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Frame Interpolation - a must have for a digital pj!

post #1 of 60
Thread Starter 
About a year ago I casually walked by a Samsung LCD T.V. while it was displaying an animated feature. I stopped dead in my tracks - I was shocked! O.K. I thought, the industry just snuck 3D technology past me and apparently everyone on the AVS Forum. As it turned out what I was seeing was the aggressive use of Frame Interpolation. I've seen several 3D presentations at the IMAX and always found the results to be somewhat gimmicky - things were being thrown off the screen at the audience for effect. Frame Interpolation on the other hand seems to add enormous depth to the image. In other words, scenes seem to stretch back behind the screen rather than being suspended out in front of it, which is much more natural IMO. The effect seems to work best for animation when applied aggressively. When applied less aggressively it works well for live action movies giving the action a smooth liquid flow without the usual judder and blurriness. When applied aggressively to live action film it can be distracting with that soap opera look; however, the liquid smooth flow of movement and huge apparent resolution (detail to the extreme) is intriguing.

I really enjoy animated films like: Kung Foo Panda, Horton Hears a Who; Cars; Bolt and so on, so when considering a digital projector I looked around for something with FI and I'm glad I did! For me a least, frame interpolation is the biggest technological breakthrough for display devices in the last several years. Nothing has garnered more positive comments from guests to my home theatre than animation displayed with FI! When I look round my HT at my guests while they watch an animated feature (with FI on) I am somewhat amused at just how transfixed they are. I also have a Sony G90 gamma corrected CRT projector that does full fade to black while retaining full shadow detail and its very impressive. Nonetheless, its the digital projector with FI that gets all the superlative comments about the image. For me that's pretty telling!
post #2 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Frame Interpolation on the other hand seems to add enormous depth to the image. In other words, scenes seem to stretch back behind the screen rather than being suspended out in front of it, which is much more natural IMO.

It also destroys the look of film, making it look like a bad documentary or soap opera.

Quote:


The effect seems to work best for animation when applied aggressively. When applied less aggressively it works well for live action movies giving the action a smooth liquid flow without the usual judder and blurriness.

1080p24 into a display that can display it right (meaning at 24n Hz) results in "smooth liquid flow" without the artifacts of FI, or the soap opera look.

Quote:


I really enjoy animated films like: Kung Foo Panda, Horton Hears a Who; Cars; Bolt and so on, so when considering a digital projector I looked around for something with FI and I'm glad I did! For me a least, frame interpolation is the biggest technological breakthrough for display devices in the last several years.

I'll pass.
post #3 of 60
I second stanger89's comments. I've yet to see any implementation of frame interpolation that didn't, for me, negatively impact the viewing experience.

In fact I don't even care for it on computer animation. It does indeed give the animation a super-sharp, vivid look to be sure. But it screws around with the carefully crafted effects in the animation, insofar as motion blur is deliberately added to computer animation to make motion appear as it is captured in film. Once you take away the blur and sharpen up all the edges I find that it tends to detach the animated figures from the background, making them look more like sharp cut-out figures. I can "see" the process of the animated figures mapped on to the various backgrounds so the image looks more mechanical or contrived. Whereas without frame interpolation, as the animation was intended, there is a more convincing cohesiveness where all the figures and backgrounds seem to meld better.

People will always be amazed by super sharp imagery, so I'm not surprised at all that your guests comment positively on frame interpolation. But once you get beyond the "Wow it's super sharp" thing, a lot of us find the negatives can outweigh the positives.

At least at this point in the technology.
post #4 of 60
I recently upgraded my PJ from an AE3000 with FI to a JVC HD350 without. One of the things I thought I might miss was the effect of 'mode 1' FI (never got on with the more aggressive mode 2), but to my surprise I don't miss it. While it did sharpen up movement, I wasn't quite convinced by it, but I left it 'on' as with it 'off' the image on the AE3000 was much softer during motion. The funny thing is that the HD350 seems sharper in motion than the AE3000 with FI 'OFF', so I kind of feel that I'm seeing a better 'native' motion. Given that there are some that have issues with the HD350/750 during motion I think that maybe the AE3000 needs the effect of FI just to 'keep up' with the rest, or maybe the 'off' mode is somehow 'nobbled' to make the FI seem better.

All IMHO and YMMV of course.
post #5 of 60
The Dark Frame Insertion on my Sony VW200 in its lightest Mode (3) does seem to do an excellent job whether I am watching movies or sports. I only use MotionFlow with sports. Even without DFI I still notice the motion as being much better with panning then I did with the FPJ1/RS2 and RS20. Much better...
post #6 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I second stanger89's comments. I've yet to see any implementation of frame interpolation that didn't, for me, negatively impact the viewing experience.

In fact I don't even care for it on computer animation. It does indeed give the animation a super-sharp, vivid look to be sure. But it screws around with the carefully crafted effects in the animation, insofar as motion blur is deliberately added to computer animation to make motion appear as it is captured in film. Once you take away the blur and sharpen up all the edges I find that it tends to detach the animated figures from the background, making them look more like sharp cut-out figures. I can "see" the process of the animated figures mapped on to the various backgrounds so the image looks more mechanical or contrived. Whereas without frame interpolation, as the animation was intended, there is a more convincing cohesiveness where all the figures and backgrounds seem to meld better.

People will always be amazed by super sharp imagery, so I'm not surprised at all that your guests comment positively on frame interpolation. But once you get beyond the "Wow it's super sharp" thing, a lot of us find the negatives can outweigh the positives.

At least at this point in the technology.

I also agree with these comments! I have yet to see any implementation that I could live with.
post #7 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

It also destroys the look of film, making it look like a bad documentary or soap opera.

It reminds me of the 1970s Land of the Lost, which was shot on video tape.
post #8 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Even without DFI I still notice the motion as being much better with panning then I did with the FPJ1/RS2 and RS20. Much better...


*Plugs ears*

I don't wanna hear it.

The RS20 is virtually perfect for me in all respects, although I do sometimes notice softness with motion. I was wondering how it compared with my older Panasonic AE900 projector, which I never had any problem with in terms of motion. (Not that the AE900 is particularly good with motion, just that since I've watched it for many months without being bothered by motion issues, if the RS20 is at least as good then I should be ok).

So I did a mini-shoot out and it seemed everything that blurred on the RS20 blurred on the Panasonic too, only perhaps a little worse on the Panasonic. But strangely, when I watch them separately it seems I can be more aware of some blurring on the JVC. I don't know if it's the much brighter picture of the JVC or that I get into a more critical mode or whatever. But IF it is indeed no worse than the Panny I should be ok.

The last thing I want is to have blurring issues end up as some deal-breaker....
post #9 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

*Plugs ears*

I don't wanna hear it.

The RS20 is virtually perfect for me in all respects, although I do sometimes notice softness with motion. I was wondering how it compared with my older Panasonic AE900 projector, which I never had any problem with in terms of motion. (Not that the AE900 is particularly good with motion, just that since I've watched it for many months without being bothered by motion issues, if the RS20 is at least as good then I should be ok).

So I did a mini-shoot out and it seemed everything that blurred on the RS20 blurred on the Panasonic too, only perhaps a little worse on the Panasonic. But strangely, when I watch them separately it seems I can be more aware of some blurring on the JVC. I don't know if it's the much brighter picture of the JVC or that I get into a more critical mode or whatever. But IF it is indeed no worse than the Panny I should be ok.

The last thing I want is to have blurring issues end up as some deal-breaker....

Don't read this then. Seriously, it is not that the RS20 was so bad for me. I was just used to the VW200 and how excellent it handles motion. If I came from another PJ I would have probably not noticed it as much. No worries, the RS20 is still one of the best offerings at the moment.
post #10 of 60
My Optoma HD8200 has FI (off, low, med, high) and after experimentation I could never watch a "film" movie with it on. I used Quantum of Solace as the test and it is just goofy with it on. BUT, sports is great on med/high and animated is good on low/med.
post #11 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I second stanger89's comments. I've yet to see any implementation of frame interpolation that didn't, for me, negatively impact the viewing experience.

In fact I don't even care for it on computer animation. It does indeed give the animation a super-sharp, vivid look to be sure. But it screws around with the carefully crafted effects in the animation, insofar as motion blur is deliberately added to computer animation to make motion appear as it is captured in film. Once you take away the blur and sharpen up all the edges I find that it tends to detach the animated figures from the background, making them look more like sharp cut-out figures. I can "see" the process of the animated figures mapped on to the various backgrounds so the image looks more mechanical or contrived. Whereas without frame interpolation, as the animation was intended, there is a more convincing cohesiveness where all the figures and backgrounds seem to meld better.

People will always be amazed by super sharp imagery, so I'm not surprised at all that your guests comment positively on frame interpolation. But once you get beyond the "Wow it's super sharp" thing, a lot of us find the negatives can outweigh the positives.

At least at this point in the technology.

When I go back to animation with no FI, on either my Epson 7500 or G90, it looks flat and lifeless (relatively speaking) and no longer holds any appeal for me. I also find that FI allows me to appreciate the artistry involved in the creation of the image. For me the "film look" tends to hide or obscure the intricate detail (in other words the talent) that went into the creation of the image.
post #12 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

When I go back to animation with no FI, on either my Epson 7500 or G90, it looks flat and lifeless (relatively speaking) and no longer holds any appeal for me. I also find that FI allows me to appreciate the artistry involved in the creation of the image. For me the "film look" tends to hide or obscure the intricate detail (in other words the talent) that went into the creation of the image.

I find that quite often that "hide[n] or obscure ...intricate detail" is meant to be that way, done on purpose so that it's harder to tell it's "fake"/artificially generated.

Watch Saving Private Ryan with FI on and let us know how it looks. FI makes the bullet splashes in the water look hastily slapped on by a freshman CGI artist rather than convincingly real like they were meant to look.
post #13 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

I find that quite often that "hide[n] or obscure ...intricate detail" is meant to be that way, done on purpose so that it's harder to tell it's "fake"/artificially generated.

Watch Saving Private Ryan with FI on and let us know how it looks. FI makes the bullet splashes in the water look hastily slapped on by a freshman CGI artist rather than convincingly real like they were meant to look.

I don't watch movies (live action) with FI on normal or high, only on low where the "film like look" is retained. FI on low is very subtle. I'm in agreement with you with respect to "film" and aggressive FI; however, I personally really like FI on normal or high for live concerts and animation - in fact, so much so, that I wouldn't purchase a projector without it!
post #14 of 60
I am new to the audio visual aspect and have never seen FI in action. In the near future i am going to upgrade to the 1080p projector from the Optoma DV-10 i have now so i am sure there will be a difference as i leap into HD.

My wife loves The Polar Express and once we get everything set up, it is going to be the first blue ray to buy and watch.

I wonder how FI will be when watching The Polar Express? Would it be "life like" i know we are going to be in awe just upgrading from 480 to 1080P, umm maybe the movie will just be as good without FI.

I wish there was a display i can see it in action.
post #15 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kay9 View Post

I am new to the audio visual aspect and have never seen FI in action. In the near future i am going to upgrade to the 1080p projector from the Optoma DV-10 i have now so i am sure there will be a difference as i leap into HD.

My wife loves The Polar Express and once we get everything set up, it is going to be the first blue ray to buy and watch.

I wonder how FI will be when watching The Polar Express? Would it be "life like" i know we are going to be in awe just upgrading from 480 to 1080P, umm maybe the movie will just be as good without FI.

I wish there was a display i can see it in action.

Polar express (HD DVD) was the first movie I showed anyone with frame interpolation turned on and everyone was mesmerized. It looks good without FI, but with FI its kind of scary (in a good way).
post #16 of 60
I watched Bolt and Cars last night with FI on and my Fiance could not stop commenting on how great it makes the image look. I turned it off and on to see if she could notice a difference and she liked it on (and so did I)...But other then animated movies and sports I tend to leave it off...
post #17 of 60
FI high + Living Room or Dynamic mode + concert/sports/animation/gaming/planet earth, etc. = an experience the JVC cannot touch.

I'm referring to the Epson 6500. When combining 2000 lumens and FI, it produces something that beats any flat panel I've ever seen. (I own both a panasonic plasma, Samsung LCD, and Panasonic LCD).

The only negative to FI is that it does not work well with movies (soap opera effect), but the NEW firmware with the low FI setting actually removes most judder and does not give the soap opera effect.

I will never buy a Projector without 120hz again. Unless it's 240hz Those who bash FI, obviously have not seen it used properly. I really hope this years JVC adds this feature. (now that would be a nice projector)
post #18 of 60
It's definitely a love/hate relationship with FI. I personally don't like it, though I have seen instances on certain sources where it did "add" something to the look.

To each his own.
post #19 of 60
I completely understand. Almost every time I see it, I'm amazed by what it does. It truly is amazing technology. That said, I find that once I get over that initial "wow", I tend to become accutely aware that something has been "lost". It's like I'm no longer watching the movie, but I'm watching the filming of the movie, like I'm on the set watching the creation take place, rather than being transported into the movie.

FI seems to eliminate/reduce the suspension of disbelief that makes movies so enjoyable.
post #20 of 60
I upgraded from the 6500UB to the HD350 and like a few others I don't miss FI at all. Even though FI on 6500UB was not perfect (showing up artifacts once in a while), even when it was working 90% of the time I never really liked the effect (I never used it after trying it for the first few days with different materials). On the other hand, I find the 3D effect from the HD350 to be much more amazing and satisfying, which I guess is due to the smooth, noise free picture it throws. Yes it does show judder in fast moving/panning scenes, but all the other times I like its 3D effect more than what FI on 6500 provided.
post #21 of 60
I watched Kung Fu Panda a couple days ago on both a Sony LCD and the Pioneer Kuro plasma.

The Sony was using Frame Interpolation. It looked astonishingly sharp and detailed, of course. If someone wanted to be impressed by sheer image clarity and detail, I'd show them the movie with FI on. But it also displayed exactly the issues I complained of earlier: It had that "cut out" effect, where the characters didn't look as attached to the background - just placed "into" the scenery. And it looked more like video. Just, kind of cheaper.

I preferred the presentation on the Kuro (no FI) and found the image more natural, film like and believable overall.

I haven't seen every impementation of FI and perhaps on some "low" setting it's something I could use here or there. But I've yet to see it implemented on any display where it didn't make itself known in the manner above.
post #22 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewPannyGuy View Post

I upgraded from the 6500UB to the HD350 and like a few others I don't miss FI at all. Even though FI on 6500UB was not perfect (showing up artifacts once in a while), even when it was working 90% of the time I never really liked the effect (I never used it after trying it for the first few days with different materials). On the other hand, I find the 3D effect from the HD350 to be much more amazing and satisfying, which I guess is due to the smooth, noise free picture it throws. Yes it does show judder in fast moving/panning scenes, but all the other times I like its 3D effect more than what FI on 6500 provided.

I also have have a gamma corrected G90 (and a gamma corrected Marquee 8500 LC in a second HT) which has a black level that no consumer digital projector can touch and has amazing depth. The depth from my 7500 with animation and FI on is in a different league. I've now watched lots of different material with FI on and off. For me its a must have for animation and live concerts. I usually watch live action movies with the G90 or the 8500; however, the 7500 looks really good with FI on low for live action movies. If the 7500 had the G90's black level then I would use it for everything.

I think FI is here to stay and that it will evolve and ultimately become widely accepted, at least for some applications. Some people like certain foods while others don't! I doubt that there's a right or wrong - just personal preference. For some applications I find myself becoming an advocate for FI.
post #23 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I also have have a gamma corrected G90 (and a gamma corrected Marquee 8500 LC in a second HT) which has a black level that no consumer digital projector can touch and has amazing depth. The depth from my 7500 with animation and FI on is in a different league. I've now watched lots of different material with FI on and off. For me its a must have for animation and live concerts. I usually watch live action movies with the G90 or the 8500; however, the 7500 looks really good with FI on low for live action movies. If the 7500 had the G90's black level then I would use it for everything.

I think FI is here to stay and that it will evolve and ultimately become widely accepted, at least for some applications. Some people like certain foods while others don't! I doubt that there's a right or wrong - just personal preference. For some applications I find myself becoming an advocate for FI.

I completely agree with you that its personal preference. I also agree that in a few years FI would be standard on most displays. However my point was regarding the subject of this thread, i.e. FI is not a must have at this time at least for quite a few people.
post #24 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

I completely understand. Almost every time I see it, I'm amazed by what it does. It truly is amazing technology. That said, I find that once I get over that initial "wow", I tend to become accutely aware that something has been "lost". It's like I'm no longer watching the movie, but I'm watching the filming of the movie, like I'm on the set watching the creation take place, rather than being transported into the movie.

FI seems to eliminate/reduce the suspension of disbelief that makes movies so enjoyable.

Well said.
post #25 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

I completely understand. Almost every time I see it, I'm amazed by what it does. It truly is amazing technology. That said, I find that once I get over that initial "wow", I tend to become accutely aware that something has been "lost". It's like I'm no longer watching the movie, but I'm watching the filming of the movie, like I'm on the set watching the creation take place, rather than being transported into the movie.

FI seems to eliminate/reduce the suspension of disbelief that makes movies so enjoyable.

There seems to be a misunderstanding here as to what FI in its various incarnations actually does! FI isn't simply an "off" or "on" feature. The recent upgrade to the Epson's FI is a clear indication of this and I think the FI on the Panasonic 3000 is similar. FI on "low" DOES NOT produce a soap opera or hand held video camera look, but rather a highly detailed very smooth film look. FI on "normal" or "high" with live action film does strip away the film look leaving a very "soap opera" look which I find distracting; however, both animation and live concerts, IMO, benefit from this look due to the added realism and amazing 3D quality added, especially for animation. I don't particularly like the soap opera look so I don't watch movies with FI on "normal" or "high"; however, "low" looks very much like 1080p/24, but smoother and with more apparent resolution. To dismiss FI, carte blanche, because one application of it produces a "video" look is a mistake IMO.
post #26 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

FI on "low" DOES NOT produce a soap opera or hand held video camera look, but rather a highly detailed very smooth film look.

What does "low" actually do? Does it just convert 2-3 pulldown to 5-5 pulldown? If that's the case, 5-5 will appear smoother than 2-3, but there is no interpolation at all.
post #27 of 60
Thread Starter 
I think "low" adds fewer interpolated frames smoothing out the image without other noticeable side effects.
post #28 of 60
Maybe "less noticable" but there's simply no way to make 24fps display smoothly in 60Hz refresh without interpolating every frame.
post #29 of 60
I'm searching for my first projector and for now, FI is a must for me. I honestly don't know if I'll use it a lot, but I know I'll end up using when gaming and watching hdtv/sports. I'll experiment with film material to see if I'll like it. I "think" I'll enjoy it on low, cause I hate judder/motion blur during panning. It really gets to me ... But I've seen the soap opera effect that others talk when walking around LCD shelves.

Having said that, I have a question for those that don't like it. You don't like it because of the artifacts it introduces or it's just the film feel that's gone? Let's say movies start being recorded at these speeds (thus no artifacts), then the argument that info is being generated and that it's not the director's intent goes away. Would you still feel that the same way?

I have very little hands on with FI (still own an older rear projection set), so just trying to understand the real reason people don't like FI.
post #30 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waters_10 View Post

I'm searching for my first projector and for now, FI is a must for me. I honestly don't know if I'll use it a lot, but I know I'll end up using when gaming and watching hdtv/sports. I'll experiment with film material to see if I'll like it. I "think" I'll enjoy it on low, cause I hate judder/motion blur during panning. It really gets to me ... But I've seen the soap opera effect that others talk when walking around LCD shelves.

I see this "gaming" comment quite often, doesn't FI make lag much worse?

Quote:


Having said that, I have a question for those that don't like it. You don't like it because of the artifacts it introduces or it's just the film feel that's gone?

Both, but I explained it the best way I can above. Film's frame rate, for whatever reason it was chosen, has the effect of feeling "surreal". My thought is that it's just slow enough so that your brain knows it's not "real", and this allows you to more easily "get lost" in the movie. FI'd film just doesn't feel the same, it feels like you're on the set watching the creation of the movie, as opposed to just letting go and really getting into it. Or to put it another way, FI feels like a behind the scenes documentary rather than the real movie.

But then there's the artifacts, I tried to watch Saving Private Ryan with FI enable once. The opening (cemetary) scene in the movie is spectacular (speaking purely technically/aesthetically). But the moment the movie "flashes back" to Normandy, everything regarding FI changes. FI utterly destroyed that movie. Without FI the bullets hitting the water look like real bullets/splashes, but with FI they look like B/C movie special effects. The surreal-ness is completely gone. Effects that are convincing normally are made cheap looking by FI's sharpening (motion blur is a valuable tool in making effects blend in).

Quote:


Let's say movies start being recorded at these speeds (thus no artifacts), then the argument that info is being generated and that it's not the director's intent goes away. Would you still feel that the same way?

Without actually seeing a movie shot that fast I can't say for sure. I've seen a few TV shows (sci fi/dramas) that occasionally/oddly switch from film to video (or look like it) in the middle of an episode and the video parts don't look "right"

My guess is that 30/60fps movies wouldn't have the same magic 24fps movies do. I think it would become more of a "ride" than what it is now.

Makes me wonder if that's a big reason we're still shooting almost every movie in 24fps today.
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