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The Good, The Bad and the Ugly comparison *PIX* - Page 3

post #61 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

Of all the people on this forum, you have made Fist Pumping for the studios a full time job. You are here all day, every day, never stopping and one wonders why. In fact, you are now powting more than any other member, by far.

Most of us here do not want to bury ourselves in the sands of a pretend reality where massive amounts of DVNR are needed, but we also do not want to argue with people who refuse to see reality, who continue to say that noise reducing grain until it is gone is perfectly OK because the director is dead and cannot be here and because "it's better than the DVD."

In fact, many have left this forum in frustration because they simply cannot take it anymore. I am close to that because AVS, once THE place to be for truth, is turning into a Joe Six Pack land of studio apologists who strive for the lowest possible quality. Privately, numerous members here are at the end of their rope and are perfectly justified in that.

This film, along with the TREK films, has been given the shaft and looks nothing like the original film elements. It no longer looks like any film would look because it has been so massively scrubbed of grain and more importantly, detail.

There is nothing you can say or do to change that. These Xylon screen captures only add in your face proof to what I and others have seen with our own eyes. We saw the film in a theater and now we are NOT seeing that film on BD. Instead, we have a pale pretendor that looks like a low resolution video game.

It's criminal. The evidence is overwheleming, but in an era where someone clearly saying or doing something on video is explained or "spun" away by partison cheerleaders, what else can one expect...?

The moon is made of cheese.

I understand the point you are trying to make. I think what you have to realize is that to some people...better than DVD is good enough.

Is that acceptable to you? No. Personally, I'm not happy with the results for this release...but I have no other copies of it. I will probably pick it up just to have it.

The bottom line is that the folks who believe that "better than DVD is good enough" deserve just as much respect as anyone else here. They should be able to post here without fear of attack. It's simply their opinion and they are just as welcome to their opinions as you are to yours.

Fine...the "better than DVD is good enough" crowd happen to be running others off. Consider this however, the folks on the other side of the argument aren't exactly helping the situation. It doesn't make for a very inviting environment. There is a complete lack of respect for one another from both sides.

This is not an issue with only one viewpoint. Let's all attempt to understand that...show some respect for each other...and move on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

It's criminal.

Matt, you didn't really mean this did you?

This type of thing has got to stop. I understand that you are upset and understandably so. Criminal this is not however. Let's keep things in perspective. Comparing a poor BD release to a criminal offense is way over the top.
post #62 of 521
No, I will not dial it back. No thanks. I make no apologies here because it seems we are again at war (the studios vs people with a brain). I am as angry about this issue as I was the widescreen war. It would be one thing if the apologists actually would admit they were wrong when the proof was in the pudding on a release like PATTON or STAR TREK IV, but like the Laserdisc fanatics who refused to accept DVD's superiority or the pan & scan cry babies who hated widescreen, I just cannot have any respect for those who continue to say, "well, it's better than DVD, so everything is fine."

I've been civil up to now, but my blood is now boiling over at this point because I was so so SO looking forward to STAR TREK II III and IV, as well as Leone's classic thrid Dollars film. Now they are ruined.

Because of this i am going to simply stop postying at AVS. If i do I will regret it. Instead, i am going to write letters to every major studio, every film director of influence and do whatever it takes to get this BS to STOP.


And there is not just "some DNR on this set" of TREK films There is mounds of it. I and III have heaps of it and IV is so bad as to rank with PATTON and LONGEST DAY as among the most ruined BD releases so far. Only II had a new transfer. The rest used transfers from a decade ago and then scrubbed them to oblivion.

A great deal more respect would be given if the apologists stopped claiming everything was acceptable on even the most ruined releases. But they do not. They just keep saying it is fine and that nothing is wrong.
post #63 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

No, I will not dial it back. No thanks. I make no apologies here because it seems we are again at war (the studios vs people with a brain). I am as angry about this issue as I was the widescreen war. It would be one thing if the apologists actually would admit they were wrong when the proof was in the pudding on a release like PATTON or STAR TREK IV, but like the Laserdisc fanatics who refused to accept DVD's superiority or the pan & scan cry babies who hated widescreen, I just cannot have any respect for those who continue to say, "well, it's better than DVD, so everything is fine." How can I respect anyone who thinks such lunacy?

Nope. I've been civil, but my blood is now boiling over.

And there is not just "some DNR on this set." There is mounds of it. I and III have heaps of it and IV is so bad as to rank with PATTON and LOGEST DAY as among the most ruined BD releases so far. Only II had a new transfer. The rest used transfers from a decade ago and then scrubbed them to oblivion.

War? Blood boiling over? Oh my goodness...
post #64 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

How can I respect anyone who thinks such lunacy?

How can you consider it reasonable to continue to post here if you don't?

No one is demanding that you agree with them.
post #65 of 521
What I see are people refusing to accept a definitive truth and who are now going out of their way to argue and disagree with those of us who are pointing out these truths. It is now non-stop and as a result, numerous long time members have left this forum. Today is my last day posting here on this topic. The only reason I will post in this part of the forum again is if their is a technical glitch of some sort I want to ask about.

I'm not the only one doing this.

Quote:


Comparing a poor BD release to a criminal offense is way over the top.

Good grief. It is a term used to point out something that is blatant and abhorent and it is used all the time in numerous meanings in numerous topics in numerous discussions. In this case, these films are being defiled and altered and it is absolutely wrong. Calling it criminal is a way of showing one's absolute disgust with the situation.
post #66 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

What I see are people refusing to accept a definitive truth and who are now going out of their way to argue and disagree with those of us who are pointing out these truths. It is now non-stop and as a result, numerous long time members have left this forum. Today is my last day posting here on this topic. The only reason I will post in this part of the forum again is if their is a technical glitch of some sort I want to ask about.

I'm not the only one doing this.

I'm sorry to hear that Matt. You have your opinions. Others have theirs. Both deserve respect.
post #67 of 521
It's amazing that anyone would have an excuse for this abomination. Looking slightly better than a crummy dvd is a very weak argument.
post #68 of 521
Jcorwin... Opinions that advocate lunacy do not deserve respect. All I could do was laugh at people who refused to accept that widescreen was NOT cutting off the top and bottom of the picture. All I could do was shake my head at people who refused to switch to DVD, instead clinging on to their laserdiscs and refusing to buy any new movie for viewing at home.

This is no different. At this moment, studios are attempting to ruin, for essentially decades, how films look. They want to change these films and alter them, making them look INFERIOR and some of you think that is OK. How can I respect that?

I respect the people here. I respect you. But any opinions that are stated which say there is no problem, or that the problem is not an issue... How can i say that is OK?

This is why I am not posting after today. I just cannot deal with it. It makes me angry, so because I respect the PEOPLE here I am going to stand back and just shut up. You will not see me back here going after the apologists.

What more could you ask?



P.S. My typing is terrible today as I am on a small, unfamiliar laptop.
post #69 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

It's amazing that anyone would have an excuse for this abomination. Looking slightly better than a crummy dvd is a very weak argument.

I got this disc today from Netflix.

I will keep a box of tissues near me when my eyes surely start to bleed from this "abomination".

I have never seen the movie before. Hopefully this "defiled" version on the bluray won't actually ruin the film for me.
post #70 of 521
Having actually watched this disc (crazy, I know), I've gotta chime in with a few words.

Has it been degrained? Most likely. But in motion does it look as lifeless and leaden as, say, Longest Day? Not by a long ****ing shot. Detail varies scene by scene, shot by shot even, so it's harder to gauge how destructive - or not - the DNR has been. Shots of blue sky still tend to hold a very light amount of grain, and the opticals look grainy as hell, natch.

This movie was restored photochemically some 7 years ago, and I'm betting that a brand new transfer & digital clean-up would work wonders for it, as we've seen with the recent Italian BD of A Fistful Of Dollars.

Until that happens, I can live with this BD presentation as it's much better than the R2 Special Edition, not least because the edge halos are gone.
post #71 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post

I hope you are aware that with this attitude you can also justify Patton and The Longest Day ?

I haven't seen either of them, so I will not comment on them.
Quote:
I am of the opinion that it is almost always better to wait and do things right instead of releasing something that is just better than the DVD, it certainly is for an important movie like TGTBTU.

Striving for perfection is fine, but in the real world there are always technical and economic realities that can prevent a "perfect" release. BD sales volumes currently do not support spending hundreds of thousands of dollars for a complete new restoration of every single catalog release, so in many cases you will have to live with things like releases sourced from older masters. In other cases source material of the quality that you demand may not even exist.

Personally, for some movies that are really important to me (like the one discussed here), I will gladly buy every release that offers a significant improvement over the best previous release. If something better comes along later, I will buy that too. I'm sorry if that makes anyone's "blood boil", but I won't wait around for perfection that may never come. I'd rather enjoy this great movie in the best presentation currently available. I'd do that even if the best release was a crummy VHS tape.
Quote:
I was not referring to that particular scene and I would also like to point out that I am not the one who claims that the whole movie was treated the same. I would rather not want to guess why the material has been treated so differently as frankly there is enough speculation in this thread as it is

There seem to be an incredible number of "experts" in film restoration here.
post #72 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by bt12483 View Post

I got this disc today from Netflix.

I will keep a box of tissues near me when my eyes surely start to bleed from this "abomination".

I have never seen the movie before. Hopefully this "defiled" version on the bluray won't actually ruin the film for me.

The fact that you have never seen this movie before is sheer "lunacy"!
post #73 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigby Reardon View Post

Personally, for some movies that are really important to me (like the one discussed here), I will gladly buy every release that offers a significant improvement over the best previous release. If something better comes along later, I will buy that too. I'm sorry if that makes anyone's "blood boil", but I won't wait around for perfection that may never come. I'd rather enjoy this great movie in the best presentation currently available. I'd do that even if the best release was a crummy VHS tape.

I happen to take the same stance if the movie is at all watchable to me, but TGTBTU is a movie that I can only watch so often so rental will do fine. Good releases usually get bought even with lesser potential of repeated viewing, I hope it will further more classic releases. And on the matter of getting the best version there is I cannot tell you through how many versions of El Cid and Fall of the Roman Empire I have gone on several different formats - it must be around a dozen right now


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigby Reardon View Post

There seem to be an incredible number of "experts" in film restoration here.

The great thing about the web - everybody can be an expert in his own mind

While I think that is it fine to comment on how a release looks it is always difficult to say how this look was arrived at. For example the Blu-Ray of Zulu looks very mushy and devoid of low amplitude detail like grain and facial structures and the culprit apparently were several automated dust removal passes - NOT DNR.
post #74 of 521
Thread Starter 
post #75 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

It's amazing that anyone would have an excuse for this abomination. Looking slightly better than a crummy dvd is a very weak argument.

Well, I don't think it looks slightly better. I think it looks substantially better. There are numerous issues with the image on the SE DVD that are resolved on the Bd. And if you think I'm an anti-grain philistine, forget it. I'm one of the people originally raising hell over the image of the Untouchables. This was the release where Robert Harris first mentioned the 'scrubbed linoleum' look, which got pared down to the phrase 'waxy' which is now thrown around with reckless abandon.
But there is more that contributed to the waxy look of The Untouchables (and others) than just filtering out some of the grain. It was manipulating the gamma resulting in a modern looking compressed digital dynamic range with crushed blacks and hot whites and over saturated colors. In other words, the film look 'tarted up' and unlike a film of it's era. I don't see much grain to the image here...but I also do NOT see the videogame, digital signature to it that some of the militants here are professing to see. To me it just looks like a fresh, clean film print.
I was worried after reading some of these comments the last few weeks, and was on the fence about sending it back unopened. Very glad I didn't.
post #76 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

Jcorwin... Opinions that advocate lunacy do not deserve respect. All I could do was laugh at people who refused to accept that widescreen was NOT cutting off the top and bottom of the picture. All I could do was shake my head at people who refused to switch to DVD, instead clinging on to their laserdiscs and refusing to buy any new movie for viewing at home.

This is no different. At this moment, studios are attempting to ruin, for essentially decades, how films look. They want to change these films and alter them, making them look INFERIOR and some of you think that is OK. How can I respect that?

I respect the people here. I respect you. But any opinions that are stated which say there is no problem, or that the problem is not an issue... How can i say that is OK?

This is why I am not posting after today. I just cannot deal with it. It makes me angry, so because I respect the PEOPLE here I am going to stand back and just shut up. You will not see me back here going after the apologists.

Matt, while I sometimes think your militant stance has alienated folks, I have always valued your opinion, and hope you reconsider dropping out.

Right now it appears those who have no problem with DNR etc are much more vocal than those of us who do. I'm concerned that their loud voices are drowning out the other side, and making heavily processed transfers sound more appealling to prospective buyers who may be surprised when they view these at home.

Hopefully Xylon's excellent work will allow people to make up their minds with concrete examples of what's going on.
post #77 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

Jcorwin... Opinions that advocate lunacy do not deserve respect. All I could do was laugh at people who refused to accept that widescreen was NOT cutting off the top and bottom of the picture. All I could do was shake my head at people who refused to switch to DVD, instead clinging on to their laserdiscs and refusing to buy any new movie for viewing at home.

This is no different. At this moment, studios are attempting to ruin, for essentially decades, how films look. They want to change these films and alter them, making them look INFERIOR and some of you think that is OK. How can I respect that?

I respect the people here. I respect you. But any opinions that are stated which say there is no problem, or that the problem is not an issue... How can i say that is OK?

This is why I am not posting after today. I just cannot deal with it. It makes me angry, so because I respect the PEOPLE here I am going to stand back and just shut up. You will not see me back here going after the apologists.

What more could you ask?



P.S. My typing is terrible today as I am on a small, unfamiliar laptop.

I wouldn't stress over it. Pretty much everything that is said here gets neglected by the studios anyway, and the forum is essentially a cesspool of the same arguments on both sides being made over and over again. You are only damaging your health by getting angry over such matters.
post #78 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deviation View Post

These people aren't giving their opinions, they're spitting in the face of the truth because they have an agenda and they don't deserve any respect whatsoever.

Which people? Regardless, if you honestly believe that other members don't deserve respect simply because they disagree with you...you probably shouldn't come here.

- Could and should TGTBTU look better? Obviously.

- Could and should the Star Trek films look better? Obviously.

- Is another member's decision to purchase and enjoy them regardless of their flaws a reason to attack and belittle them? Obviously not.

That bottom line is that the rhetoric from both sides has gone too far and is driving people away from AVS.
post #79 of 521
please lower the level of rhetoric or you will be asked to leave the thread
post #80 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deviation View Post

These people aren't giving their opinions, they're spitting in the face of the truth because they have an agenda and they don't deserve any respect whatsoever.

I'm very sorry that you feel that way.

I feel that I don't have any agenda, other than wanting to see my favourite films in the best quality available.

If the new Blu-ray Disc was only a small step up over the SD DVD, then I'd say so, and sell the BD. As it is, despite the problems and issues with the picture, I feel it's a big enough step up to warrent the outlay, and that's what I've said.

Steve W
post #81 of 521
Guys,

Take it easy! I've been buying DVDs and BDs from the inception of both formats and I believe I'm as picky as they come but at the end of the day they are just movies; I know most here are enthusiasts (as am I) but really are all these attacks necessary?

Personally, I bought this yesterday (couldn't pass it up at $17.99 CDN) and I must say that for the most part it was very disapointing though it is an improvement over the DVD. I must say that I was expecting to be disapointed based on the screen caps but I expect it will be a few years before we see a better effort so I'm willing to buy it now and give this copy away when a better version is released.
post #82 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post

I'm very sorry that you feel that way.

I feel that I don't have any agenda, other than wanting to see my favourite films in the best quality available.

If the new Blu-ray Disc was only a small step up over the SD DVD, then I'd say so, and sell the BD. As it is, despite the problems and issues with the picture, I feel it's a big enough step up to warrent the outlay, and that's what I've said.

The funniest thing about this hub-bub (and to a smaller extent, that of the Trek films) is that most people who encourage the retention of grain here and at HTF are now starting to get the actual disc in their players and are saying: "You know, there's been grain reduction, but it's not as bad as the hype made it out to be."

These aren't the so-called "Joe 6-Packs" or "DNR supporters" (neither of which are anywhere as numerous on these boards as described), these are people who have argued against the removal of grain in other releases, but they're finding that they can live, albeit slightly disappointed, with the release.
post #83 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBlacklow View Post

The funniest thing about this hub-bub (and to a smaller extent, that of the Trek films) is that most people who encourage the retention of grain here and at HTF are now starting to get the actual disc in their players and are saying: "You know, there's been grain reduction, but it's not as bad as the hype made it out to be."

And it's refreshing to see some common sense from the same people, instead of the mouth-foaming, vein pulsing rants from certain members.
post #84 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcorwin View Post


That bottom line is that the rhetoric from both sides has gone too far and is driving people away from AVS.

I'm close to doing that myself.

I feel like it's just one big argument these days. Now you know i'm in favor of better transfers so will always argue against these type of releases but i really do not like the relentless back and forth nature of arguing that i find myself involved in when i come here.

I personally feel May has seen a lot of sub standard Blu releases and i understand fully when people argue against such releases. Disappointment brings anger sometimes and that can be reflected in posts.

I'll continue my film grain allowed thread but i feel less inclined lately to say too much in these threads anymore especially since it just leads to someone trying to tell me i'm wrong and the film looks just fine. Call me a purist or whatever you want but i bought into this hobby to get the ultimate editions of films and it seems we are just getting the usual double and triple dip thing by studio's and it's actually putting me off the format slightly.

I don't want to argue the film lovers thing which says i should buy it anyways because it's the best version available. Been down that argument route and disagree with it so best to not open it up again.

I'm disappointed with a number of recent releases and won't buy them and i'm disappointed at the influx of members who seem happy with things because something is better than the DVD. Standards are slipping here at AVS and probably also slipping in society on a great number of things not just things discussed here but that doesn't mean mine have to slip.

Ok post over. Enjoy your thread folks as i will leave you all to it.
post #85 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

I feel like it's just one big argument these days.

NO, IT'S NOT!!!




Sorry... had to.
post #86 of 521
Quote:
Originally Posted by spectator View Post

NO, IT'S NOT!!!




Sorry... had to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv...eature=related
post #87 of 521
I am debating whether to buy this one. It is one of those borderline movies, so whether I buy is not a big deal. I had seen this on HDNet about 2 years ago, and it looked awful. Then they broadcasted another version about 6 months ago, and it looked significantly better. Someone had also mentioned that they saw a restored print in an arthouse and it looked fantastic. I am wondering where this Blu-Ray sits relative to these 3 versions?
post #88 of 521
I'm a big believer in the Robert Browning quote that, "A man's reach should exceed his grasp".

Or, for the more contemporary crowd, the U. S. Air Force slogan "Aim High".

I believe in setting lofty goals and high standards. These are good things. When we don't achieve those highest of goals, I appreciate when people point out what needs to be improved.

By the same token, every failure to reach our goals or meet our standards does not constitute abject failure. There is not a line of perfection below which a transfer becomes "crap" or "almost unwatchable". If perfection or near perfection becomes our bar for every transfer, we'd get one Blu-ray release every two months. There are multiple factors, some objective but many subjective, involved in the process of bringing discs to market.

Of course I'd like the best possible transfer under every circumstance. But I also have an appetite for movies and I'm not young enough to wait it out for every transfer to be done to my standard of perfection. Sometimes an "OK" transfer has to do. Once in awhile, "Better than the DVD" is the best we are likely to get. And when things fall short, we SHOULD point it out here. It's ok to call for improvement. I just think we can go a bit overboard in criticism. There is a continously changing shade of grey involved in quality judgements and not just a border between white and black.
post #89 of 521
Well, in my case, I had planned on purchasing the SE DVD around the same time they announced the BD.
I purchased the special editions of AFFOD and FAFDM on DVD. Since I did not purchase the DVD of TGTBATU I believe the BD should be good enough.
Had I purchased the DVD version then I would have simply held off on buying the BD if it did not offer a major improvement.
To me, the purpose of collecting a film for home viewing is to have the best edition available. Yes, if it is better than the DVD I will consider the upgrade or purchase the BD over the DVD.
The reason why studios double and triple dip is because of people who think they NEED to have everything. Case in point, the soon to be released T2 collection. How many versions of one film do you need?
Some of these director's cuts and special editions only have a few extra minutes of footage. Granted, some of this footage might change the experience of the film completely, but is it necessary to own every version possible?
I've only seen the US version of Kill Bill, so the WBA version is unknown to me. I guess ignorance is bliss.
Some people forget that the movie industry is a BUSINESS and they are out to make money.
Why go out of their way to invest millions when the sales will not warrant the investment? They won't sell millions of copies of TGTBATU.
These people cater to the masses. The majority cares about buying a DVD or BD, watching it at home and be done with it. It's an alternative to going out to the movies and spend $40-50 bucks.
They know that there are people out there who will buy any version they sell and that is business.
Not sure if I went off topic there, but I hardly post on these threads.
post #90 of 521
These Star Trek releases have brought everything to a whole new level of rancor here on AVS. It makes the crazy and paranoid part of my brain think that the studios are getting exactly what they want. They want to force through DNR because it does well in focus groups and they want the people who complain about it to be drowned out or pushed away. The people who are fighting the good fight, so to speak (pointing out the DNR without attacking people over it), are just throwing up their hands and going away because they don't want to deal with the arguments and attacks.

I'm not saying that TGTBTU is a mess like some of the other films out there (Star Trek IV, for example) - heck, Pan's Labyrinth is DNRed and I still think it's a pretty good looking disc. Maybe my post doesn't belong in this thread specifically but I don't know where else it could go and I just wanted to join in on the existing discussion.

If anyone who's posted in this thread already felt like my comments were a personal attack against them (most specifically Pecker, since he responded to my comments as if they were addressed to him), I want to apologize for that. It wasn't directed against anyone's opinions of TGTBTU in this thread but simply a response to the quoted text in that post.
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