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Samsung PNXXB850 & PNXXB860 Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 9

post #241 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhythmic View Post

According to those #'s above, the B650 (0.016fL) has better black level than the B860 (0.08fL)...? That's interesting.

But wait, should the B860 be at 0.018fL, not 0.08fL? That would still have the B650 slightly edging out it's big brother.

When you look at the numbers, damn those Kuros really are pretty impressive.


therefore I canceled my 860 and bought a pioneer kuro eu model 500M. Only approximately 250 euro more
have followed this thread long and was hoping it came about at piox508 blacklevel. I had probably too high demands. I almost view movies in the evening
post #242 of 3219
Has this thing officially shipped out yet? There are very few places I've seen that actually carry it. My girlfriend and I recently purchased a Samsung LN46A850. We liked the slim design over the newer slightly thicker models. But, because of some crazy LCD issues like clouding and viewing angle on top of the set being buggy beyond belief, we returned it. I never really considered plasma until I saw this model. Based on the specs and the seemingly solid performance of plasma, we're now thinking of getting this one.

One site I saw said it was shipping May 25th but some people seem to already be carrying it. Anybody know whats up?

Thanks
post #243 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso_Corsa View Post

Thanks for your terrific review, Chad.

Given the contrast numbers, I would think that the Samsung B550 has much better contrast than last year's Panny PZ800.

Does this mean, in reality, that the Samsung has better blacks than the PZ800? I'm not really sure how to interpret those numbers, and especially the difference between the modified ANSI and the regular number.

Contrast ratio is slightly better than the 800u, but the difference is due to higher light output of the Samsung vs. the 800u, both after calibration. After taking a second look at my figures, the black level of the Samsung is actually a fraction higher than the 800u, but it's light output is quite a bit higher, which gives it a slightly better contrast ratio.
post #244 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

Chad, are you going to post the minimum luminance fL number on the 2009 Samsungs? All this talk about black level and we still don't have the measurement. Thanks.

It's possible to calculate it from the numbers I posted. Take the 100% white window luminance and divide it by the on/off contrast ratio number.
Taking the B860 for example, looking at the attached report we see that the 100% white window luminance level was 45.5 fL after calibration. On/off CR was 2481, so 45.5/2481=.0183 fL black. Don't use the 0% listed in the attached report; it was taken with the i1Pro meter, which is not accurate measuring very dark black levels.
post #245 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzy View Post

I can't help thinking there must be something more to it than this - I read the Samsung flyer about some of the improvements they were implementing for "Some of the deepest blacks ever to grace a HDTV" (their words) on their new "Mega Contrast" panels and it sounded like they meant business but then Samsung are masters of marketing hype! (amongst others!)

"The proof of the pudding is in the eating" as we say in England and maybe this first taste of the B860 shows far from what one expected as far as just black levels are concerned and maybe other subsequent tests/reviews will shed more insight - "One Swallow does not make a Summer" is another fine English saying that now also comes to mind!

Bazzy!

You've got to learn how to interpret marketing BS speak. The numerous surrounding references to the new AR coating were the tip off that they were probably talking perceived contrast and MLL's.
post #246 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

Ok, now I'm really confused. Based on those figures there are only two plasma series that have better blacks than the best LCDs, and the rest are actually worse. But the sweeping generalization has always been "plasmas have better blacks, period". So here I am in plasmaville considering replacing my LCD only to find out my two year old LCD has better blacks than a lot of todays plasmas. Color me thoroughly confused.

Nothing is ever like it was in the old days... Plasma's no longer have the edge in absolute black level. However, in my opinion absolute black levels is way, way over-hyped, confirmed by some of the comments in this thread. Way too much emphasis is being put on a panel's absolute black level, so much so that manufacturers are compromising image quality in a lot of other areas, just to reach the best possible absolute black level. This includes plasma manufacturers by the way. The reason Pioneer's were the top of the pops in this regard, is that they are the only manufacturer to reach a very, very good black level without causing visible negative side effects in the process. They did/does not only have very deep black level, but also very good shadow detail and color accuracy in dark areas. All displays I've seen so far with similar black level, has had very visible compromises in gamma or color performance, or both.

This is also why you should be very cautious when drawing any direct conclusions off such measurements, they only tell the truth of one very specific area of performance, but nothing about any of the other performance differences that exists, that are at least equally as important, but just not as easy to measure and compare.

Personally I feel that one of the biggest issues right now with the latest displays, post calibration, is gamma performance, and specifically how gamma performance changes related to the image input. On a lot of displays, the gamma performance varies wildly related to what is being shown, and a simple 11-step measurement of the display's gamma won't accurately reveal this. Again, the Kuro's have a gamma that is a bit high, but setup correctly it's rather steady, which is just as important. With other tv's, both plasma and LCD but mostly LCD's, I often get the feeling that in some scenes black level and shadow detail looks beautiful, on other scenes it looks horrid. That just doesn't happen with a good, linear, steady gamma - which these measurements tells you nothing about.
post #247 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

It's possible to calculate it from the numbers I posted. Take the 100% white window luminance and divide it by the on/off contrast ratio number.
Taking the B860 for example, looking at the attached report we see that the 100% white window luminance level was 45.5 fL after calibration. On/off CR was 2481, so 45.5/2481=.0183 fL black. Don't use the 0% listed in the attached report; it was taken with the i1Pro meter, which is not accurate measuring very dark black levels.

I saw the 58b860 today at BB. Nice picture in a direct TV feed. but im not a fan of the new thin plasma or LCD look. They TV looked cheap, plastic around the bezel and the glass stand was a turn off to me. I much prefer the 58b650. Black bezel and the TV pq is near equal if not better than the 860 IMHO !
post #248 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by jae3cpa View Post

I saw the 58b860 today at BB. Nice picture in a direct TV feed. but im not a fan of the new thin plasma or LCD look. They TV looked cheap, plastic around the bezel and the glass stand was a turn off to me. I much prefer the 58b650. Black bezel and the TV pq is near equal if not better than the 860 IMHO !



How did you like the "silver tinsel" around the tv.I thought it looked cheap also.
post #249 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by john7000 View Post

How did you like the "silver tinsel" around the tv.I thought it looked cheap also.

I guess everyone has there own view of the new PN58B860. I thought the TV had a nice sleek look in combination with the silver aluminum stand, very stylish in my opinion. The stand siwvels which is a neat feature of last year's models.
post #250 of 3219
So I found a BB near by that had the PN50B860. I really loved the look of this tv. The sleek profile is really cool. Its about the same thickness of the LEDs Samsung has out. They clearly had all the settings jacked to the max on this thing. The blacks looked kinda grey and I know this model can produce deep dark blacks.
post #251 of 3219
I think the 860 is sleek also.they could of used a warmer color then silver.
post #252 of 3219
I'm looking at buying the PN58B860, and I really love the Samsung slim wall mount bracket WMN1000B. The specs for the bracket only list the 50" model, even though the 58" is well within the 110 lb. weight limit. Can anybody tell me if the back of the 58" has the same mounting holes as the 50"? I'll be mounting to studs, so I'm guessing there should be no problem.
post #253 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barometer View Post

I'm looking at buying the PN58B860, and I really love the Samsung slim wall mount bracket WMN1000B. The specs for the bracket only list the 50" model, even though the 58" is well within the 110 lb. weight limit. Can anybody tell me if the back of the 58" has the same mounting holes as the 50"? I'll be mounting to studs, so I'm guessing there should be no problem.

I don't know but here's a mount that's only .4" that you might want to consider (it's good for 125lbs)
http://www.chiefmfg.com/productdetail.aspx?MountID=261
post #254 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto J View Post

Nothing is ever like it was in the old days... Plasma's no longer have the edge in absolute black level. However, in my opinion absolute black levels is way, way over-hyped, confirmed by some of the comments in this thread. Way too much emphasis is being put on a panel's absolute black level, so much so that manufacturers are compromising image quality in a lot of other areas, just to reach the best possible absolute black level. This includes plasma manufacturers by the way. The reason Pioneer's were the top of the pops in this regard, is that they are the only manufacturer to reach a very, very good black level without causing visible negative side effects in the process. They did/does not only have very deep black level, but also very good shadow detail and color accuracy in dark areas. All displays I've seen so far with similar black level, has had very visible compromises in gamma or color performance, or both.

This is also why you should be very cautious when drawing any direct conclusions off such measurements, they only tell the truth of one very specific area of performance, but nothing about any of the other performance differences that exists, that are at least equally as important, but just not as easy to measure and compare.

Personally I feel that one of the biggest issues right now with the latest displays, post calibration, is gamma performance, and specifically how gamma performance changes related to the image input. On a lot of displays, the gamma performance varies wildly related to what is being shown, and a simple 11-step measurement of the display's gamma won't accurately reveal this. Again, the Kuro's have a gamma that is a bit high, but setup correctly it's rather steady, which is just as important. With other tv's, both plasma and LCD but mostly LCD's, I often get the feeling that in some scenes black level and shadow detail looks beautiful, on other scenes it looks horrid. That just doesn't happen with a good, linear, steady gamma - which these measurements tells you nothing about.

Otto, you make some very good points. Doesn't it seem that everyone is nit picking each set that comes out and will always find some fault with each? What I find funny is that they always buy one, so is everyone compromising? When all these issues are talked about, people make assumptions based on other peoples views, comments, calibrators etc. etc. but they really have to see the sets in person. The problem is that if you didn't know about the issue you might never see it or notice it, now you tend to look for the issues. Yeah, there are issues with Plasmas and LCD (CFL & LED) but for the most part we can all make the set look great in our homes and be satified with it. While all this calibration information is great, if it is making you pass year after year on getting a new TV waiting for the "perfect" set, then you'll be waiting for a long time.

Just some thoughts because Otto's comments are true.
post #255 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barometer View Post

I'm looking at buying the PN58B860, and I really love the Samsung slim wall mount bracket WMN1000B. The specs for the bracket only list the 50" model, even though the 58" is well within the 110 lb. weight limit. Can anybody tell me if the back of the 58" has the same mounting holes as the 50"? I'll be mounting to studs, so I'm guessing there should be no problem.

I would not use the slim mount for the 58". It is not well within the 110 pounds, I am pretty sure the 58" ir around 100 lbs. I would stick with with the mount says it can handle, I am sure Samsung would have listed the 58" models if it would work fine, it would have meant more sales for the mount if they did.
post #256 of 3219
No interested in all the wireless, connectivity, etc. bells and whistles of the b850/860, so:


Four questions:

Does the B550 have the same pqas the b850/860?

Does the B550 have the same user menu settings for calibration as the b850/860?

Does the b550 have one pane of glass like the b850/860?

If the B550 doesn't have any of these and the b850/860 does, which other Samusung starting at b560 and up has all of them?
post #257 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by emelioestaves View Post

I would not use the slim mount for the 58". It is not well within the 110 pounds, I am pretty sure the 58" ir around 100 lbs. I would stick with with the mount says it can handle, I am sure Samsung would have listed the 58" models if it would work fine, it would have meant more sales for the mount if they did.

The 58" is about 80 lbs. without the stand, but your point is well taken. Samsung would offer it if they could make more sales...
post #258 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by thj17 View Post

I don't know but here's a mount that's only .4" that you might want to consider (it's good for 125lbs)

The installation video was hilarious (especially the Snickers bar). That looks like a good alternative, thanks for the tip.
post #259 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barometer View Post

The installation video was hilarious (especially the Snickers bar). That looks like a good alternative, thanks for the tip.

yeah but keep in mind that in the video this is the tilting version which is .75" the fixed one is only .4"

since the set is something like 81 pounds you're ok with both versions I guess

this is what I plan to use for a minimum total thickness
post #260 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFigueiredo View Post

No interested in all the wireless, connectivity, etc. bells and whistles of the b850/860, so:


Four questions:

Does the B550 have the same pqas the b850/860?

Does the B550 have the same user menu settings for calibration as the b850/860?

Does the b550 have one pane of glass like the b850/860?

If the B550 doesn't have any of these and the b850/860 does, which other Samusung starting at b560 and up has all of them?

1. Generally yes, but the 8 series has a much darker AR filter so it will look better in brighter environments.

2. No.

3. There is nothing else from Samsung that has the same dark AR filter and single layer of glass as the 8 series plasmas.
post #261 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post

3. There is nothing else from Samsung that has the same dark AR filter and single layer of glass as the 8 series plasmas.

650 has a pretty dark filter itself. I couldn't tell much of a difference between the two at Best Buy.
post #262 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

650 has a pretty dark filter itself. I couldn't tell much of a difference between the two at Best Buy.

It seems that, from what I've been reading, if someone doesn't need all the 850/860 have to offer (media 2.0, more calibration options, etc.) they have been going for the B650.

Correct me if I'm wrong someone, but I believe to answer the last question about single pane of glass, the 590 is the lowest # with that feature.

I think you'll get a lot more answers on the lower #s, such as the 590 and 650 at the 2009 Plasma Thread. This link gets you to a section where they're talking a little about the single pane on the 590, but it sounded like the reason they went with the 590 over the 650 was because they don't make a 63" version of the 650.

Good luck
post #263 of 3219
I just purchased a 58B860. So far, the picture is absolutely amazing whether on cable HD or Blu Ray. SD is fine. Fabulous set.
post #264 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW Buff View Post

I just purchased a 58B860. So far, the picture is absolutely amazing whether on cable HD or Blu Ray. SD is fine. Fabulous set.

NW Buff

How far away are you(your head) from the tv ??

Thanks john
post #265 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW Buff View Post

I just purchased a 58B860 ... SD is fine...

Newbie question since I'm looking at the 58B860 also: our local cable monopoly, er, open-competition cable company doesn't offer a lot of HD channels yet, so I think I'll be watching at least some SD. Do I need to worry about upconverting a SD channel through a AV receiver? Besides SD cable and the Wii, I don't think I'll have any non-HD sources.
post #266 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post


It also looked very contrasty.

What is the meaning of this statement from the review?

Jens
post #267 of 3219
Hello all, just ordered a 50 860, getting delivered later this week. Had the samsung edge lit luxia LED @46'' but returned it due to the clouding and flashlighting. I'll keep everyone posted how it turns out.
post #268 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by john7000 View Post

NW Buff

How far away are you(your head) from the tv ??

Thanks john

It varies between 11 and 13 feet depending on where on the sectional you sit
post #269 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barometer View Post

Newbie question since I'm looking at the 58B860 also: our local cable monopoly, er, open-competition cable company doesn't offer a lot of HD channels yet, so I think I'll be watching at least some SD. Do I need to worry about upconverting a SD channel through a AV receiver? Besides SD cable and the Wii, I don't think I'll have any non-HD sources.

The picture is not as clear as HD (no surprise), but it is fine. I have found it varies by channel because some SD cable channels are very poor no matter the TV
post #270 of 3219
Quote:
Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post

1. Generally yes, but the 8 series has a much darker AR filter so it will look better in brighter environments.

2. No.

3. There is nothing else from Samsung that has the same dark AR filter and single layer of glass as the 8 series plasmas.

So just to confirm:

The B550 is the same as the B850 except for a better reflections coating and a single pane of glass? Otherwise, it's the same internal guts?
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