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Actiontec MI424WR - a cheap MoCA bridge for all! - Page 40

post #1171 of 1198
Phil - I'm back for some more help please...I've got the diplexers and am still not able to get whole solution working.

After replacing the splitters with the diplexers and other various solutions I've read about, I can get the 2 MI424WRs in place and networked together fine or I can get the MI424WR and my Tivo Mini successfully networked but not both. As soon as I add the third device into the MoCA mix, the other networked unit (which was previously working) stops receiving the MoCA signal.

Any other ideas on how to proceed/troubleshoot?

I really appreciate your help. My wife is done with my hours worth of futile attempts :-).

Thanks,
Mark
post #1172 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlaw8 View Post

Phil - I'm back for some more help please...I've got the diplexers and am still not able to get whole solution working.

After replacing the splitters with the diplexers and other various solutions I've read about, I can get the 2 MI424WRs in place and networked together fine or I can get the MI424WR and my Tivo Mini successfully networked but not both. As soon as I add the third device into the MoCA mix, the other networked unit (which was previously working) stops receiving the MoCA signal.

Any other ideas on how to proceed/troubleshoot?

I really appreciate your help. My wife is done with my hours worth of futile attempts :-).

Thanks,
Mark

While the MoCA devices should be on the hi-band ("SAT") jacks of the diplexers, the Tivo Mini, which is recording and playing television signals, should be connected to the low-band ("TV") jack of one of the diplexers. If you set it up that way, it should be isolated from the MoCA boxes by the diplexer - which is a band-pass filter.
post #1173 of 1198
The Tivo Mini is taking coax straight from the wall as it is the only device in that location requiring cable. In my current setup, I only am using one diplexer (at the location of the Tivo Romaio/MI424WR). The MI424WR is taking cable from a split near the main entry point. Any other thoughts? Thanks
post #1174 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlaw8 View Post

The Tivo Mini is taking coax straight from the wall as it is the only device in that location requiring cable. In my current setup, I only am using one diplexer (at the location of the Tivo Romaio/MI424WR). The MI424WR is taking cable from a split near the main entry point. Any other thoughts? Thanks

If adding the Tivo Mini to the mix is knocking out the MoCA link, it may be injecting spurious high-band noise into the network.

Try putting it behind a diplexer, on the low-band jack, to use the diplexer as a filter to shield the network from the Mini's high-band output.

Or you could go straight to a device specifically designed to block high-band signals: Use a MoCA "Point of Entry" filter like you asked about, hooked up on the line to the Mini with the Mini on the "house" side and the rest of the network on the "Street."
post #1175 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post

While the MoCA devices should be on the hi-band ("SAT") jacks of the diplexers, the Tivo Mini, which is recording and playing television signals, should be connected to the low-band ("TV") jack of one of the diplexers. If you set it up that way, it should be isolated from the MoCA boxes by the diplexer - which is a band-pass filter.

The Mini uses MoCA to connect back to the Roamio for content though. In this case the Mini should be connected to the hi-band (SAT) side of the diplexer, correct?
post #1176 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by webcrawlr View Post

The Mini uses MoCA to connect back to the Roamio for content though. In this case the Mini should be connected to the hi-band (SAT) side of the diplexer, correct?

If the Roamio is sending content to the Mini, it's probably doing so in the low band, since the only equipment I know of other than MoCA links that uses the high band is Satellite television downlinks.

Even cable internet from cable companies is sent in the low band, which is why your cable modem gets connected to the low-band side of a diplexer with the MoCA box on the high-band side, with an ethernet cable connecting the two to feed the decoded internet signal from your router into the MoCA box.

That's why my recommendation that if the Mini is jamming the MoCA connection, it should be on the low-band side of a diplexer or behind a Point of Entry MoCA filter to protect the network from it. Any signal the Mini is putting out up there is just noise that the manufacturer didn't bother filtering because it would cost money, and folks who are not using satellite tv or MoCA would notice its presence.
Edited by Philnick - 1/3/14 at 11:58am
post #1177 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post

If the Roamio is sending content to the Mini, it's probably doing so in the low band, since the only equipment I know of other than MoCA links that uses the high band is Satellite television downlinks.

Even cable internet from cable companies is sent in the low band, which is why your cable modem gets connected to the low-band side of a diplexer with the MoCA box on the high-band side, with an ethernet cable connecting the two to feed the decoded internet signal from your router into the MoCA box.

That's why my recommendation that if the Mini is jamming the MoCA connection, it should be on the low-band side to protect the network from it. Any signal the Mini is putting out up there is just noise that the manufacturer didn't bother filtering because it would cost money, and folks who are not using satellite tv or MoCA would notice its presence.
The Roamio connects to the Mini one of two ways, Ethernet or MoCA. If you put the Mini on the low-band side of the diplexer it won't be able to connect to the MoCA network and in turn won't get content. People have reported problems using splitters rated less than 1500Mhz when trying to connect a Mini to MoCA, which would seem to support what I'm saying.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9833075#post9833075
post #1178 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by webcrawlr View Post

The Roamio connects to the Mini one of two ways, Ethernet or MoCA. If you put the Mini on the low-band side of the diplexer it won't be able to connect to the MoCA network and in turn won't get content. People have reported problems using splitters rated less than 1500Mhz when trying to connect a Mini to MoCA, which would seem to support what I'm saying.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=9833075#post9833075

In that case, you're trying to run two separate MoCA links - so try to figure out how to control the frequencies they use to put them far enough apart to not interfere with each other. I've never had to do this, so I'm not up on where in the Actiontec's menus you would go to control it's MoCA frequency.

You'll have to go cruising around in the advanced settings of all three devices (the Actiontec, the Mini, and the Roamio) to find the frequency settings.
post #1179 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post

In that case, you're trying to run two separate MoCA links - so try to figure out how to control the frequencies they use to put them far enough apart to not interfere with each other. I've never had to do this, so I'm not up on where in the Actiontec's menus you would go to control it's MoCA frequency.

You'll have to go cruising around in the advanced settings of all three devices (the Actiontec, the Mini, and the Roamio) to find the frequency settings.
Not at all. When you use the coax port on the Mini it's nothing more than a MoCA endpoint connecting to your existing MoCA network. If you already have MoCA at that outlet location and it's been bridged over to a switch you can hook your Mini to it leaving the Mini coax port empty.
post #1180 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by webcrawlr View Post

Not at all. When you use the coax port on the Mini it's nothing more than a MoCA endpoint connecting to your existing MoCA network. If you already have MoCA at that outlet location and it's been bridged over to a switch you can hook your Mini to it leaving the Mini coax port empty.

How is the Roamio sending the content? Via an Ethernet cable to an Actiontec or via coax MoCA connection?

If the Roamio / Mini connection is coax using the existing MoCA network, not a second one, then another potential point of conflict is in IP addresses - both the ones they're using and if one of them has an active internal DHCP host.

If one of them is trying to give out addresses as a DHCP host, shut that function off - your master router (the one connected to - or internal to - your cable modem) should be the only DHCP host on the network..

If one or both of them has a hard IP address, it may be the same as one of the Actiontecs. Set them up either to get their addresses from your master router as DHCP clients, or, if they need fixed addresses to find each other, consult the DHCP address range in your master router and give these devices addresses outside that range, probably by raising the lower end of the range to create room in which to park them.
post #1181 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post

How is the Roamio sending the content? Via an Ethernet cable to an Actiontec or via coax MoCA connection?

If the Roamio / Mini connection is coax using the existing MoCA network, not a second one, then another potential point of conflict is in IP addresses - both the ones they're using and if one of them has an active internal DHCP host.

If one of them is trying to give out addresses as a DHCP host, shut that function off - your master router (the one connected to - or internal to - your cable modem) should be the only DHCP host on the network..

If one or both of them has a hard IP address, it may be the same as one of the Actiontecs. Set them up either to get their addresses from your master router as DHCP clients, or, if they need fixed addresses to find each other, consult the DHCP address range in your master router and give these devices addresses outside that range, probably by raising the lower end of the range to create room in which to park them.
You're over thinking this. The Mini is just a "dumb" endpoint that requires a network connection over Ethernet or MoCA to the TiVo to get its content. How you choose to hook it up, Ethernet or coax, depends on what you have available. It can be an existing Ethernet network, existing MoCA or by creating a MoCA network using a Roamio Plus/Pro or other 3rd party hardware.
post #1182 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by webcrawlr View Post

You're over thinking this. The Mini is just a "dumb" endpoint that requires a network connection over Ethernet or MoCA to the TiVo to get its content. How you choose to hook it up, Ethernet or coax, depends on what you have available. It can be an existing Ethernet network, existing MoCA or by creating a MoCA network using a Roamio Plus/Pro or other 3rd party hardware.

I'm just responding to the complaint that directly connecting a Mini to the coax in a properly working MoCA knocks out the network.

If you have any other suggestions to solve the problem, please post them.
post #1183 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post

I'm just responding to the complaint that directly connecting a Mini to the coax in a properly working MoCA knocks out the network.

If you have any other suggestions to solve the problem, please post them.
And in my original post I was just letting you know the Mini requires the MoCA signals in order to function so putting it on the low side of a diplexer wouldn't work.

I'd be happy to help but I'd like to see a drawn diagram from mlaw8. The description of his setup I've seen in posts are very incomplete.
post #1184 of 1198
Thanks guys...I'm waiting for a few diplexers, will test them, and if I still need help I'll draw out a diagram. Mark
post #1185 of 1198
Guys - Still having problems...the first drawing is how I think it should be set up to be working. In this case none of the MoCA devices are making a connection. When I insert the old splitter into the equation (per Phil's earlier advice) I get 2 of the 3 devices working (illustrated in second picture). Apprciate any additional advice. I'm waiting for a MoCA filter to add into the equation but they have been slow to get here. Thanks Drawing1.pdf 51k .pdf file
post #1186 of 1198
Do you need MoCA signals at the cable modem location? Curious as to why you are using diplexers pre/post amp.

Is your Roamio a 4 tuner or 6 tuner model? If it's a 6 tuner did you set up the networking in the TiVo to create a MoCA network or join an existing?

If I were you I'd move the Mini in to the same room as the Roamio, plug both in to the Actiontec Mi424WR located in that room and re-setup the networking on the Roamio to be Ethernet. Make sure there's no coax going in to the Mini, it has to be one or the other. Then check to see if they can talk to each other. If they can't check to see if they both have IPs. If not you're having networking issues outside the TiVO world you need to solve first.
post #1187 of 1198
The Romaio is the 4 tuner without MoCA. I am using the diplexers around the amp as I had read somewhere that they were needed to allow the MoCA signal as the amplifier doesn't support the higher frequencies. Not sure if that is accurate though, but don't think it matters as I've tried it with and without without any luck. As I said in my previous posts, any of the 2 devices on the network will work together, but when I add a third it won't connect. If I remove one and add another it works.
post #1188 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by webcrawlr View Post

Do you need MoCA signals at the cable modem location? Curious as to why you are using diplexers pre/post amp.

Is your Roamio a 4 tuner or 6 tuner model? If it's a 6 tuner did you set up the networking in the TiVo to create a MoCA network or join an existing?

If I were you I'd move the Mini in to the same room as the Roamio, plug both in to the Actiontec Mi424WR located in that room and re-setup the networking on the Roamio to be Ethernet. Make sure there's no coax going in to the Mini, it has to be one or the other. Then check to see if they can talk to each other. If they can't check to see if they both have IPs. If not you're having networking issues outside the TiVO world you need to solve first.

webcrawlr: I also suspect that it's an address conflict.

mlaw8: Please check to see if any of your devices has an address on your network that's the same as any of the others. These addresses are typically in the form 192.168.1.x - (though the first three numbers may be different from this, that's the most common). In most properly-set up networks, the first thee numbers are the same for all devices, with the last number identifying a specific device. If two devices have the same last number, it will cause problems.

To avoid having to manually enter such addresses into each device, on most networks one router is given the role of assigning them, using "Dynamic Host Control Protocol" - DHCP. The host can either use the entire range of values for the last number, from 2 to 256 (the router itself having address 1) or it can be told to start with a number like 10, leaving a range of numbers at the bottom that you can set as unvarying inside individual devices.

Each device can then be either be given a fixed address or set to get its address from the DHCP host. Another convenience of DHCP is that it also tells the device a bunch of other addresses to use to communicate with the outside world that you would otherwise have to enter manually.

If two or more routers are each trying to be the DHCP host, that will cause havoc, which is why the instructions for setting up MOCA at the beginning of this thread include turning off being the DHCP host in the MOCA boxes (which can't assign very many addresses anyway), in favor of the main router, which generally can.

All of this also applies to the Roamio and the Mini - they have to have unique addresses, just like every other device on the network, and they must not try to act as the DHCP host - that job is for the main router.

If my instructions were too cryptic before, I hope this is more comprehensible - and that it isn't called "overthinking" the problem this time.
Edited by Philnick - 1/12/14 at 8:54pm
post #1189 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlaw8 View Post

The Romaio is the 4 tuner without MoCA. I am using the diplexers around the amp as I had read somewhere that they were needed to allow the MoCA signal as the amplifier doesn't support the higher frequencies. Not sure if that is accurate though, but don't think it matters as I've tried it with and without without any luck. As I said in my previous posts, any of the 2 devices on the network will work together, but when I add a third it won't connect. If I remove one and add another it works.
Does the modem location also have a router? Another Mi424WR or other MoCA enabled device? If there's nothing MoCA on that side then take those diplexers out. Each one is costing you 1db in loss. Keep it as simple as possible.

Try doing what I outlined in my previous post. Since it's the 4 tuner Roamio there's no MoCA to enable so just make sure it has an IP and can connect back to TiVo. Bring the Mini in the same room, configure for Ethernet and do the same thing.
post #1190 of 1198
Back for more help if you guys can stomach it...I did what webcrawlr was suggesting (I think) and brought all 3 Mi424WRs together and have each of them off of my main splitter. All 3 are connected and seemingly correctly configured. I've attached screenshots from the Coax stats page of each to see if it provides any clues. When I move them to their proper locations in the house any 2 of them will connect, but I can't get all 3 connected simultaneously. Any further thoughts? The MAC address looks weird on one of the units on the stats page of the other two routers (circled in green). Not sure if that means anything. Thanks

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01
Edited by mlaw8 - 1/21/14 at 3:40pm
post #1191 of 1198

mlaw8, I'm not full-up on your intended application, but it seems to me that the following is what you're dealing with, based on your PDF diagram:

 

The mini connects through either moca/coax or ethernet/cat5.  You're trying for the Moca/coax connection the actiontec connected to the Roamio.  Is that correct?  Then, when you connect a second actiontec to the moca network, the tivo mini drops off?   I'm guessing the second Actiontec is for some other device not drawn in your diagram..    Maybe the Tivo Mini and the Actiontec are not communicating well with each other?  If you have a third Actiontec, you may want to try putting the third actiontec between your Tivo Mini and your Coax.  That would allow the three Actiontec's to handle all the moca conversions and the Tivo Mini would use its Ethernet connection instead of its Moca connetion.  Have you tried this option?

 

I agree with others in that your diplexer-amp-diplexer seems unnecessary, as does your need for an amp on a 6-way splitter.  You should be getting enough signal from the street to go through a single 6-way splitter anyway.  But if in fact that does give your cable modem problems (too strong a signal drop), then you should be able to connect your 6-way splitter directly to the second output of your 2-way splitter and be fine.  Your Tivo Roamio is getting a 3dB drop from your 2way splitter and probably around 7.5dB or so drop from your 6way splitter, which results in a total 10dB drop.  Cable TV signals are usually strong enough to handle that (and more).  As I recall, the signal from the street is usually some 20dB hotter than necessary to accomodate such splitters and poor cabling.  Especially since your drawing shows nothing else on the Moca network up-stream from the 6-way splitter, the diplexers around the amp are to preserve communication with what, exactly?

 

I hope this post is useful and not derailing. 

..dane

post #1192 of 1198

I found this thread just recently and I am getting a basic roamio tomorrow, along with one mini.  I want to setup a moca network for use with OTA.  I have one MI-424-WR rev.F and two DECA Directv wireless bridges.  I followed the instructions at the beginning of this thread for the actiontec and I am receiving internet through it.  I have disabled the the two DECA bridges and have successfully brought my network to my bedroom tv. However, the tv signal does not work in the bedroom tv.  Does this have to do with compatibility of the DECA bridges and OTA?   I have a couple of questions that I hope someone can answer.

 

I am wondering if I should buy another Acitiontec on Ebay, or can I just plug an antenna directly into the back of the tv to get OTA?  I thought I could use the 1 actiontec I have now to bring the network to the downstairs, where the mini will be housed?  Finally, will the mini be able to access the roamio if it only has an ethernet connection?

 

Thank you for any advice you could send my way.

post #1193 of 1198
mlaw-

What are the Rev. numbers of your MI424WRs? The Tivo Mini requires Moca 1.1 and will muck up a network if there is ANY MOCA 1.0 device connected. The Rev. E and higher of the MI424WR are MOCA 1.1, while Rev. A - D are only 1.0. Could this be part of your problem?

I'm currently using a TiVo Premiere 4 in MOCA + Ethernet connected to my router to bridge over MOCA to a MI424WR Rev. E in my theater connected to a TiVo Premiere (2 Tuner), HTPC, Blu-Ray Player, and AVR. I'm planning on adding a TiVo Mini in my livingroom, so I made sure to get a Rev. E or higher MI424WR for the theater.
post #1194 of 1198

I'm a long time reader but first time to post here. Sorry I have to bring up the bandwidth problem again. I read the entire thread!

 

I followed the first post of the thread to build my MOCA bridge two weeks ago. I bought two MI424WR units, Rev C and D, in the beginning but the Rev D was defective. To make sure I would get a working pair I bought another 3, two Rev Es and one Rev F. So totally I have 4 "working" units, 1 C, 2 Es and 1 F. The speed test result by jperf frustrated me! In all of my tests, the units under test were connected to each other via a 6-feet coaxial cable so nothing else on the link affected the results. However, the speed between any 2 of the 4 units were always around 27 megabits/sec if the TCP window size is 8k by default.  With the window size increased gradually to 60k or so, it could eventually get to 90megabits/sec.

 

I clearly remember some people on this thread can get 70~90 megabits without changing TCP window size. It's hard for me to believe all of the 4 units have this problem. Well, I guess I have to believe that if that's the truth. But before I believe all of them are defective, I have to ask "did I miss anything?" or "can I do anything to get that speed".

 

I remember a member on this thread explained a larger window size is necessary to get the speed but why some other lucky people don't need to do anything. The problem here is that we can't always have a control of tcp window size.

 

Really appreciate if anyone can help me out!

post #1195 of 1198
Just double checking (I don't see any recent changes to post #1) is there a way using 2 Actiontec MI424WR Rev, D, F or I to crate a WiFi Access Point on the second Actiontec in bridged MoCa conf.?

Is this a limitation of MoCa 1.1 and can never happen? or perhaps a software patch can do the trick someday?

Thanks,

Gman
post #1196 of 1198

Hi all, I've been slowly working my way through the thread but haven't seen this answer yet (of course there's a lot left to the thread I haven't read yet so maybe I'm just not being patient enough ;)) I have TWC and was thinking about using either the Rev G or Rev I to upgrade my system from the three components that exists now: a cable mode, a wireless G router, and a mi424 Rev D as a MOCA bridge) to a single unit that could do all three functions at once and have the added benefit of upgrading my wireless G to wireless N.  

 

My question is, has anyone who has done this noticed the cable modem WAN causing interference on the MOCA LAN, or vise versa, by using one unit to handle both WAN and LAN?  I know that in theory they should play nice since they operate in different frequency ranges, but what little I've read about many people needing diplexers to clear up interference has me wondering.

 

Also, where is a good spot to get a diplexer?  The best I could find is an 8 pack on tigerdirect that after shipping came out to about 3.45 each.

post #1197 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by abishur View Post
 

Hi all, I've been slowly working my way through the thread but haven't seen this answer yet (of course there's a lot left to the thread I haven't read yet so maybe I'm just not being patient enough ;)) I have TWC and was thinking about using either the Rev G or Rev I to upgrade my system from the three components that exists now: a cable mode, a wireless G router, and a mi424 Rev D as a MOCA bridge) to a single unit that could do all three functions at once and have the added benefit of upgrading my wireless G to wireless N.  

 

My question is, has anyone who has done this noticed the cable modem WAN causing interference on the MOCA LAN, or vise versa, by using one unit to handle both WAN and LAN?  I know that in theory they should play nice since they operate in different frequency ranges, but what little I've read about many people needing diplexers to clear up interference has me wondering.

 

Also, where is a good spot to get a diplexer?  The best I could find is an 8 pack on tigerdirect that after shipping came out to about 3.45 each.

 

Okay I finished the thread and it would *appear* that the answer is yes I can use a single device (let's say a Rev I since I can't find any Rev G on eBay) to act as both my cable modem, primary router, and Primary MOCA point.  I'd post a link but this is only my second post so I can't, but it was in Post #1035.  I had already purchased a 4 pack of Rev D that came out to about 25 each so maybe I'll do an upgrade to the Rev I as the primary at some point in the future.  Very nice thread!

 

Also it's a little sad that 4 years ago everyone was excited about the announcement of MOCA 2.0 and there's not even one device out there that can use it!

post #1198 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by GmanAVS View Post

Just double checking (I don't see any recent changes to post #1) is there a way using 2 Actiontec MI424WR Rev, D, F or I to crate a WiFi Access Point on the second Actiontec in bridged MoCa conf.?

Is this a limitation of MoCa 1.1 and can never happen? or perhaps a software patch can do the trick someday?

Thanks,

Gman

From what I've read there is no problem doing this at all, just don't uncheck wireless in step 8 and then set up your wireless however you want.  Popular methods include:

 

1) Using two different SSIDs and Channels

      Pros: No interference or confusion between devices

      Cons: Have to manually select an SSID to join.

 

2) Using 1 SSID on both Access Points, but using two non-overlapping channels

     Pros: Devices automatically connect to strongest single, don't have to manually pick an AP

     Cons: CAN'T manually pick an AP, not a smooth transition when transition from AP to AP, device can stick to stay attached to initial AP even if another channel is stronger

 

3) Using 1 SSID and Channel on both Access Points

    Pros: Devices automatically connect to strongest signal, smoother transition between AP

    Cons: More set up, have to make sure that AP are not overlapping coverage or else there's interference.

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