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Samsung PNXXB850 & PNXXB860 Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 5

post #121 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcdo View Post

Thanks for the review Chad! Just one question. I noticed in your G10 review you measured a modified ANSI of 3892 in Custom mode and with the 8 series Samsungs you're getting 883. Am I comparing apples to oranges or is there really that big a significant difference in black levels. Do you remember what the modified ANSI of the Kuro was? Thanks.

Yes, you're right, and I forgot just how good the G10 was in that regard! The 3892 ANSI of the G10 is real, and is a truly great result. The Sammys do beat the 800u, though, which measures 551 ANSI.
I haven't done a contrast measurement of a Kuro yet, because the meter I use for contrast measurements would be tricky to mount or hold in place without either a) leaving a larger gap for bordering light to contaminate the readings or b) risk damaging the Kuro's extra delicate surface.
post #122 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

I actually was not aware of the feature list of each set, so I didn't know that the B860 was supposed to have a better anti glare coating. In the room they were in, it actually seemed the opposite, but it may have been due to where they were mounted: the B550 was high up on the wall, typical over-the-fireplace type of mounting; looking up at it from sitting on the floor (I usually set my equipment up on the floor to calibrate) it did not seem to be picking up much glare or reflection. The B860 was sitting on the floor, at my eye level, and I was often aware of seeing my reflection when looking at it.
I would not consider this the last word on the subject. Glare bothers me too, but it's not something that I was able to fairly compare due to the different mounting. With them being at very different heights and slightly different angles, they were probably reflecting different parts of the room.

The ultra filterbright plus over the filterbright of the 5 series has more of an effect on perceived contrast in rooms with ambient light than it does with glare. If you see both sets turned off it is obvious the 8 series has a much darker screen. I don't think this is something that you can effectively measure with equipment, though side by side the 8 series has better picture quality.
post #123 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Thank you very much Chad for the review!

"Blacks looked very deep in this environment; from the measurements I know the blacks are not quite as deep as the G10 and Kuros, but in a typical living room it's hard to tell."

This review pretty much confirms what everyone already knew, and what many of us have been saying all along--the Sammys are capable of reproducing rich accurate colors, a slightly sharper more detailed pic than their competitors, but they just aren't quite there yet on the blacks. This is Samsung's top plasma this year and it is not even as dark as the mid-range G10 Panny. If Samsung could just get the blacks significantly deeper next year there would be no more need for a Kuro. I think Samsung's 50% lower blacks claim was a bit of hype.

This just show how much you know about your plasmas.. I dont even think that you have seen a G10 with a statement like thiat. The blacks on a g10 is very black and is only been blacker by the kuro in the flatscreen world.. The G10 is actually having the same panel as the V10 and give the same blacks as it also when you calibrate it.. And that is exelent blacks. Not far behind the kuro. G10 has its flaws but in the black department it is very good.. And if this set is just behind it, that is tird best in the flatscreen world... Second, I think not only you but others and jumping a litle to conclution here. Try read between the lines in this revirew. Mr Chad thinks that this is a great sets I am reading and that is not bad coming fron a calibrator as him.. Also when he is comparing to the kuro all the time, and even beets the kuro in some section that say very much about the set... I think that this set got an exelent review here, you do in fact need a pitch black room top see that the kuro beets it in black.. It beets the kuro in other detartments and even getting compared to a kuro in a review is just great.. Not many panels have benn that in any review and that just tels me we are talking about a great set... And again, this has better PQ than ANY lcd ever... Those of you like this guy documaker should try to have a look at it before you make any conclution.. In mine eyes (not becose I own a set my self, but because I have owned many high-end sets both lcd and plasmas and also the kuro) this is one of the best ever.. So are the 550!! Samsung have done a very good job in the 09 plasma I think and just because it does not beet the kuro in the black department that does not say that it is a bad set at all.. No panels beet the kuro. not yet.

Even if the G10 is mid range in price and looks it is the same panel/pq and blacks as the V10 and z1... The only difference is the controls.. And this is exelent blacks I can asure you...

EDIT: I just want to correct my selfe a litle.. Actually, most sets do get compared to the kurp - but not many have found so good that the tester have bother to mention them in the comparison..

Jens
post #124 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbmannc View Post

The ultra filterbright plus over the filterbright of the 5 series has more of an effect on perceived contrast in rooms with ambient light than it does with glare. If you see both sets turned off it is obvious the 8 series has a much darker screen. I don't think this is something that you can effectively measure with equipment, though side by side the 8 series has better picture quality.

Makes sense. During the brightest hours at the beginning of the comparison, I did see that the B550's screen looked milkier than the B860's with both sets turned off. During the actual viewing comparison I didn't see the difference, possibly due to the difference diminishing/vanishing when the blacks are actually lit up or due to the lower overall room light when I did the viewing (the sun had started to set).
post #125 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbmannc View Post

The ultra filterbright plus over the filterbright of the 5 series has more of an effect on perceived contrast in rooms with ambient light than it does with glare. If you see both sets turned off it is obvious the 8 series has a much darker screen. I don't think this is something that you can effectively measure with equipment, though side by side the 8 series has better picture quality.

That is 100% correct and this have been made by samsung to keep the blacks better during daytime conditions.. Thy actually have a name on it "real black filter"

Jens
post #126 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXM View Post

As much as i liked my LX508D for the black level,i always felt the image was a little soft and the picture a bit noisy for my liking,i think this screen will be perfect for me as i never watch tv in total dark anyway.
I may change my mined when it arrives next week lol

I see you prefer LED/LCD that's great,but the flashing would drive me mad
I do like your comments because it make the forum more interesting!!!


Hi MXM,

Actually if one happened to read all my comments in context, he would find that I do not prefer LED/LCD. I am always quite willing to point out the flaws in these sets. I actually prefer PDP's if one has a controlled lighting environment. If one watches in a very bright environment, yes a dim plasma doesn't quite satisfy like an LED/LCD.

I just want a thin plasma that puts out a bright enough picture to compete with LCD's during high ambient light situations, and one that can also deliver crisp whites when a lot of white content is on the screen, without buzzing!

I want a thin LED that doesn't have screen uniformity issues, flashlights and bad viewing angles!

I will become a fanboy of whichever technology overcomes these hurdles best.

I must say however, my plasma doesn't buzz loud enough to bother me, (although it does buzz a bit), and I don't watch much TV during the day so I am usually watching under more moderate lighting conditions. So for me, plasma is the better fit. I only wish I had a Luxia or a locally-dimmed LED on those occasions when the living room is bathed in afternoon sun for several hours. It would look better than the plasma on those occasions.

I also want to point out that I am not down on Samsung plasmas. I think they provide a great bang for the buck, and they offer the sleekest looking sets of the bunch. Sammy is first to market with their thin plasma; we are still waiting for Panasonic and LG. So I think the 860 is a fabulous set, and I would gladly take one in my home...perhaps when the prices come down a bit. They are only $2000 right now for the 50.

I only wish that Samsung had a $3000 model that put out deeper blacks. Or better yet, I wish Pioneer made a thin Kuro.

I just would like to see:

1) 9G Kuro-like blacks
2) LCD-like whites
3) 1 inch thick
4) Sharp detailed picture like on the Luxia with nice colors
5) Nice processing with upconversion like on the best Toshibas

P.S. I have also noticed that the with all the great things the Kuros do, like accurate colors, good processing, and deepest blacks, they do not always give the sharpest and most detailed picture possible. I think a Luxia is sharper and more detailed looking.
post #127 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Thank you very much Chad for the review!

"Blacks looked very deep in this environment; from the measurements I know the blacks are not quite as deep as the G10 and Kuros, but in a typical living room it's hard to tell."

This review pretty much confirms what everyone already knew, and what many of us have been saying all along--the Sammys are capable of reproducing rich accurate colors, a slightly sharper more detailed pic than their competitors, but they just aren't quite there yet on the blacks. This is Samsung's top plasma this year and it is not even as dark as the mid-range G10 Panny. If Samsung could just get the blacks significantly deeper next year there would be no more need for a Kuro. I think Samsung's 50% lower blacks claim was a bit of hype.


To say that the Samsungs are not quite there yet on the blacks is a bit unfair in the context of Chad's comment "it's hard to tell". In addition, the "mid-range" G10 by all accounts will not be a lot different to the G15, V10 and probably also Z1 in terms of overall PQ, black levels and colour accuracy. In many posts and reviews the benefits of these "higher" models is not in the PQ area or even in better controls over color and picture settings but rather gimmicks! In short, these Samsungs are a very big threat to the Panny's in as much as they are 1" thick at a much better price, provide better colour accuracy, crisper images, more controls and very close black levels.
post #128 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by bertzz99 View Post

To say that the Samsungs are not quite there yet on the blacks is a bit unfair in the context of Chad's comment "it's hard to tell". In addition, the "mid-range" G10 by all accounts will not be a lot different to the G15, V10 and probably also Z1 in terms of overall PQ, black levels and colour accuracy. In many posts and reviews the benefits of these "higher" models is not in the PQ area or even in better controls over color and picture settings but rather gimmicks! In short, these Samsungs are a very big threat to the Panny's in as much as they are 1" thick at a much better price, provide better colour accuracy, crisper images, more controls and very close black levels.

Everyone keeps saying the Samsungs are at a better price than the Panny's, but I just don't see it. Best price I have seen on a 50" B850 is $1900 and the B860 is a few hundred more than that. The 50" V10 was $1999 at the one place that had it for a few days and will likely be about the same price ast the B850 when more stores obtain it.
post #129 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by andygeerlings View Post

That's what happens when you keep trying to convince a whole forum by posting the same things about LED/LCD in a plasma thread on a plasma forumsection again and again and again

I think that's a statement most people won't get into an argument with you about.
It's common knowledge that LCD usually does better then plasma in a bright environment

I personally wouldn't buy the edge backlit LED TV's btw.
If I'd buy LCD I'd go for a screen that does local dimming, like the A950 and B750. Or otherwise the much cheaper B650. No flashlighting for me...

Projectors have their own set of drawbacks compared to TV's...

I have a PN50A550 and it works just fine at daytime. As far as I've read the B's will do even better, so I think thats a very black/white statement.
Personally, if I'd pickup LCD again, I'd mostly do so for its other advantages (quiet operation, no worries about IR, lower powerconsumption, less bulk).


1) At well over 100 inches, I think I could learn to live with most of the drawbacks of projection!

2) Just to clarify. If you will notice, I didn't say that LCD's were necessarily superior for daytime viewing, but what I said was "bright" daytime viewing. I have a nearly 50 square foot window that faces directly opposite my 50 inch plasma, and when the afternoon sun hits I can assure you a much brighter LED/LCD would be more satisfying during those conditions. I can take Jimi out of movie mode, drop him into standard, crank the contrast up to 100 and he is still is not bright enough to satisfy me. Of course I only have a 50 inch A450 768p. But don't giggle, for the price I paid I could buy three of 'em for the price of one 50 inch B850!

I could always invest in a thick set of curtains. But we get so little sun here, that one really should be outside enjoying the weather when it is sunny anyway, and not inside watching TV.

3) As for those folks on the '09 Sammy plasma forum? Well, if they want me to not talk about LED/LCD's on their plasma forum, then they should stop spreading disinformation and I wouldn't have to correct them. The top of the line Samsung LED's and LCD's this year are either darker or just as dark as the 850/860, and I had to fight them tooth and nail to drive this point home, but some stereotypes are hard to overcome, such as the oft-quoted one which says that plasmas give better blacks than LCD's. Well maybe Kuros and the latest Panasonics give better blacks, but not the Samsung PDP's! I think the Luxia and the locally dimmed 9000 coming out from Samsung will give darker blacks, and I also think the B750 LCD will give the 850/860 a run for the money in blacks.

Those folks on the '09 Sammy plaz forum would be much better off picking on the LED's/LCD's not for their black levels, since they have impressively pulled even with the average plasma, but for the bad viewing angles and clouding/flashlights. The bluish blacks when you are off-angle and the screen uniformity issues are the real dealbreakers when it comes to LCD/LED. I think the motion is getting pretty smooth this year, if dialed in properly.
post #130 of 3219
Impressive review chad under the conditions you actually measured.
post #131 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemmy999 View Post

Everyone keeps saying the Samsungs are at a better price than the Panny's, but I just don't see it. Best price I have seen on a 50" B850 is $1900 and the B860 is a few hundred more than that. The 50" V10 was $1999 at the one place that had it for a few days and will likely be about the same price ast the B850 when more stores obtain it.

Yes but the V10 is not 1" thick! The 1" Z1 is going to have a separate box (tuner) and will be a lot more expensive than than Sammy 850.
post #132 of 3219
Jens, I know that in another thread you told me that you understand me well, even though English is not your native language, but I am beginning to wonder. Where did I ever say or imply that the G10 did not have impressive black levels? You will not find it. Still it has got a ways to go before it can approach 9G Kuro levels. So your "not far behind a Kuro" may be true for an 8G Kuro, but is simply not the case when comparing to a 9G Kuro. Your bias or ignorance is also on display here when you say the Samsung 860 is "third best" in the flat panel world. Total nonsense! Have you even taken delivery of your 855 yet? Why should we take your word for it? You are obviously just giddy that you have an 855 on the way, and have no sense of objectivity right now. Perhaps in a couple months when the euphoria subsides...

As for your convoluted and contorted logic, asserting that the Samsung is "third best" in blacks in the flatscreen world, (not even flat panel, but flat screen) I just have to laugh at your rationale. You are basing this faulty rationale all upon one off-hand comment in a review by Chad B., who said the 860 was "not quite as deep" as a G10.

**NEWS FLASH**

This same Chad B. did a comparison of the Luxia LED to the Panny G10, (one would assume using the same equipment), and he said the Luxia had slightly deeper blacks than the G10, albeit it wasn't by much, but it was noticeable in a dark room.

So if everyone can agree that the 9G Kuros are darkest, and the 8G Kuros are next, and the Luxia is slightly ahead or even with the G10, and the Samsung is "not quite as deep" as the G10, then how on earth do you figure the Samsung to be in third place, or even fourth place for that matter? When the dust finally settles by the end of 2009 it probably won't even be in in the top five!

Every time I try to damper the rampant enthusiasm of these new or potentially-new Samsung PDP owners with a small dose of objectivity, they call me an LED or LCD fanboy.

One doesn't have to be an LED fanboy to point out the facts. The facts are that the Luxia LED's deliver deeper blacks than the Sammy plasmas. Just accept it. Of course the fanboys only retort to the facts is that the LED's/LCD's couldn't possibly have the shadow detail that you will get with the PDP, in MUST be crushed to even come close to competing with a plaz.

Well let me tell you, you folks better start taking some better shots then, because all the pics I've seen so far of these new Samsung plasmas, the blacks are crushed to oblivion, including the two pics on the first page or two of this thread!

Even after calibration, Chad confessed, "dark images looked a little too dark, and shadow detail was a little hard to see."

I have absolutely no problem with people liking Samsung plasmas and calling them beautiful displays and a great bang for you buck, etc. Just don't make foolish assertions by saying they are the third blackest flatscreens on the planet. You only destroy your own credibility by being so biased.

One other thing. I have read three (very brief) reviews by Chad B so far. I value his opinion and am grateful that he takes the time to share his professional impressions. But the truth is, he said great things about the G10 and the Luxia as well, so you shouldn't take positive comments in his review of the Sammy to mean that he thinks it is the best display out there. Chad actually said that for his own personal circumstances, he preferred the Luxia over the G10, and acknowledged that others with a different set of circumstances might arrive at a different conclusion.

"Also when he is comparing to the kuro all the time, and even beets the kuro in some section that say very much about the set... "

The Kuros are excellent displays, but no one ever claimed (at least I hope not) that they are perfect. Different displays may be able to beat the Kuro in this or that particular detail, but what of it? Many people (including myself) have recognized that the Kuro is not always the display with the least noise and sharpest picture. I already stated that some of Samsung's LED's put out out a sharper more detailed pic. From this review, it looks as if the high-end Plasmas from Samsung may as well. This does not surprise me one bit. We already know the Samsung's can do accurate colors and put out a sharper picture. We were all waiting with baited breath to see about what Samsung is NOT known for...the deep blacks! There's always next year!

"And again, this has better PQ than ANY lcd ever... "

According to whom? You are entitled to your opinion. You may even be right. But you do not come across as objective.

"In mine eyes (not becose I own a set my self, but because I have owned many high-end sets both lcd and plasmas and also the kuro) this is one of the best ever.. So are the 550!!"

Ahem! I've seen the 550, and of course it is not anywhere close to being the best ever. You are entitled to your opinion of course. But everyone can see you are not objective in the least. You have not even owned the set long enough to make such a confident assertion. Have you even taken delivery and unboxed yours yet? Have you even broken it in yet? Yet you are already acting like a high school cheerleader calling it the best ever.

Come back and talk to us in a few months, when you've come down from your euphoria over getting a 1 inch thick piece of beauty.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jenseike View Post

This just show how much you know about your plasmas.. I dont even think that you have seen a G10 with a statement like thiat. The blacks on a g10 is very black and is only been blacker by the kuro in the flatscreen world.. The G10 is actually having the same panel as the V10 and give the same blacks as it also when you calibrate it.. And that is exelent blacks. Not far behind the kuro. G10 has its flaws but in the black department it is very good.. And if this set is just behind it, that is tird best in the flatscreen world... Second, I think not only you but others and jumping a litle to conclution here. Try read between the lines in this revirew. Mr Chad thinks that this is a great sets I am reading and that is not bad coming fron a calibrator as him.. Also when he is comparing to the kuro all the time, and even beets the kuro in some section that say very much about the set... I think that this set got an exelent review here, you do in fact need a pitch black room top see that the kuro beets it in black.. It beets the kuro in other detartments and even getting compared to a kuro in a review is just great.. Not many panels have benn that in any review and that just tels me we are talking about a great set... And again, this has better PQ than ANY lcd ever... Those of you like this guy documaker should try to have a look at it before you make any conclution.. In mine eyes (not becose I own a set my self, but because I have owned many high-end sets both lcd and plasmas and also the kuro) this is one of the best ever.. So are the 550!! Samsung have done a very good job in the 09 plasma I think and just because it does not beet the kuro in the black department that does not say that it is a bad set at all.. No panels beet the kuro. not yet.

Even if the G10 is mid range in price and looks it is the same panel/pq and blacks as the V10 and z1... The only difference is the controls.. And this is exelent blacks I can asure you...

EDIT: I just want to correct my selfe a litle.. Actually, most sets do get compared to the kurp - but not many have found so good that the tester have bother to mention them in the comparison..

Jens
post #133 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhythmic View Post

I wonder if the B650 will strike a good balance between light output and color punch?.

That's interesting that he's saying the B550 would be better in bright rooms due to the added light output. I would have thought it would be the opposite with the better anti-glare coating on the B850/860...?

Aside from that, I guess the results are about what we expected. A great TV with blacks that are not quite the best, but outstanding color and overall PQ.

Absolutly, and up there amongst the tre top flatpanels today!!!

Jens
post #134 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by bertzz99 View Post

To say that the Samsungs are not quite there yet on the blacks is a bit unfair in the context of Chad's comment "it's hard to tell". In addition, the "mid-range" G10 by all accounts will not be a lot different to the G15, V10 and probably also Z1 in terms of overall PQ, black levels and colour accuracy. In many posts and reviews the benefits of these "higher" models is not in the PQ area or even in better controls over color and picture settings but rather gimmicks! In short, these Samsungs are a very big threat to the Panny's in as much as they are 1" thick at a much better price, provide better colour accuracy, crisper images, more controls and very close black levels.

Well for a 50 inch, if $1000 is low end, and $2000-2200 is high end, it sounds like a G10 for around $1500-1600 is mid-range! It's about 30% cheaper than the 850, and yet still delivers deeper blacks. You say the Samsung has "very close" black levels. Perhaps. But we will need to see some hard numbers to back that up. I'm growing ever more suspicious of just how close Samsung got. Clearly not close enough to justify the hype I was told about the blacks on their high-end Plasmas. And if the Sammy has to crush the black level detail to even get to the point of "not quite as deep blacks" as the cheaper G10, then well, you can draw your own conclusion at this point.
post #135 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenseike View Post

That is 100% correct and this have been made by samsung to keep the blacks better during daytime conditions.. Thy actually have a name on it "real black filter"

Which to me means the 850/860 looks better than any other plasma out there during the day, where all other plasmas reveal their greenish grey screens. I'd say that's a fair trade for the not-quite-as-dark-as-a-G10 blacks in dark room conditions.
post #136 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Jens, I know that in another thread you told me that you understand me well, even though English is not your native language, but I am beginning to wonder. Where did I ever say or imply that the G10 did not have impressive black levels? You will not find it. Still it has got a ways to go before it can approach 9G Kuro levels. So your "not far behind a Kuro" may be true for an 8G Kuro, but is simply not the case when comparing to a 9G Kuro. Your bias or ignorance is also on display here when you say the Samsung 860 is "third best" in the flat panel world. Total nonsense! Have you even taken delivery of your 855 yet? Why should we take your word for it? You are obviously just giddy that you have an 855 on the way, and have no sense of objectivity right now. Perhaps in a couple months when the euphoria subsides...

As for your convoluted and contorted logic, asserting that the Samsung is "third best" in blacks in the flatscreen world, (not even flat panel, but flat screen) I just have to laugh at your rationale. You are basing this faulty rationale all upon one off-hand comment in a review by Chad B., who said the 860 was "not quite as deep" as a G10.

**NEWS FLASH**

This same Chad B. did a comparison of the Luxia LED to the Panny G10, (one would assume using the same equipment), and he said the Luxia had slightly deeper blacks than the G10, albeit it wasn't by much, but it was noticeable in a dark room.

So if everyone can agree that the 9G Kuros are darkest, and the 8G Kuros are next, and the Luxia is slightly ahead or even with the G10, and the Samsung is "not quite as deep" as the G10, then how on earth do you figure the Samsung to be in third place, or even fourth place for that matter? When the dust finally settles by the end of 2009 it probably won't even be in in the top five!

Every time I try to damper the rampant enthusiasm of these new or potentially-new Samsung PDP owners with a small dose of objectivity, they call me an LED or LCD fanboy.

One doesn't have to be an LED fanboy to point out the facts. The facts are that the Luxia LED's deliver deeper blacks than the Sammy plasmas. Just accept it. Of course the fanboys only retort to the facts is that the LED's/LCD's couldn't possibly have the shadow detail that you will get with the PDP, in MUST be crushed to even come close to competing with a plaz.

Well let me tell you, you folks better start taking some better shots then, because all the pics I've seen so far of these new Samsung plasmas, the blacks are crushed to oblivion, including the two pics on the first page or two of this thread!

Even after calibration, Chad confessed, "dark images looked a little too dark, and shadow detail was a little hard to see."

I have absolutely no problem with people liking Samsung plasmas and calling them beautiful displays and a great bang for you buck, etc. Just don't make foolish assertions by saying they are the third blackest flatscreens on the planet. You only destroy your own credibility by being so biased.

One other thing. I have read three (very brief) reviews by Chad B so far. I value his opinion and am grateful that he takes the time to share his professional impressions. But the truth is, he said great things about the G10 and the Luxia as well, so you shouldn't take positive comments in his review of the Sammy to mean that he thinks it is the best display out there. Chad actually said that for his own personal circumstances, he preferred the Luxia over the G10, and acknowledged that others with a different set of circumstances might arrive at a different conclusion.

"Also when he is comparing to the kuro all the time, and even beets the kuro in some section that say very much about the set... "

The Kuros are excellent displays, but no one ever claimed (at least I hope not) that they are perfect. Different displays may be able to beat the Kuro in this or that particular detail, but what of it? Many people (including myself) have recognized that the Kuro is not always the display with the least noise and sharpest picture. I already stated that some of Samsung's LED's put out out a sharper more detailed pic. From this review, it looks as if the high-end Plasmas from Samsung may as well. This does not surprise me one bit. We already know the Samsung's can do accurate colors and put out a sharper picture. We were all waiting with baited breath to see about what Samsung is NOT known for...the deep blacks! There's always next year!

"And again, this has better PQ than ANY lcd ever... "

According to whom? You are entitled to your opinion. You may even be right. But you do not come across as objective.

"In mine eyes (not becose I own a set my self, but because I have owned many high-end sets both lcd and plasmas and also the kuro) this is one of the best ever.. So are the 550!!"

Ahem! I've seen the 550, and of course it is not anywhere close to being the best ever. You are entitled to your opinion of course. But everyone can see you are not objective in the least. You have not even owned the set long enough to make such a confident assertion. Have you even taken delivery and unboxed yours yet? Have you even broken it in yet? Yet you are already acting like a high school cheerleader calling it the best ever.

Come back and talk to us in a few months, when you've come down from your euphoria over getting a 1 inch thick piece of beauty.

Man... You write much bs.. again I do not read the whole thing.. Just want to correct you on a few points just from the first paragraph.. This is my tird year with plasma, I had both kuros and a samsung before this. I have recived my B855 and I also have had 3 lcd's (and now also the Luxia) together with the plasma (they are in the bedroom).. So belive it or not.. I really have a preference for my statements.. What are yours?

And one more thing.. Chad is not the only calibrator that are giving mesaurments on tv's.. F ex cnet did say that that the G10 was even blacker than the Luxia B7000 in the B7000 Luxia review.. And one more thing.. It not just a discussion on how black The Luxia can go very very black, but if you do you loos details and that is where this plasma and the G10 beets it.. Because the Luxia looses details in the black you need to calibrate it to a level you dont get crushed black.. At that same level you will find both the G10 and also this panel darker.. I know, I have them both!!!.. (B855 and B8050)

Regarding my statement about best PQ ever... It is acording to me (my selfe). Most of what I say are my own opinion.. That is where you and I differs.. I am talking of mine own opinions and you are talking out of other opinoins and that is not really any interesting to read.. You seem to me to read a lot of reviews and come here to make statements of that. I cant see I have seen anything about you have any experiences from any of these panels we are talking about and that just makes you very un-interesting person to me 8and I am sure others to). If I want to have a reviewers opinion I read the review and not your opinion of that review..

I give my opinion of what I think are the best plasma panels and plasma against lcd PQ based on what I have seen with my own eyes in my own living enviroment (wich I think would count for much since this is where most people have their tv sets). I do not mesaurments with pro equipment but I do know very well how to calibrate a tv to show it best. I also know the tv sets that I have my selfe very very well so that I can go on this forums and give a opinion that are honest and based on what I see. Today I have the 50B855 and a 46B8050 (B8000), befoore this I had the kuro 9G together with the A866, Before this I had the A766 plasma with the A656 lcd and before this the kuro 8G... Can you please let me know what you are basing your experiences of? I really like to know.. I also dont buy a tv based on the ticknes, but the PQ. Yes, I have calibrated my 855 and also my 8050 and as far as PQ goes they have their strong and weknesses.. First, for film - hands down the 855 (HD that is) - for SD the 8050 are better upscaling, but when I use the uscaling in my RXV3900 the b855 is also better here. The 8050 is better for normal tv viewing like the news and other shows I think, and I also uses this for games and watching sports.. Even though the B855 is better also for watching sports because of the motion handling wich are outstanding on this set.. The luxia's motion handling (even this 240Hz) ... I can go on and on, but in MINE experience form mine own sets in mine own livingroom/bedroom the plasma has a better PQ and also better blacks, details in black and shadow. It has better motion and it has a similar crisp picture as the luxia.. It does not have any flashlighting or cloudiness as the luxia has (althought mine have very litle of both, they are there).

I am waiting to hear your experiences. I really like to know what you are basing your statements of other than reviews and what you have seen in a BB store or something...

Jens
post #137 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by bertzz99 View Post

Yes but the V10 is not 1" thick! The 1" Z1 is going to have a separate box (tuner) and will be a lot more expensive than than Sammy 850.

Neither is the Sammy! It's 1.2 inches thick, and the V10 is not exactly deep, at only 2 inches thick. Many people will take a little bit thicker for better blacks. And the colors on the higher-end V10 should be nice like the Samsung as well.

P.S. Panasonic has already shown off a plasma that is only 1/3 of an inch thick! So not long from now even the 1 inch thick plasmas will be out of style! Will anyone want a Kuro then in a few years, when they can have a 1/3 of an inch thick plasma?
post #138 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Yes, you're right, and I forgot just how good the G10 was in that regard! The 3892 ANSI of the G10 is real, and is a truly great result. The Sammys do beat the 800u, though, which measures 551 ANSI.
I haven't done a contrast measurement of a Kuro yet, because the meter I use for contrast measurements would be tricky to mount or hold in place without either a) leaving a larger gap for bordering light to contaminate the readings or b) risk damaging the Kuro's extra delicate surface.

Thanks Chad. If you ever get your hands on a 65V10 I'd love to see what results you get.
post #139 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

Which to me means the 850/860 looks better than any other plasma out there during the day, where all other plasmas reveal their greenish grey screens. I'd say that's a fair trade for the not-quite-as-dark-as-a-G10 blacks in dark room conditions.

Well the 850 I saw at Best Buy certainly did not look washed out by any means, but the B750 LCD right next door on the endcap looked darker. The Luxia is a bit darker than the B750, (I did see those next to each other), so you have an LED-LCD and a CCFL LCD which still look darker than the 850 in very bright conditions. I bet the Luxia and the B750 LCD can even give the 850/860 a run for its money with regards to black levels in moderate lighting and in a dark room too. That doesn't mean I prefer those displays--for they have other issues, but it does show you that Samsung has much more work to do in the blacks area on their plasmas.
post #140 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenseike View Post

And one more thing.. Chad is not the only calibrator that are giving mesaurments on tv's.. F ex cnet did say that that the G10 was even blacker than the Luxia B7000 in the B7000 Luxia review..

I don't have a problem with this. Chad said they were pretty close. He gave the edge to the Luxia, the other reviewer to the G10. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the fellow at Cnet crippled the ability of the Luxia to deliver deeper blacks by disabling the auto-dimming feature and calibrating in game mode! Apparently he had yet to learn the trick of defeating the auto-dimming in the service menu. So it does not surprise me that he gave the edge to the G10 with auto-dimming defeated on the Luxia.

The point is, they are BOTH darker than the Sammy, which is the point I am trying to get across.


Quote:


And one more thing.. It not just a discussion on how black The Luxia can go very very black, but if you do you loos details and that is where this plasma and the G10 beets it.. Because the Luxia looses details in the black you need to calibrate it to a level you dont get crushed black.. At that same level you will find both the G10 and also this panel darker.. I know, I have them both!!!.. (B855 and B8050)

Well then prove it for us. Prove to us that a calibrated 850/860 is darker with better details than the Luxia. Until you provide some proof I will suspend my judgement.

Quote:


You seem to me to read a lot of reviews and come here to make statements of that. I cant see I have seen anything about you have any experiences from any of these panels we are talking about and that just makes you very un-interesting person to me 8and I am sure others to). If I want to have a reviewers opinion I read the review and not your opinion of that review..

Well since you seem to brag about all the top of the line panels that you own, start snapping pictures and start showing us settings/calibration reports! Put 'em side by side in a dark room and start clicking pix. Use a tripod!

Because I am simply not going to take your word for it.
post #141 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Well the 850 I saw at Best Buy certainly did not look washed out by any means, but the B750 LCD right next door on the endcap looked darker. The Luxia is a bit darker than the B750, (I did see those next to each other), so you have an LED-LCD and a CCFL LCD which still look darker than the 850 in very bright conditions. I bet the Luxia and the B750 LCD can even give the 850/860 a run for its money with regards to black levels in moderate lighting and in a dark room too. That doesn't mean I prefer those displays--for they have other issues, but it does show you that Samsung has much more work to do in the blacks area on their plasmas.

Wow.. You have seen them on a BB flor.. That counts for something I guess, but it does not really tell the story correct.!! You did of course calibrate them also so that your statement have any bases..?
post #142 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemmy999 View Post

Everyone keeps saying the Samsungs are at a better price than the Panny's, but I just don't see it. Best price I have seen on a 50" B850 is $1900 and the B860 is a few hundred more than that. The 50" V10 was $1999 at the one place that had it for a few days and will likely be about the same price ast the B850 when more stores obtain it.

The B550/B560 can compete with the G10 - which is a considerably more expensive screen - PQ-wise
And Panny's thin plasma(s) will be a lot more expensive then the V10, which could be stacked up against the again less expensive B650.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Jens, I know that in another thread you told me that you understand me well, even though English is not your native language, but I am beginning to wonder. Where did I ever say or imply that the G10 did not have impressive black levels? You will not find it. Still it has got a ways to go before it can approach 9G Kuro levels. So your "not far behind a Kuro" may be true for an 8G Kuro, but is simply not the case when comparing to a 9G Kuro. Your bias or ignorance is also on display here [....etc, etc... continuing rant for very very long time...]

Dude... what are you trying to prove with these rants..? Really... why do you feel the absolute need to correct every single little detail about everyones opinion that you think is biased and chew them out in the mean time?
It's not only unnecessary and useless, but quite irritating aswell, and the only thing it generally does is making you look like an annoying know it all that thinks his opinion is the only one that actually matters...

So the guy is a little enthousiastic about the B850... just give it a rest. We all read the review, plus we are in the B850 owners thread. I think it's natural for most owners to be a little enthousiastic about the thing they just bought after carefull consideration.

I think your posts usually add some nice insights, but do us all a favor and stop ranting, stop nitpicking about every single detail in posts you don't fully agree with and stop repeating yourself over and over and over... We already know and understand your opinion on blacks thouroughly, you made absolute sure of that
post #143 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

I don't have a problem with this. Chad said they were pretty close. He gave the edge to the Luxia, the other reviewer to the G10. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the fellow at Cnet crippled the ability of the Luxia to deliver deeper blacks by disabling the auto-dimming feature and calibrating in game mode! Apparently he had yet to learn the trick of defeating the auto-dimming in the service menu. So it does not surprise me that he gave the edge to the G10 with auto-dimming defeated on the Luxia.

The point is, they are BOTH darker than the Sammy, which is the point I am trying to get across.




Well then prove it for us. Prove to us that a calibrated 850/860 is darker with better details than the Luxia. Until you provide some proof I will suspend my judgement.



Well since you seem to brag about all the top of the line panels that you own, start snapping pictures and start showing us settings/calibration reports! Put 'em side by side in a dark room and start clicking pix. Use a tripod!

Because I am simply not going to take your word for it.

Well, it was not cnet that calibrated in game mode but avs forum. i am not braging. I am telling you what I am basing my experiences from since I think that counts for something

Why should I prove anything to you.. I am telling MY opinion and if you dont like it, that is just fine
But dont come here and call me a lier, and start telling me that I dont know what i am talking about. You dont know me, you dont know what my experiences are and you are really not interesting to me anymore. I have seen you have been talking down on others also in other treads. So, maybe you should start look at your selfe a litle and see why that is!!
post #144 of 3219
thanks for a great review Chad B
black level was the decisive

I have canceled my 855 and have ordered a pioneer 500M.
World best monitor.
post #145 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

I don't have a problem with this. Chad said they were pretty close. He gave the edge to the Luxia, the other reviewer to the G10. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the fellow at Cnet crippled the ability of the Luxia to deliver deeper blacks by disabling the auto-dimming feature and calibrating in game mode! Apparently he had yet to learn the trick of defeating the auto-dimming in the service menu. So it does not surprise me that he gave the edge to the G10 with auto-dimming defeated on the Luxia.

The panel-wide auto-dimming "feature" is the first thing I'd kill on those Luxia's. I think Cnet (and HDTVtest) is absolutely right in doing so.
It changes brightness, changes gamma and crushes blacks on the whole screen. Local auto-dimming is a lot more subtle then what the luxia's do and is far preferable above the 'whole screen' auto-dimming thing.

And when you defeat the 'whole screen' auto-dimming to calibrate and get consistant output out of the screen it does no better in the black department then the B650 LCD.

Besides that, users are usually not supposed to use the service menu (by far most don't even know about it), and with the normal user menu the only way to turn off auto dimming is by enabling game-mode. Blame Samsung for that decision, not the reviewer.

Quote:


The point is, they are BOTH darker than the Sammy, which is the point I am trying to get across.

Right. As long as it's "black" you appearantly don't care what you lose to get there.
Now, if you prefer total black that much, why don't you buy yourself some black paint, make a rectangle with it on the wall where your TV used to be and go stare at those total absolute indescerning blacks for the rest of your life... it's a whole lot cheaper than those 'black' delivering panels and on top of that costs a lot less time then this senseless discussion too

Quote:


Prove to us that a calibrated 850/860 is darker with better details than the Luxia.

Unless you want to debate a B650 LCD being darker with better details then a B850 plasma, we could pretty easily state that is the case.
Because a luxia calibrated for consistent output will do no better with blacks then a calibrated B650 LCD.
If you want to compare PQ-wise to LCD at least compare with something that gives consistent output, like the B750 or the A950.

And if we can now close this rather pointless debate, that's totally off-topic in this thread, my guess is most readers here would be a lot happyer... because I expect most of them aren't even really considering an LCD panel because of the other drawbacks you just so beautifully mentioned before.
And in that regard - when not considering LCD a serious option for some reason - the Sammy B series plasmas indeed are 3rd, behind the G10 in blacklevels, because they appear to do better than last years top Pannys.
post #146 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcardman View Post

thanks for a great review Chad B
black level was the decisive

I have canceled my 855 and have ordered a pioneer 500M.
World best monitor.

Man... did you really cansel your order just because of this review? Although I know the pioneer is top noch, I would atleast see it first..
post #147 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenseike View Post

Man... did you really cansel your order just because of this review? Although I know the pioneer is top noch, I would atleast see it first..

I have seen 500M(600M my cousin) and g10, but if black is slightly below g10 it makes my choice easy.I will not buy a v10, the first says it makes noise. And i think the overall picture is better on 855, then pan v10.
post #148 of 3219
Yeah, ok Andy. I have been overly polemical. I will mellow out and leave the Sammy owners to enjoy their beautiful TV's, even though some people are still talking nonsense.

One last parting word before I exit. I don't think some of your statements are entirely on the mark either. You say that the Sammy is third in blacks, after Pioneer and Panny G10.

With Pioneer, Vizio, and Hitachi exiting the plasma biz, it won't be long before the field is so small that third in blacks will be last place! I'm not even convinced Samsung is in the bronze medal postion, out of such a small field.

I think even Hitachi might have better blacks, and I have not had a chance to compare the high-end LG models yet, but on the low-end, I saw the entry level LG next to the B450, and the LG was just a tad darker, even after I adjusted the settings on the Sammy.

So it's quite possible when all the dust has settled in 2009 that Samsung will be out of medal contention even in a very small field--when it comes to blacks. It's simply too early to tell yet, as we have to wait until all the products are rolled out and the definitive numbers roll-in.

I don't doubt that Samsung has excellent performance in other areas, and should be championed for the things they do well.

P.S. If you want to believe a Luxia is no better than a B650 LCD in blacks that is fine with me. I don't believe the Samsung plasmas are much if at all better than a B650 LCD in blacks anyhow! I admit that there exists a possibility that I may have to alter this stance when the hard numbers on the 850/860 come out, but let's just wait and see when all the numbers get posted!
post #149 of 3219
Chad,

Thank you for the review. Unlike xcardman your review solidified my choice for the Samsung 58B860. Indeed, the black level may not yet be at the same level of the Panny's, Kuro's and Luxia's, but the rest is obvious on par if not better.

Describing the Samsung as having a cleaner picture with more accurate and natural colours, totaly made my day :-)

I'll buy mine mid july to replace my three year old 50" LG plasma, and will return then to write my own first review. Hopefully by then this thread will have more hands-on experiences from actual owners and future owners, and non of the (unless ?) debates about blacks and comparisions between LCD/LED/Plasma (hint hint)...
post #150 of 3219
DocuMaker,

You seem to put edge illuminated LED LCD’s (like the Luxia) in the same class as locally dimmed LED back lit LCD’s, they are not the same at all. The LED edge lit LCD’s are no better then the cold cathode lamp lit models. The only time you get good blacks on one in a dim or dark environment is on a totally black screen when the LED back lighting turns completely off. When displaying an image the edge lit models have poor blacks, definitely worse then the 2008 Samsung Plasmas, and just like any other regular LCD.
This is obvious when you enclose a small area of the screen with your hands and look at the black level on a black bar while video is playing, the edge lit LCD’s just don’t cut it, and there is no technical reason why they would out perform a normal LCD either.

No matter what the back light system or how dark the blacks, LCD’s have a particular look which you either like or you don’t. Personally I find the bright, oversharp, cartoon color look of LCD’s farcically unrealistic and very digital looking, I just don’t find them attractive no matter how good the blacks may get.
I don’t own a Plasma or LCD and my main display is a modified 70” Sony SXRD, for which there is no replacement available at this time, so I am no fan boy of either technology.
I am looking for a panel for a new sun room, during the winter months the sun will shine directly into the room all day making it very bright, however there is no way I will consider an LCD for this location as I just don’t like the picture they present. If the TV needs to be viewed during the day the curtains next to it can be drawn and that’s the end of it. I am not going to put up with an inferior image for 90% of viewing just to get a display bright enough to view in a sun drenched room.

I went out to buy a Panasonic due the their good blacks and overall quality, however when I saw how poorly they handle even modest amounts of ambient light due to their lack of screen filtering I was put off and am now looking at a Samsung B650. even the A650’s look better then any of the Panasonics in a non dark environment.
The Pioneer Kuro is double the price of the Samsung here and since the set will never be viewed in the dark and is only a secondary TV for general family viewing the extra price is not warranted. I have not seen the new Samsungs yet but if the B650 is better then the A650 I recon I’ll buy one.
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