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Samsung PN5xB650 Owner Thread - Page 160

post #4771 of 5062
Still perfecto. Seriously. PN50B650. No Buzzing. No hum. Gets warm....not hot. Some image retention noticeable if the screen is black. Let me rephrase that. After a 4 hour Yankee game on YES, the score and pitch count button shows some on a black screen. Completely unnoticeable with content. I don't see any other kind of image retention. Completely goes away after watching normal content for a little while or after using the scroll bars. My take on image retention is that if it can be seen only when the screen is black and not during normal content, is it really there or is it only in your head? Sort of like the tree falling in the forest conundrum.

I did not use the slides. Only turned my contrast down to about 65. 50 is way too low unless you watch in a dark room. No way I'm doing that. I turned the contrast up by 5 every week. Now running about 90 or 95. Can't remember which. Doesn't pay to waste any time being paranoid about image retention and break-in. Just enjoy your TV.

I may look to get it professionally calibrated after I get a blue ray player. Until then I will probably use a calibration disc but I'm very satisfied with the picture as it is now.

Added a Yamaha YAS-71BL soundbar back in February. Very pleased with overall sound. Was going through the channels Saturday night and came across Star Wars. Have the DVD but have not watched on the plasma until now. Could not believe how much the sub that came with the bar added to the enjoyment of the movie. I regularly put it in Sports mode when watching baseball. Widens the sound stage considerably while keeping the announcers in the center.

Best money I have spent in a long time was on this TV. I am glad I waited and got a good price.
post #4772 of 5062
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT-Rebel View Post

Still perfecto. Seriously. PN50B650. No Buzzing. No hum. Gets warm....not hot. Some image retention noticeable if the screen is black. Let me rephrase that. After a 4 hour Yankee game on YES, the score and pitch count button shows some on a black screen. Completely unnoticeable with content. I don't see any other kind of image retention. Completely goes away after watching normal content for a little while or after using the scroll bars. My take on image retention is that if it can be seen only when the screen is black and not during normal content, is it really there or is it only in your head? Sort of like the tree falling in the forest conundrum.

I did not use the slides. Only turned my contrast down to about 65. 50 is way too low unless you watch in a dark room. No way I'm doing that. I turned the contrast up by 5 every week. Now running about 90 or 95. Can't remember which. Doesn't pay to waste any time being paranoid about image retention and break-in. Just enjoy your TV.

I may look to get it professionally calibrated after I get a blue ray player. Until then I will probably use a calibration disc but I'm very satisfied with the picture as it is now.

Added a Yamaha YAS-71BL soundbar back in February. Very pleased with overall sound. Was going through the channels Saturday night and came across Star Wars. Have the DVD but have not watched on the plasma until now. Could not believe how much the sub that came with the bar added to the enjoyment of the movie. I regularly put it in Sports mode when watching baseball. Widens the sound stage considerably while keeping the announcers in the center.

Best money I have spent in a long time was on this TV. I am glad I waited and got a good price.

I'm concerned about image retention because I'm a gamer. Having the heads up display in one place for hours straight is scary, plus it's annoying when there is a dark cutscene and the ghost of your HUD is all over the screen.
post #4773 of 5062
So ya, I watched a hockey game at a friends house. He has the Samsung 450..ish tv and his blacks were darker than mine. Is that normal or should the 650 outperform the 450 MLL wise?
post #4774 of 5062
Quote:
Originally Posted by XFistsClenchedX View Post

I'm concerned about image retention because I'm a gamer. Having the heads up display in one place for hours straight is scary, plus it's annoying when there is a dark cutscene and the ghost of your HUD is all over the screen.

Plain old CRT's had the same issue. I would venture that if you game a lot then you are better off getting an LCD. No image retention issues and almost as good a picture as a plasma. I don't game on the big Plasma so PQ for non-gaming media content is the highest priority for me.
post #4775 of 5062
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT-Rebel View Post

Plain old CRT's had the same issue. I would venture that if you game a lot then you are better off getting an LCD. No image retention issues and almost as good a picture as a plasma. I don't game on the big Plasma so PQ for non-gaming media content is the highest priority for me.

When I bought my rear projection tv, I was really concerned about burn-in, but never noticed any image retention or burn-in. I was hoping that the image retention wouldn't be that big of a deal by this point. If I had known what I know now, I might have gotten an LCD. I hate the motion blur on LCD tvs though.
post #4776 of 5062
I stole this from the panny thread but my tv looks pretty close to this, is that about right for black levels?

post #4777 of 5062
Which one? Hopefully not the rear set. My blacks don't look anything like that bright in the same environment. More like the front one, only darker. I assume they are showing 0 IRE? Some of the post-rise set owners describe being able to read near the screen from the amount of light. Very sad.
post #4778 of 5062
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1080pee View Post

I stole this from the panny thread but my tv looks pretty close to this, is that about right for black levels?


Eh?

What settings are you using?

Dynamic Contrast increases black levels
As does increasing Gamma
Increasing Brightness

Get yourself a decent BD or DVD calibration disc (DVE Basics or something similar) and calibrate it from that. Make sure all digital enhancements (dynamic contrast, edge enhancements etc) are turned off. Even many Disney BluRay movies like Wall-E, Up and Cars have calibration test patterns and an explanation on how to use them on the disc in setup or extras.
post #4779 of 5062
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

Some of the post-rise set owners describe being able to read near the screen from the amount of light. Very sad.

I remember trying to decide between these two sets so I bought both to decide which one to use for the rec room. glad i went with the b650s instead of g10s. I will say i havent noticed a rise in blacks yet but i just think the samsung pq is better and I never have had a buzz problem.
post #4780 of 5062
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1080pee View Post

I stole this from the panny thread but my tv looks pretty close to this, is that about right for black levels?


I can see what your problem is right away. Brightness and contrast are so low you can't see any picture.

Instead of obsessing over how a black screen with no media content looks, calibrate your set either using a disc or a Pro calibrator and sit back and enjoy the picture. You really aren't able to enjoy your set if all you can do is constantly compare black levels. If you think that black levels are the be all and end all of a good picture then you have been sold a bill of goods.
post #4781 of 5062
Quote:
Originally Posted by mistaforty View Post

I remember trying to decide between these two sets so I bought both to decide which one to use for the rec room. glad i went with the b650s instead of g10s. I will say i havent noticed a rise in blacks yet but i just think the samsung pq is better and I never have had a buzz problem.

Great choice, that's for sure. Glad it's working out. I know I love mine (delivered March 24th) and grow more impressed with its capabilities every day. I do have a directional buzz but it is getting fainter all the time and doesn't affect any of my seating .

I seriously doubt you will ever see a black level rise you can effectively measure with the B650. Many calibrators have stated that Samsung sets, as well as other non-Panny brands, are simply not subject to this kind of adjustment affecting innate black level. If anything were to change due to normal aging, it should certainly be nothing you would ever notice, even with a 0IRE screen.
post #4782 of 5062
Keep in mind the pictures above you are showing to others here are being viewed on LCD monitors, the majority of which haven't been calibrated (perhaps not at all).
post #4783 of 5062
As a matter of fact i think ill actually have time to input some settings this weekend (finally ive had them since November lol) any suggestions? I mean ive been reading the thread for months and i know where to FIND them but experience wise what are the top 2 or 3. asking 50 owners and 58 owners and i know the results will vary by set.
post #4784 of 5062
Do you have the collective settings chart?

Here is the link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...2&d=1267120464

I have not tried them all and have, of course, played around with some of my own. But I have a better tolerance for some of the blue bias that comes with Warm 1 and Movie Mode rather than Warm 2. Because of that I also don't mind playing with other modes like Eco or Standard with some level of Dynamic Contrast, especially with film sources, even TV movies. Last night however I plugged in column 10 Color settings completely and am very happy with the results. Both Warm 1 and Warm 2 look very nice and serve well depending on specific content. I am not a 'one group of settings for all purposes' kind of guy. Input types vary and PQ changes from channel to channel. But so far these settings are perfectly fine for TV with very nice skin tones with either temp-Color Tone. I reduce color to 42-45 with most any settings anyway as I do not like over-saturated color.

Plug some settings from the chart in and give them a try.
post #4785 of 5062
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT-Rebel View Post

I can see what your problem is right away. Brightness and contrast are so low you can't see any picture.

Instead of obsessing over how a black screen with no media content looks, calibrate your set either using a disc or a Pro calibrator and sit back and enjoy the picture. You really aren't able to enjoy your set if all you can do is constantly compare black levels. If you think that black levels are the be all and end all of a good picture then you have been sold a bill of goods.

I didnt take that pic, I got it from the Panasonic thread. Its hard to tell through the internet but im not freaking out either, merely wondering how my set compares to you guys while im still in the 30 day return window.

The thing is I'm coming from a CRT RP so black levels jump out at me. I notice when playing Red dead redemption that dark indoor areas blend in together (black crush), thats really the only time it bothers me. The store model seems to have darker blacks as well as the other set I had although I didnt notice til I got this back. I'll figure it out I guess. Regardless, I won't be trading this model for another one, especially after watching Avatar on blu ray
post #4786 of 5062
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1080pee View Post

I didnt take that pic, I got it from the Panasonic thread. Its hard to tell through the internet but im not freaking out either, merely wondering how my set compares to you guys while im still in the 30 day return window.

The thing is I'm coming from a CRT RP so black levels jump out at me. I notice when playing Red dead redemption that dark indoor areas blend in together (black crush), thats really the only time it bothers me. The store model seems to have darker blacks as well as the other set I had although I didnt notice til I got this back. I'll figure it out I guess. Regardless, I won't be trading this model for another one, especially after watching Avatar on blu ray

ambient lighting conditions also alter your eyes' perception of contrast/black level.

dig through this thread and try out various users' settings as a starting point, then calibrating with a "THX optimizer" on a dvd or blu-ray.

And don't choose just by punching in the numbers one after the other. Enjoy some content for a few hours, then try with different settings, more content, etc.
post #4787 of 5062
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1080pee View Post

I didnt take that pic, I got it from the Panasonic thread. Its hard to tell through the internet but im not freaking out either, merely wondering how my set compares to you guys while im still in the 30 day return window.

The thing is I'm coming from a CRT RP so black levels jump out at me. I notice when playing Red dead redemption that dark indoor areas blend in together (black crush), thats really the only time it bothers me. The store model seems to have darker blacks as well as the other set I had although I didnt notice til I got this back. I'll figure it out I guess. Regardless, I won't be trading this model for another one, especially after watching Avatar on blu ray

With Red Dead Redemption, is your PS3 set to RGB Limited, and your television set to HDMI Black Level: Low?
post #4788 of 5062
Quote:
Originally Posted by velvet396 View Post

ambient lighting conditions also alter your eyes' perception of contrast/black level.

dig through this thread and try out various users' settings as a starting point, then calibrating with a "THX optimizer" on a dvd or blu-ray.

And don't choose just by punching in the numbers one after the other. Enjoy some content for a few hours, then try with different settings, more content, etc.

Good advice, I was intially against using Warm 2 but after a while of watching content with it, going back to standard looks worse to me. You definitely need to give it time before you find the settings you like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeonus View Post

With Red Dead Redemption, is your PS3 set to RGB Limited, and your television set to HDMI Black Level: Low?

Yes and yes. Blacks look great as long as there are other colors included but when the majority of the screen is black, thats when it looks illuminated to me. For example, when the game is saving (RDR) and it shows "Saving' in the top right, the black screen looks backlit.
post #4789 of 5062
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1080pee View Post

Good advice, I was intially against using Warm 2 but after a while of watching content with it, going back to standard looks worse to me. You definitely need to give it time before you find the settings you like.



Yes and yes. Blacks look great as long as there are other colors included but when the majority of the screen is black, thats when it looks illuminated to me. For example, when the game is saving (RDR) and it shows "Saving' in the top right, the black screen looks backlit.

Oh, I'm sorry. I misinterpreted what you were saying.

Yeah, the B650 isn't the best on all dark screens. This is where black level becomes important, as it tends to lose some shadow detail on these screens.

My B650 (over 2000 hours) has "glowing" black as well.
post #4790 of 5062
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

Do you have the collective settings chart?

Here is the link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...2&d=1267120464

I have not tried them all and have, of course, played around with some of my own. But I have a better tolerance for some of the blue bias that comes with Warm 1 and Movie Mode rather than Warm 2. Because of that I also don't mind playing with other modes like Eco or Standard with some level of Dynamic Contrast, especially with film sources, even TV movies. Last night however I plugged in column 10 Color settings completely and am very happy with the results. Both Warm 1 and Warm 2 look very nice and serve well depending on specific content. I am not a 'one group of settings for all purposes' kind of guy. Input types vary and PQ changes from channel to channel. But so far these settings are perfectly fine for TV with very nice skin tones with either temp-Color Tone. I reduce color to 42-45 with most any settings anyway as I do not like over-saturated color.

Plug some settings from the chart in and give them a try.

thanks no i hadnt seen that chart before, and today ill have some time to check it out.
post #4791 of 5062
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post


FYI, I have a vertical band a few inches wide, 1/3 of the way in from the right side, which is darker in color visible only with one or two gray screens in the near black category. It is never visible with normal content or even on startup. Since I had zero pixel issues or any other serious problems, I kept the panel.

I've had mine for about 2 weeks and have this same issue. I can't see it at all until there's no content on the screen. It's in the same place as the following bar defect from the service manual.


Has anyone had the band turn into this bar? I'm thinking about returning the set even though it doesn't bother me at all when watching anything. I really don't want to return it because I have 100+ hours of break in invested.
LL
post #4792 of 5062
I saw that too in the service manual. Good to know if it does actually fail. Should be a simple fix. Or a nice replacement for a newer model. Hate to lose these blacks though for something with higher MLL.
post #4793 of 5062
So how long before you can watch 2.35:1 material without worrying about burn in?
post #4794 of 5062
I have now had this tv for about 8 months and here is my verdict for the Cinema Smooth so far:

(I actually have the European counterpart PS58B680 but it has been told many times that the European B680-series is identical to US B650-series, so all the same pros / cons concerns this European counterpart too.

I use basicly just little altered settings from Tom Huffman's review. I have also tested the DVD HD Basics, which seem to confirm that these settings are close enough to standards. I only raised the Cell-light from 8 to 9. Otherwise, the settings are identifical to Huffman's review.

Movie
Warm2
Cell-light: 9
Contrast: 95
Brightness: 50
Sharpness: 3
Color: 50
Tint: 50/50
Color space: Auto
Gamma: 0
Dynamic mode etc: all OFF

Now, the Cinema Smooth:

- If ON => black levels rise. It's actually easier to spot this from actual images which consists of many levels of shade vs. all black images / black bars in widescreen movies. This can be partly countered by lowering brightness, but it does not make the picture completely the same.

- If ON => Lot of dithering appears to screen. It is like the normal plasma dithering is multiplied for at least three. However, for the viewing distance of 10 feets, I cannot notice it properly, but when I move my couch closer to screen, about 6 feets from tv (my bd-watching distance), it comes visible. It does something to the picture that makes the picture looks little restless and unstable.

- If ON => Video lags behind the audio. The processing in TV takes about 100ms more with CS ON, so I have to add audio delay 100ms on my AV Receiver. So this con is tackled with this setting. Well almost, because it seems that the amount of video lag changes depending on the part of the film and the length of the current dialog sentence in hand, so it's pretty hard to adjust the sync to perfect. But I have found average of 100ms is close enough.

- Switching feature ON and OFF and back ON etc works on fly. I'm not sure has this been from my day of purchase (october 2009). But there has been three firmware updates and at least with the latest firmware (3000.2) (Q1/2010) it works. So I can change the CS On and Off and notice the effect immediately. I can see how the black levels change and the dithering disappears and vice versa.

Until lately, I have kept the Cinema Smooth ON despite the above mentioned "features" and watched around 50-100 bd-movies with CS ON. I have tried to ignore the black level rises etc. and yes the PQ is impressive even with CS ON.

But I disabled the CS for last couple of bd-movies and, now I'm more pleased to black levels and the PQ. The picture seems to be more stable now.

However, the problem with scenes of "panorama"-style panning is of course there with judder. And now when my eyes are already used to the smoothness of CS ON, these kind of scenes really distracts my eyes with CS OFF. But for now, I think that I value more of the PQ itself and black levels with the cost of losing little smoothness in certain scenes. I also hope that when the time goes on and I watch more movies, my eyes "will forget" the smoothness effect and gets used to the judder of some scenes.

It's obvious that this feature is never going to be fixed with firmware update. So we have just to live with it and choose either a little judder with superb PQ or no judder and little bit of decreased PQ.

What kind of experiences for example Aeonus, Citivas and of course anyone else have with this Cinema Smooth feature and what is your habits now when this TV has been out for about a year?
post #4795 of 5062
Quote:
Originally Posted by claymanhb View Post

I've had mine for about 2 weeks and have this same issue. I can't see it at all until there's no content on the screen. It's in the same place as the following bar defect from the service manual.


Has anyone had the band turn into this bar? I'm thinking about returning the set even though it doesn't bother me at all when watching anything. I really don't want to return it because I have 100+ hours of break in invested.

First time I see this picture from the service manual. I really hope the band that I have doesn't turn into this. I can sort of deal with the band, but I would really like to know if its truly a defect on my tv or if its something that I have to deal with. Like others have said, it doesn't really affect the picture when watching normal content.
post #4796 of 5062
I experience the same things you do, although there is no dithering on the black bars of a movie.

I can't stand the loss of black for a smoother picture (even though I do enjoy the smoothness). I leave it off.

I can't comment on the audio delay, though.
post #4797 of 5062
I dont notice black level change with CS on, nor do I notice the additional dithering...what I do notice, however, is that the low level buzz on my set picks up pretty significantly. I go back and forth between CS on or off, but ultimately, the hightened buzz is more distracting to me than the judder.
post #4798 of 5062
As a new owner of the 58B650 and my first plasma, I have a question on the black level relative to all black screens. It seems that when the TV senses an all black 0 IRE screen it "shuts off" the phosphors completely and produces a very black screen - essentially invisible with the lights off. I can see this when running the break in slides on the 0 IRE slide. This is much darker than the typical black I see on the black bars or the black screen that appears while flipping channels.

I have seen this very deep black when watching Cars on blu-ray. At the very beginning it starts with a black screen and Lightning talking. The black starts out at what I would call typical black and then drops to that very deep black and then back to the normal black before a real image comes up.

Is this normal behavior for the 650? Does everyone have this experience? I was hoping that very deep black would be the normal black level which would truly be extremely dark.
post #4799 of 5062
No, that very dark screen, as you already know, is not 0 IRE. That is no signal display below set threshold of Brightness, in common parlance. You can adjust it so that 0 IRE stays onscreen by putting a 0 IRE screen up and adjusting Brightness 1 click at a time to test. This is something you have to check for continually when calibrating as Contrast, Brightness, Gamma and Color temp changes can all have an effect. I recommend the AVS HD disc available on this site for free download. It has many useful screens and a section that contains near black in 1% increments.

When using calibration software, on the greyscale or RGB graph, when RGB lines enter straight vertically from top or bottom at 10 IRE instead of angling in from the 0 IRE position, it usually means the 0 IRE screen was below threshold and the true verification if that is the case will be the Y reading of 0's for that value of IRE. I have seen many graphs like this on this site and often wonder if the people that recorded them even took notice.
post #4800 of 5062
FYI, i'd say i currently have ~300-400 hours on my set, I'd swear the straight-on directional buzz has been reduced significantly. Initially, the buzz would be low when turning on the set, then pick up after 45 minutes or so.

Now, I come home from work, see the set is turned on, and ask my wife if she just turned it on, only to be pretty surprised to hear its been on all day.
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