norm
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post #27 of 106
5/7/09 at 5:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

From Chris's news post:
"At the core of the Marvell 88DE2710, Qdeo delivers rich, high-definition video quality through a suite of advanced QuietVideo(TM) technologies, providing quiet and natural video, free of noise and artifacts. Per-pixel noise and compression artifact reduction removes noise inherent in digital video. Per-pixel motion-adaptive 3D de-interlacing removes jaggies and eliminates feathering."
This may explain the PQ with the 09. I believe it's the only BD player using this technology. Regards, Norm

But BD video is not interlaced. And removing noise softens the video no matter how well done.
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post #28 of 106
5/7/09 at 5:27pm
Norm,

My thoughts being a high quality 7.1 channel pure analogue line stage may kill any and all AVP's when the 09 is left to its own devices, running multichannel analogue audio into an audiophile grade, pure multichannel analogue unit. After all, less is usually more in high end audio repro. IE, what if ARC took the awesome REF series pre-amp and added 5.1 channels to it? Let the big, high tech companies do the heavy lifting on the processing within the blu-ray player, and let the small high end companies work the magic on the analogue outs. Best of both worlds.

Thus far, the Parasound P7 is the only available choice. Even though Kal Rubinson was extremely impressed with this unit, I'm wondering what would happen if the big dogs barked at this?

Having to use a full Casablanca in order to run a simple analogue 5.1 channel 6 Shooter is defeating the purpose here.
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post #29 of 106
5/7/09 at 5:40pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty/twenty View Post

Norm,

My thoughts being a high quality 7.1 channel pure analogue line stage may kill any and all AVP's when the 09 is left to its own devices, running multichannel analogue audio into an audiophile grade, pure multichannel analogue unit. After all, less is usually more in high end audio repro. IE, what if ARC took the awesome REF series pre-amp and added 5.1 channels to it? Let the big, high tech companies do the heavy lifting on the processing within the blu-ray player, and let the small high end companies work the magic on the analogue outs. Best of both worlds.

Thus far, the Parasound P7 is the only available choice. Even though Kal Rubinson was extremely impressed with this unit, I'm wondering what would happen if the big dogs barked at this?

Having to use a full Casablanca in order to run a simple analogue 5.1 channel 6 Shooter is defeating the purpose here.

I can see OB being interested in a 7.1 REF 3.
As for Theta, the SS has been reted one of the best Multi Channel Line Stages and the CB III is up there for Red Book CD, DD, DTS & CS decoding and DA conversion with Extreme DACs. The combo is competative with anything extanct if you have a BD player capable of SOTA analogue output of True HD & DTS-MA. The 09 seems to do just that. We also use it as our SD DVD Player with its Qdeo processing, and as a CD Transport into the CB III. It's a true one box solution with the exception of DSD. In the here and now I couldn't be happier, and I can't think of a better solution for us at this time . Regards, Norm
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post #30 of 106
5/7/09 at 5:46pm
I just don't see what the Casablanca is adding in the above scenario, other than taking up empty rack space.

Tell Theta to make an 8 shooter that can run on its own.
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