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NewB - LONG post need lots of help

post #1 of 23
5/12/09 at 4:56pm
Thread Starter 
SO I don't have a really good idea where to go. All these threads and reviews and I haven't the faintest clue as to what processor would suit me.

I have VERY basic needs. I use a LG BH200 Bluray / HDDVD player (an oldie by today standards I am sure). I don't game (except the Wii for the GF). I don't have anything else except the Panasonic 50" plasma.

SO basically I am trying to decide on speakers and AVR. Right now I just have the STB running to the TV video component cables. I also have the LG running to the TV via Component cables.

I am NOT an audiophile nor would I know the difference between great and good. I know I get sound right now out of the TV and it's not loud and doesn't sound great for watching movies. I DO NOT listen to music in the house except for the genre specific stations on my cable box (80's, 90's, Rap, Rock, etc). I would imagine its just stereo sound.

I don't have the first clue as to what lossless sound is, or DTS or HighDef sound or any of that. I wish I did (maybe not cause it might get expensive )

I don't need XM, or Ipod capabilities or multi rooms (I live in an apartment and will for a couple years). I don't have the ability to run cables for 5.1 or 7.1 so I am stuck to probably for now a SOUNDBAR (I have been getting talked OUT of it by the speaker forum here) or a small set of bookshelf speakers until I can upgrade (move to a dedicated space for an audio system).

I really like it loud (not SQ although that Does matter, but just loud). Currently my space is 22'18'9' and I am trying out the Polk Audio DVD 360 and it's KINDA loud, but still I play it at MAX for movies and it's lacking a lot. I have the Martin and Logan Abyss Sub and that is plenty loud for now (with where I am).

SO since I have no clue as to how to use all the really high end pre/pros I was wondering what people would recommend for LOTS of nice power, say 5 channels just so I don't have to upgrade the Pre/Pro again later when I do move.

DO I go a cheaper Pre/Pro with preouts and get an amp? Can I just buy an AVR that does 120W x 5 or 120x7 and get away with that? Again I don't have the speakers to go with it yet (which might be the catch 22 I think it is). The soundbar I MIGHT get is the Polk Audio Soundbar 50 (150W per channel x 5 channels). There isn't an Pre/Pro out there that does 150W per channel or if there is it's $6000 but haven't found one yet. Is that why people use amps?

So I have a budget of $2000 for the speakers and Pre/Pro. That enough? Would it make sense to get a REALLY NICE Pre/Pro for now and just get cheaper speakers and then use those as surrounds later when I get a REAL speaker system?

Any recommendations? Told ya it was long.. I have soo many questions jeez.

Thanks again
Ryan
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post #2 of 23
5/12/09 at 5:00pm
Divide it into $1500-1700 speakers and $300-500 AVR. You can get good SQ, and loud with efficient speakers and the right amp.

I'll let others throw their ideal $2000 system at you.
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post #3 of 23
5/12/09 at 7:42pm
Thread Starter 
But don't the $1500-$1700 speakers take like 150W + per channel? There aren't any AVR's or Pre/Pro's that can put out that much power.... or are there?

That is the problem that I have. All the cheaper AVR's or Receivers or whatever don't put out a lot of power. See my dilemma?

Any recommendation on Receivers for my issues? I was thinking more along the lines of $1500 receiver and $500 front speakers (since I can't connect more than 2 at the moment anyways and I would rather drop the money on the receiver now than even more again later to upgrade the receiver.

I thought about even a $2000 receiver and then cheaper speakers. I see a TON of decent (specs only) speakers for pretty cheap.

I would go and talk to someone in the HT market here but I have a feeling they would just steer me to buying $$ rather than good.

Ryan
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post #4 of 23
5/12/09 at 8:12pm
Ryan,

You don't need a lot of power if your speakers are efficient. With many brands the more expensive models are the ones that are more efficient. Look for speakers that fit your application and then look at their sensitivity rating. A sensitivity of 90db or better anechoically (Some measure in room) will be fine by a less expensive receiver.

Putting the bigger part of your budget into speakers will give you the best sound. $1500 speaker system and $500 receiver will be fine. There is so many different brands and manny people will give you their opinions. Make sure the suggestions will work for your application. Don't use the wrong type of speakers for you situation. Knowing your situation might help recommending the type of speaker that would work best for you.

Bob
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post #5 of 23
5/12/09 at 8:26pm
Thread Starter 
Bob,

Thanks for the reply. Basically I am in an apartment now with not a ton of room. I was looking at a soundbar (polk soundbar 50) that does 150W per channel. I figured if i powered it with a really nice receiver at say 110+ Watts per channel than it would sound better (read louder) than what i have now which is lacking.

Everyone said to NOT get a soundbar, but i have no room for speakers in the setup I have. So bookshelfs are even a little big. I can probably deal with something like Orbs cause they are so small anything bigger would be tough.

Also when I am able to move I would think I can't use the receiver (if I buy a cheap one) with the new 5.1 or 7.1 setup I will get in the future. So if I buy the GOOD receiver now I won't have to upgrade in a year or two when I do move into a place I can have a real setup in.

Also if i bought decent speakers (read $500 bookshelf or something) I could then move then to the rears and use them as surrounds later and not have wasted the money.

Thoughts?

Ryan

p.s. Are there any older model (1 or 2 year old ones) that are lacking in inputs and outputs that have a ton of power that I should look at for receivers?
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post #6 of 23
5/12/09 at 9:35pm
A big powerful receiver will not make a big sound with crap speakers. For $2K you can get an excellent set of speakers (small, medium or large) that will sound great with any medium priced amp.

If you say the space is tight, then some Canton speakers (Bose size) will sound like a concert hall with a $250 30 watt per channel refurb Harman Kardon.

http://www.canton.de/en-produktdetai...-movie80cx.htm

You could go with the 120's as well. If your space was larger, I would recommend something else. But, even the 80's I linked to above, will sound better in a 15'x20' room than an expensive amp.

You only need more watts when you have more space to fill.
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post #7 of 23
5/12/09 at 9:51pm
Thread Starter 
Mlk:

thanks. What about the ORB speakers? I have read good things about them and they are TINY.

Also I found the Yamaha RX-V2700 for $600 open box on 6th ave electronic (140x7) so that could be future proof for a bit for me I would think no?

I don't really need HDMI which is the only thing that it lacks since I use component cables for my bluray and STB to the TV.

Would that work? I don't mind spending a little more on the receiver, with still $1000 - $1500 for speakers (although I still would like to spend $500 on the front two and use them as surrounds later on.

Ryan
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post #8 of 23
5/12/09 at 9:54pm
You are focusing too much on the number of watts. Forget about the watts. That is not the piece of information that will lead you to the best solution for your needs. Just about anything you buy will be loud enough to give you hearing damage within the length of a movie or even much shorter (and you won't accidentally run into the exceptions to this rule). Don't worry about how loud you will be able to make it play. I know this is the main problem with your TV, but really any receiver+speakers will play much louder.

Buy a receiver from a respected brand (Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, Marantz, Pioneer, HK, not necessarily in this order) that has the number of connections you need. You might also like features like room correction and dynamic volume (it can automatically make the LOUD commercials more bearable, which may be a nice feature if you generally listen loud).

What speaker configurations could you make work in your room? Personally, I would much rather have a pair of bookshelf or tower speakers and a center channel speaker (or third bookshelf/tower) than a sound bar. But that may be because I like good music reproduction, or perhaps because I like the many options for speakers where the sound bar options are comparatively quite limited. Speakers don't all sound the same (even to non-audiophiles), and it is nice to have a choice.

Ultimately, the sound bar may indeed suit your needs better than separate speakers (or not). But don't make this choice based on the number of watts!

-Max
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post #9 of 23
5/12/09 at 10:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidoprof View Post

Mlk:
I don't really need HDMI which is the only thing that it lacks since I use component cables for my bluray and STB to the TV.

Would that work? I don't mind spending a little more on the receiver, with still $1000 - $1500 for speakers (although I still would like to spend $500 on the front two and use them as surrounds later on.

Ryan

Are you sure you do not need HDMI? This is where everything is going to now. Does the plasma have at least one HDMI input? Seriously, I would forgo that Yamaha receiver and get some newer model that is still in the $500 price point. Through HDMI, you will get to experience the latest codecs such as Dolby True HD. Your HD-DVD/blu-ray player has it, but must be hooked up via HDMI to take advantage of the latest surround formats. You stated that you are not audiophile. No one has to be audiophile to appreciate the SQ the HD formats have to offer. Also you are looking at wattage as if you are looking for horsepower in a sports car. Its not like that at all. In reality, you will only experience in increase of maybe 3db spl by DOUBLING the 'continuous' wattage output of a given amp or receiver!!

Consider speakers by Klipcsh or Paradigm Monitor series. Their sensitivity ratings will let you realize loudness with little wattage needed like around 50 to 70 at most. The speaker choice is the most critical over a receiver, go out and audition them. Ask the salesperson to switch between different brands and keep the volume setting the same. You will hear variations in volume output and the louder speakers will have more efficient sensitivity ratings around 90 to 92db or even better. Those are the ones to focus on, of course if they sound good to you as well.
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post #10 of 23
5/12/09 at 10:55pm
As far as Klipsch goes, search for the Quintet models, they are smaller that bookshelfs, but they do scream!! And they sound good. Its a five speaker set that I believe goes for under $500. Even though, I have not heard the ORBs, It maybe the way to go as well, with their 89db sensitivity rating (decent, actually good for a small speaker) and the claimed long term 107db spl output (THAT's LOUD, hearing damage can result, but that spec maybe based on a 1 meter distance measurement). Maybe ORB owners could reiterate this or confirm.
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post #11 of 23
5/12/09 at 11:00pm
Thread Starter 
Ok I think I understand now.. thank you for the Horse power analogy. It really made sense.

The Yamaha 2700 after further review has 3 HDMI Inputs and 1 HDMI output. My TV has 2 HDMI inputs. It also has (the Yamaha) 3 component inputs as well and 1 component video out.

I don't have many needs right now (nor do I think in the future). I have 1 bluray player LG-BH200, A WII, and occasionally my friend brings over the PS3 to play games. That's it. I don't ever listen to music unless it's one of those TV radio stations with Genre specific music.

I watch TV (sports) and movies.

I wish I could post a pic of the room. There is barely any room for bookshelf speakers (it will be crowded with those) and no room for floor standing ones for sure, but the soundbar fits on in front of the TV (which is why i thought it would work).

Anything that is REALLY small will work (like ORB audio) www.orbaudio.com or something similar.

Unless someone can tell me of another $500 - $700 receiver (open box or refurb is fine) that is better than the Yamaha V2700 I think I am buying that one.

Thoughts?

thanks again for all the replies

Ryan
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post #12 of 23
5/12/09 at 11:32pm
I highly recommend the Cantons. They are one of the most respected speaker makers in Europe. If you get a chance to compare the Orbs with Cantons, do so.

The Yamaha you picked is fine. It's a 2007 model, if you're fine with that.

I'd get any new AVR with Dolby HD and DTS HD.
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post #13 of 23
5/12/09 at 11:37pm
Forget that Yamaha, it's outdated (no lossless audio support, except maybe via LPCM off the PS3, but YOU don't own the ps3). And it's a three year old model, surprised to see it offered for sale in some places.

These two models are better for the money. I especially like the Onkyo, good bang for the buck.


http://www.accessories4less.com/make...eceiver/1.html

http://www.accessories4less.com/make...r-BLACK/1.html
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post #14 of 23
5/13/09 at 12:24am
Thread Starter 
Ok so NO Dolby HD or DTS EX. Not that I know what they mean.

The Marantz looks good but less powerful of course. I know wattage doesn't mean much, but it has to mean something. 140W vs 95W.. That's a big deal.

The onkyo doesn't have Optical Out so I think that is out. I need to go from there to the TV or Wii or somewhere no?

I hear Onkyo's run REALLY hot too. I don't mind spending a $700 on the receiver if it gets me a much better one, but the Yamaha just seemed perfect with everything I wanted (but I don't know what I want really.. I have no idea what DOLBY HD or DTS EX is.

Ryan
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post #15 of 23
5/13/09 at 5:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyphrex View Post

Forget that Yamaha, it's outdated (no lossless audio support, except maybe via LPCM off the PS3, but YOU don't own the ps3). And it's a three year old model, surprised to see it offered for sale in some places.

These two models are better for the money. I especially like the Onkyo, good bang for the buck.


http://www.accessories4less.com/make...eceiver/1.html

http://www.accessories4less.com/make...r-BLACK/1.html

That 2700 will do lossless from any source that does it. My 2600 is doing it from a ToshibaXA1,A35 and Sony S550. It also does it from a 79AVI DVD player. That is a very good receiver to own if you don't have to see Dolby True HD or DTS HD displayed on the led readout. When and if you do get a BD player it play along just fine with it.
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post #16 of 23
5/13/09 at 6:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidoprof View Post

Ok so NO Dolby HD or DTS EX. Not that I know what they mean.

The Marantz looks good but less powerful of course. I know wattage doesn't mean much, but it has to mean something. 140W vs 95W.. That's a big deal.

The onkyo doesn't have Optical Out so I think that is out. I need to go from there to the TV or Wii or somewhere no?

I hear Onkyo's run REALLY hot too. I don't mind spending a $700 on the receiver if it gets me a much better one, but the Yamaha just seemed perfect with everything I wanted (but I don't know what I want really.. I have no idea what DOLBY HD or DTS EX is.

Ryan

DTS HD and Dolby TRUE HD are the latest surround formats that blu-ray uses and are of the highest quality sound, maybe better than CD sound quality if not the same. Think Am radio sound vs. Cd quality sound when comparing the old Pro-Logic or Dolby Digital. Why do you want to run optical to the Tv? Really, that's pointless. The best way to hook up gear is all sources to the AVR (wii, stb, blu-ray, etc) and from the AVR just one cable like HDMI to the Video display (plasma flat panel). Wattage is not a big deal, just so long as you get speakers that are efficient. You want to look for a receiver that has a feature set that works best for your needs and make life a little easier. I would look for a receiver, that will convert all video sources to HDMI (wii, stb). You still seem concerned about the wattage. Here is the theoretical breakdown: A good speaker is playing at 99db spl(Real loud) off 95 watts. Suppose you can put 145 watts into that same speaker, the result is maybe an increase of 1.5 db give or take and get 100.5 db spl. That's not much more volume, hardly discernible. If volume is really that a big deal, do not fart around with satellite speakers and go with bookshelf or even towers!!! You cannot push a lot of air with those tiny 3 or 4 inch drivers in those little speakers. Simple laws of physics, bigger speakers will play louder with more and bigger drivers. There is one company (LEGACY) that designs their speakers solely based on that philosophy and of course all their lines are: Big. Contrary to popular belief, larger speakers are usually easier to drive with less power. Check out the Klipsch RF line and as before as I mentioned the Paradigms Monitor line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom52 View Post

That 2700 will do lossless from any source that does it. My 2600 is doing it from a ToshibaXA1,A35 and Sony S550. It also does it from a 79AVI DVD player. That is a very good receiver to own if you don't have to see Dolby True HD or DTS HD displayed on the led readout. When and if you do get a BD player it play along just fine with it.

That could be done with one caveat (the player only sends True HD via LPCM mode), he will need a newer AVR that will decode all formats via bitstream once he gets the firmware update.

Here is the thread for more info on the LG player
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1009104
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post #17 of 23
5/13/09 at 6:55am
The Onkyos that run hot are simply because they are high current designs that theoretically give more robust and cleaner power (there you go) and be able to drive more difficult speaker loads. My Yamaha runs real hot, but I have no issues with it. If you like Yamaha, consider some newer models, but some of them get expensive. Unfortunately, I am not impressed with their new 65 series. For about the same price you could go back a year and look for models that offer so much more. If you can somehow get an Rx-V1900 in your price point, that would be a deal!!
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post #18 of 23
5/13/09 at 7:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyphrex View Post

DTS HD and Dolby TRUE HD are the latest surround formats that blu-ray uses and are of the highest quality sound, maybe better than CD sound quality if not the same. Think Am radio sound vs. Cd quality sound when comparing the old Pro-Logic or Dolby Digital.

If you take Pro-Logic out of this sentence, the rest is simply not supported by any data or study anywhere. To suggest to the OP that, for example, the comparrison between Dolby True HD and Dolby Digital or DTS HD and DTS is like AM radio vs FM radio is just silly. He is confused enough. Perhaps posting subjective ideas as fact isn't the way to go.
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post #19 of 23
5/13/09 at 7:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhasa-lover View Post

If you take Pro-Logic out of this sentence, the rest is simply not supported by any data or study anywhere. To suggest to the OP that, for example, the comparrison between Dolby True HD and Dolby Digital or DTS HD and DTS is like AM radio vs FM radio is just silly. He is confused enough. Perhaps posting subjective ideas as fact isn't the way to go.

Good point. Just hate to see people miss out on the potential SQ lossless audio has to offer.
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post #20 of 23
5/13/09 at 7:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidoprof View Post

The Marantz looks good but less powerful of course. I know wattage doesn't mean much, but it has to mean something. 140W vs 95W.. That's a big deal.

No it isn't a big deal.

First, you have to take most AVR (audio video receiver) amp ratings with a large grain of salt, as most of them are exaggerated and might be as much as x2 to x3 the actual power in realistic use.

An AVR that isn't playing games with it's power ratings, in the tech specs will say something like this

"All channels driven" or "5 channels driven" and "20 hz - 20 kHz"

Many will list the power for one or two channels driven or at 1 kHz. Both of these will inflate the claimed power.

Most AVRs use a "pool" of power that is divided up among the various channels. So if only one or two channels are in use there is much more power available than if all 5 or 7 channels are in use.

The 1 kHz rating likewise inflates power, because generating power at a single frequency takes less power than covering a wide range of frequencies.

Second as cyphrex said. You have to DOUBLE your power to get a 3 db increase in sound levels.

So 140 wpc vs 95 wpc is only a 50% increase in power and that is roughly a 1.5db increase in SPL, which is basically inaudible. Assuming that the 140 wpc is even an accurate figure.

Third, those efficiency ratings people have mentioned are with 1 watt of power. So if you double that power 6 times, which is an 18db increase in SPL, you are only using 64 watts (2x2x2x2x2x2) of power. With a 92db efficient speaker that gets you up to 110 db, which is very, very loud. Jet Engine loud.
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post #21 of 23
5/13/09 at 7:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TPnBobcats View Post


Third, those efficiency ratings people have mentioned are with 1 watt of power. So if you double that power 6 times, which is an 18db increase in SPL, you are only using 64 watts (2x2x2x2x2x2) of power. With a 92db efficient speaker that gets you up to 110 db, which is very, very loud. Jet Engine loud.

Crap, I knew I forget to mention that, that alone is a very important statement and gets the point across. Good catch!!
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post #22 of 23
5/13/09 at 6:54pm
Ryan,

Pick what is best for your application! If you don't have the space for bookshelves on stands and you are going to just place the speakers on the TV stand with the TV then the sound bar might be a good option. Here are some suggestions:

If your space will allow separate surround speakers then use an LCR sound bar up front and surrounds in the side/back. NO surround bar beats dedicated surrounds when possible.

We use Atlantic Technology (FS-4000, FS-5000) and Triad (Mini LCR 3.0/SE)for these types of installations. You'll have to add a sub, receiver and surrounds. There are many other brands as well, these are just the ones I am familiar.

If you don't have room for surrounds.
Yamaha YSP-4000 with a good sub. We have used the Polk surround 50 and I'd definitely use the Yamaha for surround sound applications. There are many surround bars out there and I have yet to find one that does a better job with surround effects or creating a wide front soundstage. There are some that do better for music but not surround. If you are looking at surround bars and it only has 5 or 6 speakers/ tweeters it will probably not compete against the Yamaha with 40 tweeters angled in different directions. Plus the Yamaha has a lot of tweakability and the my Beam feature is really cool. You don't need a receiver with the Yamaha it is all built in.

If you use a receiver don't worry about the power. To raise the sound 3db which isn't much louder you have to double the power. If you need this type of power you either need separates or better speakers that are more efficient. If you use a speaker with 91db sensitivity and feed it 50 watts a speaker with 85db sensitivity would need 200W to reach the same volume level. And the better speakers tend to have better sound qualities as well. That is why better speakers is a win/win situation and why it is recommended to put the bulk of your money in the speakers.

With small satellite speakers it can be tough to find speakers with 90+db sensitivity with some exceptions (mostly horn speakers). You usually need bookshelves or larger speakers to reach 90db sensitivity.

hope this helps.

bob
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post #23 of 23
5/13/09 at 7:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidoprof View Post

The Marantz looks good but less powerful of course. I know wattage doesn't mean much, but it has to mean something. 140W vs 95W.. That's a big deal.

Ryan

No it's not a big deal. A doubling of the wattage provides a 3db increase in achievable volume levels.

Providing both measurements were done using the same exact method in the same exact way....which is doubtful, the difference between 140 and 95 would equal 1.5db of headroom which wouldn't be noticed until the amps were driven the point they were taxed, at any rate 1.5 db isn't a big deal.

What is a big deal and matters far more in relation to how loud a system can be played is speaker efficiency.

http://everything2.com/title/Speaker%2520efficiency
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