or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Plasma Flat Panel Displays › Samsung PNXXB850 & PNXXB860 Owner's Discussion Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Samsung PNXXB850 & PNXXB860 Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 8

post #211 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbmannc View Post

The ultra filterbright plus over the filterbright of the 5 series has more of an effect on perceived contrast in rooms with ambient light than it does with glare. If you see both sets turned off it is obvious the 8 series has a much darker screen. I don't think this is something that you can effectively measure with equipment, though side by side the 8 series has better picture quality.

I agree. Even the Ultra Filterbright of the 6 series looked great to my eyes. I couldn't tell much of a difference between the filter on the 6 and 8 series but I definitely could tell a difference between the 5 and 6-8. With any light in the room the 6 and 8 series would hold its blacks while the 5 would washout like the Panny plasmas do. I've been debating between Panny and Samsung but since I do watch most tv with some light in the room, even if it's just a very dim lamp I'm leaning towards the 6 series. I don't see paying extra for the 8 series for the thinness when I can't see a difference in picture quality. The 6 series is still only 2.9" thick which is still impressive and in line with G10 pricing.
post #212 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

I don't see paying extra for the 8 series for the thinness when I can't see a difference in picture quality. The 6 series is still only 2.9" thick which is still impressive and in line with G10 pricing.

I agree...but I can't stand the red TOC! The chrome TOC on the 8 series looks really nice.
post #213 of 3219
Chad, are you going to post the minimum luminance fL number on the 2009 Samsungs? All this talk about black level and we still don't have the measurement. Thanks.
post #214 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by delta_23 View Post

I agree...but I can't stand the red TOC! The chrome TOC on the 8 series looks really nice.

I like the design of the 8 series better too, but I still like the Samsung design over Panasonics even with its red tint. Plus the Samsung has the features I need that the G10 does not.. usable 24p, variable audio out, darker filter.

There is a $500 difference between the 6 and 8 series which is not worth it IMO and the 850 doesn't even have Cinema Smooth which the 6 has.
post #215 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

There is a $500 difference between the 6 and 8 series which is not worth it IMO and the 850 doesn't even have Cinema Smooth which the 6 has.

And a ~$600 difference between the 650 and 860 (with CS). Yeah, mostly you are paying for the form factor. But I tell you, this 850 just screams "MOUNT ME!" If you plan on wall mounting, I think the 500-600 would be worth it. If putting on a TV stand, yeah the 650 is a great choice too.
post #216 of 3219
I've always felt like the TOC is blown way out of proportion. 90-95% of the time you can't even see the red. I certainly wouldn't purchase a TV based on it. It is barely noticeable, and I think the B650 only has the TOC on the bottom and the front of the base as opposed to the A650 which has it top and bottom, but not on the base.
post #217 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

Chad, are you going to post the minimum luminance fL number on the 2009 Samsungs? All this talk about black level and we still don't have the measurement. Thanks.

We have the measurment since Chads review.

45,5 : 2481 = 0,0183 fL (Black Level)
post #218 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior668 View Post

We have the measurment since Chads review.

45,5 : 2481 = 0,0183 fL (Black Level)

anyone know how that compares to last years A650 model?
post #219 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtiffy View Post

anyone know how that compares to last years A650 model?

A550: 0,027 fL (hometheatermag.com)
post #220 of 3219
I bought the 63" 63b590 and even though I haven't had a lot of time at home to adjust things or try settings, I'm a little dissappointed at first. Color, contrast, and depth is really great. Detail (definition on HD source) is very good, I use HDMI connections. However, I guess because it is a 63 inch panel, its grainy (PIXELS) or little blurry, not sure how to explain it since definition is very good. I sit 13 feet away and it looks good enough, but I can still pick up plenty of blur with my eyes, almost like motion jitter or blur in light colors (especially when the camera zooms into something, like an item on a table). At 6-8 feet away, I am not happy at all with a HD source, and Blue Ray alike. Even though I don't plan on being that close, like I said, my seating is 13 ft, but I recall looking at a lot of Samsungs 55,58" panels (plasma, lcd, led) from 3 feet away and being blown away by no pixelation with HD or blue ray source (almost perfect pictures).

Everything is set on factory out of box defaults, I haven't had a chance to mess with the settings, I'm not sure what break in means, the manual doesn't say anything about it, but it is discussed in this forum a lot and sounds crucial? What is the zoom during break-in, break-in-dvd, what to do and not to do for during break-in, how many hours?

Anyhow, I'm sure a lot of you would suggest me adusting some settings before I decide, and I am sure I will. Again, the definition is their, glossy chromes, peoples eyes, and water scenes, but overall, there is to much blurr. Even though, I'm not sure why most people are not for LCD or LED, my reason was motion jitter, which I personally pick up very easily, I am thinking of returning this set and going with the 55 8000 series LED. I was considering the 58B860, but I don't like the trim on the panel at all, it looks like cheap chrome to me. So, thats why I may go with the biggest LED (55"). To me there was no question that the LED was a crystal clear picture. Any opinions, I also don't like the panel on the 55 LCD, sorry, I'm picky that way and want the TV to look good when it off, and don't like to much shape or glitter on the outside design.
post #221 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior668 View Post

We have the measurment since Chads review.

45,5 : 2481 = 0,0183 fL (Black Level)

Not bad. That's pretty close to last year's Panasonic line that many people praised for black level. But the Samsung will look much darker during the daytime because of the darker AR filter. A huge plus IMO.
post #222 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post

Not bad. That's pretty close to last year's Panasonic line that many people praised for black level. But the Samsung will look much darker during the daytime because of the darker AR filter. A huge plus IMO.

That is exactly what I think!
post #223 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean The Machine View Post

That is exactly what I think!

Yup. And as far as contrast goes, Chad measured the 800u panasonic at around 2300:1 on/off and 550:1 ANSI. The 860 is about the same on/off but has a higher ANSI at about 800:1.
post #224 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior668 View Post

We have the measurment since Chads review.

45,5 : 2481 = 0,0183 fL (Black Level)

Not bad. It's about 2x higher than 2009 Panasonics but lower than last years Samsungs. Most of the reviews I've seen of the 2008 Panasonics had black level at around .0014 fL.
post #225 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneupav View Post

I bought the 63" 63b590 and even though I haven't had a lot of time at home to adjust things or try settings, I'm a little dissappointed at first. Color, contrast, and depth is really great. Detail (definition on HD source) is very good, I use HDMI connections. However, I guess because it is a 63 inch panel, its grainy (PIXELS) or little blurry, not sure how to explain it since definition is very good. I sit 13 feet away and it looks good enough, but I can still pick up plenty of blur with my eyes, almost like motion jitter or blur in light colors (especially when the camera zooms into something, like an item on a table). At 6-8 feet away, I am not happy at all with a HD source, and Blue Ray alike. Even though I don't plan on being that close, like I said, my seating is 13 ft, but I recall looking at a lot of Samsungs 55,58" panels (plasma, lcd, led) from 3 feet away and being blown away by no pixelation with HD or blue ray source (almost perfect pictures).

Everything is set on factory out of box defaults, I haven't had a chance to mess with the settings, I'm not sure what break in means, the manual doesn't say anything about it, but it is discussed in this forum a lot and sounds crucial? What is the zoom during break-in, break-in-dvd, what to do and not to do for during break-in, how many hours?

Anyhow, I'm sure a lot of you would suggest me adusting some settings before I decide, and I am sure I will. Again, the definition is their, glossy chromes, peoples eyes, and water scenes, but overall, there is to much blurr. Even though, I'm not sure why most people are not for LCD or LED, my reason was motion jitter, which I personally pick up very easily, I am thinking of returning this set and going with the 55 8000 series LED. I was considering the 58B860, but I don't like the trim on the panel at all, it looks like cheap chrome to me. So, thats why I may go with the biggest LED (55"). To me there was no question that the LED was a crystal clear picture. Any opinions, I also don't like the panel on the 55 LCD, sorry, I'm picky that way and want the TV to look good when it off, and don't like to much shape or glitter on the outside design.


the border on the 8000 series edge lit is virtually identical the the 850/860 plasma ... so, you're gonna think that one looks cheap as well
post #226 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by delta_23 View Post

I agree...but I can't stand the red TOC! The chrome TOC on the 8 series looks really nice.

I have the 58B650 with the red TOC. It is not an obvious red and I believe looks very nice. Actually looks pretty cool when the sun hits the edge just right.
post #227 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomnan24 View Post

I have the 58B650 with the red TOC. It is not an obvious red and I believe looks very nice. Actually looks pretty cool when the sun hits the edge just right.

Sun and plasma's don't mix.
post #228 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior668 View Post

We have the measurment since Chads review.

45,5 : 2481 = 0,0183 fL (Black Level)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior668 View Post

A550: 0,027 fL (hometheatermag.com)

I'm confused. What's with the commas instead of decimals? My 2007 LCD is supposed to have a black level measurement of 0.012 ft Lamberts, and the G10 is supposed to be .008 ft Lamberts.
post #229 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

I'm confused. What's with the commas instead of decimals? My 2007 LCD is supposed to have a black level measurement of 0.012 ft Lamberts, and the G10 is supposed to be .008 ft Lamberts.

Commas are commonly used as decimals outside the US.
post #230 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus_CA View Post

Commas are commonly used as decimals outside the US.

So Samsung's 2009 plasmas don't have better blacks than my 2007 LCD? That can't be right.
post #231 of 3219
Thanks for your terrific review, Chad.

Given the contrast numbers, I would think that the Samsung B550 has much better contrast than last year's Panny PZ800.

Does this mean, in reality, that the Samsung has better blacks than the PZ800? I'm not really sure how to interpret those numbers, and especially the difference between the modified ANSI and the regular number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

This is a continuation of the review I started on the 63B550, which can be found here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16465584
This time I will review the new super slim B860 plasma, see how it compares to the B550, and provide measurements of the B860 and contrast ratio results for both. I had the opportunity to perform a full ISF calibration on both these new plasmas and watch some demo material on both calibrated sets.
I decided to take some out of the box measurements of the B860 before any changes were made. Attached are the results for standard, eco, and movie modes. Standard was pretty bad; anything watched in uncalibrated standard mode is not going to be close to accurate. It wasn't even blazingly bright at 42 fL. Movie mode was quite accurate; the gamma and grayscale were not too far off target, and the color primary points were just a little narrow. It put out 38.5 fL with a 100% white window, which is adequate but a little on the low side for most living rooms. Overall movie mode looked very good for a set prior to calibration, but it did look a little dull to me.
I started the calibration of the B860 and checked out the service menu. It was disappointingly sparse, just as it was on the B550. No secret goodies here. I decided to just do the calibration in the user menu.
Unlike the B550, the B860 has full CMS adjustments; it's possible get amazing color accuracy from this set. Unlike the wannabe CMS adjustments in some other TV brands, it looks like Samsung did a great job implementing this.
The grayscale and gamma both improved, though the set was still a little too dark and a little too blue with very dark images. These are very minor criticisms, though; the gamma and grayscale performance were both very, very good.
Light output improved to 45.5 fL, which added more punch to the picture.
Overall, I was very happy with how the B860 calibrated. Measurements are attached. Curiously, though, I found that I was able to coax slightly more light output from the B550 than the B860. I could not take the contrast (picture) control as high on the B860 without compromising performance. The advantage here goes to the B550, because it's slightly higher light output will make it suitable for brighter living rooms. It's a small difference, though, only equivalent to 3-4 clicks of the contrast control. However, the B860 had better measuring colors than the B550 due to it's more thorough picture controls. Would the differences be enough to be visible?
Next I measured the contrast ratio of both sets. I used a meter that is very accurate at low light (Milori Trichromat-1) and had a black blanket draped over the set while the measurement was taken. The full on/off contrast ratio (after calibration with a small window for 100% white), which gives an indication of how black the set can go in a fade-to-black scene in a movie or show, was 2481 on the B860 and 2546 on the B550. The modified ANSI measurement, which gives a better idea of real world contrast, was 883 on the B860 and 1067 on the B550. The higher numbers for the B550 are due mainly to it's higher light output.
I have measured the contrast ratios for the Panasonic 800u, Panasonic G10, and Samsung B7100 LED backlit LCD in prior reviews. I will be measuring a 9g Pioneer Kuro (the contrast King of plasmas) soon and will add it's numbers as soon as I can.
After calibration, I looked at the same program material on both sets one right after the other. I looked for differences between the two Samsungs as well as how they compared to the Pioneer 9G Elite Kuro, going from memory of the 111FD I had done earlier that day and the dozens of 111FD's and 151FD's I've done in the last several months.
They were viewed in a living room with moderate light, though the light decreased as the evening wore on.
The first thing that struck me about the B860 was how rich the colors were. Faces didn't look sunburnt, but the colors were very vibrant. That color vibrancy and richness is what manufacturers are going for when they add red push, but here it was achieved accurately. The colors looked more vibrant than with the Pioneer Kuro's ISF modes.
It also looked very contrasty; dark images looked a little too dark, and shadow detail was a little hard to see. That was not the result of poor black level retention as I might suspect (it had no problem in that regard), so I believe it was due to the very slightly high gamma at the low end. It was not enough to make the image look bad; in fact, many people would prefer it. It's the opposite presentation of a Panasonic 800u, which in THX mode comes out of black faster and looks a bit washed out to some people because of it. The Pioneer Kuro ISF modes are in the middle (and most accurate) in this regard, and also have the most accurate measuring gamma.
Both the B550 and the B860 looked absolutely grain free and smooth, in a good way. Scenes that look noisy and grainy on many sets look cleaner and clearer on the Samsungs. The Pioneer Kuros have a noisier look to their color, and the Panasonic 800u and G10 seems to be in between the Kuro and the Samsungs in this regard.
Blacks looked very deep in this environment; from the measurements I know the blacks are not quite as deep as the G10 and Kuros, but in a typical living room it's hard to tell. In a dark theater room the Kuro would live up to it's stellar reputation, though, and I don't think it would be subtle.
I was able to see some minor differences between the B860 and B550, but they definately looked more similar than different. The slightly higher light output of the B550 was just barely visible. The color of the B550 was just a bit different, as expected; sometimes I felt yellows were pushed a bit more on the B550 and sometimes I thought flesh tones looked a bit more natural on the B860, but it was hard to tell.
Overall I feel that the B860 is an excellent display, with textbook measurements and a grain free picture that is rich in both in contrast and color. Since the Kuros have been discontinued, it will be up to Samsung and Panasonic to keep advancing the plasma state of the art.
post #232 of 3219
Recently had my 58b860 installed and immediately encountered a significant nuisance.
I'm still using an old audio receiver which only has analog input and doesn't have a remote. To my despair I discovered that the 860's audio output cannot be muted or volume controlled using the remote.

The audio is still available on the output when set to TV speaker, but the volume/mute control only effects the TV speakers, which is a poor substitute.

This just sucks. Makes me want to open up the back and disconnect the TV's speakers and wire in my own output jack.

I guess I'll have to upgrade my audio system sooner than later and either use a separate remote or spend more $ on a universal. Sigh.
post #233 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

I'm confused. What's with the commas instead of decimals?

I`m German. We write it the other way round. Example: One million: 1.000.000

Sry for writing in German.
post #234 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

So Samsung's 2009 plasmas don't have better blacks than my 2007 LCD? That can't be right.

Hi,

Going by the measurement given in the review and comparing it to some of this and last years models:

2009 Samsung B860 = 0.0183fL (0.08fL initially stated was a typo error on my part!)
2009 Neo-Panny's = 0.00875fL
2008 Panny PZ800 = 0.0116fL
2008 Other PX & PZ Pannys =0.0145fL
2009 Samsung B7000 = 0.0029fL - 0.0175fL
2009 Samsung B650 = 0.016fL
2009 Sony Z4500 = 0.0175fL
2009 Sony W5500 = 0.0145fL
2008 Sony W4500 = 0.0145fL
2008 Pioneer Kuro's = 0.0009fL
2007 Pioneer Kuro's = 0.00583fL - 0.00875fL

(Source: HDTVTest.co.uk)

Based on the measurement given and the random list of sets above, that puts Sammy's latest and greatest top end plasma last in terms of just calibrated black levels and by quite some margin.

I can't help thinking there must be something more to it than this - I read the Samsung flyer about some of the improvements they were implementing for "Some of the deepest blacks ever to grace a HDTV" (their words) on their new "Mega Contrast" panels and it sounded like they meant business but then Samsung are masters of marketing hype! (amongst others!)

"The proof of the pudding is in the eating" as we say in England and maybe this first taste of the B860 shows far from what one expected as far as just black levels are concerned and maybe other subsequent tests/reviews will shed more insight - "One Swallow does not make a Summer" is another fine English saying that now also comes to mind!


Bazzy!
post #235 of 3219
I thought that the B860 measured at 0.0183fL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzy View Post

Hi,

Going by the measurement given in the review and comparing it to some of this and last years models:

2009 Samsung B860 = 0.08fL
2009 Neo-Panny's = 0.00875fL
2008 Panny PZ800 = 0.0116fL
2008 Other PX & PZ Pannys =0.0145fL
2009 Samsung B7000 = 0.0029fL - 0.0175fL
2009 Samsung B650 = 0.016fL
2009 Sony Z4500 = 0.0175fL
2009 Sony W5500 = 0.0145fL
2008 Sony W4500 = 0.0145fL
2008 Pioneer Kuro's = 0.0009fL
2007 Pioneer Kuro's = 0.00583fL - 0.00875fL

(Source: HDTVTest.co.uk)
post #236 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzy View Post

Hi,

Going by the measurement given in the review and comparing it to some of this and last years models:

2009 Samsung B860 = 0.08fL
2009 Neo-Panny's = 0.00875fL
2008 Panny PZ800 = 0.0116fL
2008 Other PX & PZ Pannys =0.0145fL
2009 Samsung B7000 = 0.0029fL - 0.0175fL
2009 Samsung B650 = 0.016fL
2009 Sony Z4500 = 0.0175fL
2009 Sony W5500 = 0.0145fL
2008 Sony W4500 = 0.0145fL
2008 Pioneer Kuro's = 0.0009fL
2007 Pioneer Kuro's = 0.00583fL - 0.00875fL

(Source: HDTVTest.co.uk)

Ok, now I'm really confused. Based on those figures there are only two plasma series that have better blacks than the best LCDs, and the rest are actually worse. But the sweeping generalization has always been "plasmas have better blacks, period". So here I am in plasmaville considering replacing my LCD only to find out my two year old LCD has better blacks than a lot of todays plasmas. Color me thoroughly confused.

I'm not trying to start a plasma vs lcd debate here; I'm just genuinely confused and disappointed and hope someone can shed further light on the situation.
post #237 of 3219
According to those #'s above, the B650 (0.016fL) has better black level than the B860 (0.08fL)...? That's interesting.

But wait, should the B860 be at 0.018fL, not 0.08fL? That would still have the B650 slightly edging out it's big brother.

When you look at the numbers, damn those Kuros really are pretty impressive.
post #238 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhythmic View Post

But wait, should the B860 be at 0.018fL, not 0.08fL? That would still have the B650 slightly edging out it's big brother.

Yes, I think he meant .018 ft L. But even that seems poor given plasma's reputation.
post #239 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhythmic View Post

According to those #'s above, the B650 (0.016fL) has better black level than the B860 (0.08fL)...? That's interesting.

But wait, should the B860 be at 0.018fL, not 0.08fL? That would still have the B650 slightly edging out it's big brother.

When you look at the numbers, damn those Kuros really are pretty impressive.

The B860 is 0.018, not .08fL.

Honestly, the difference between .016 and .018 is extremely subtle and is probably due to natural panel to panel variance, as well as the difference among calibration equipment. The 2008 panasonic plasmas had similar set to set variance (measurements ranged from .008 all the way to .014), but you'd be hard pressed to see any difference between all of them in black levels. Why? Because unless you're comparing in a pitch black room, or extremely light controlled environment, minimum luminance is difficult to notice. With any ambient light in the room, the color of the screen itself will contribute much more to perceived depth of black. The blacker the screen, the blacker the blacks.

Just take the panny g10 and pioneer 4280. Both have very similar contrast measurements and minimum luminance. But unless you're in a pitch black room, the 4280 will crush the panasonic in perceived contrast because pioneer used a much darker AR coating on their kuro plasmas than panny does. The difference is not subtle at all in such an environment. I think many people who are buying these neopdp's thinking they will get KURO, unless they watch in a pitch black theater room all the time, are in for a rude awakening.

Since I do all of my viewing during the daytime, or at night with the lights on, the darker AR coating of the Samsung 860 is much more important to me than a few foot lamberts of light. I have a panasonic pz85 and where I have it set up, I can rarely discern the minimum luminance of the set on a blank input, unless the sun is set and I have no lights turned on, in which case it's easy to see the difference when the TV is off or on. But with light in the room, I can't see the screen "glow" when I turn on the TV, but I do notice the light gray/green AR coating on the screen that gives the entire image a washed out, hazy look. I can't tolerate that.
post #240 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

Yes, I think he meant .018 ft L. But even that seems poor given plasma's reputation.

Hi All,

Sincere Apologies - it was a typo error on my part - I will correct accordingly!

Bazzy!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Plasma Flat Panel Displays
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Plasma Flat Panel Displays › Samsung PNXXB850 & PNXXB860 Owner's Discussion Thread