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Best comb filter EVER? C2? Holo? Entech? Put on your gloves! - Page 5

post #121 of 198
5/22/10 at 6:44am
Thanks Fudoh. I looked it up and I think most Pioneer DVR players have the same 3D 5-line comb filter. Maybe the better ones have a better analog path.
I would love to find a comb filter that with the X9 produce a picture that are in the same ballpark as the X0, I rather have a X9 than a X0 (easier to repair).
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post #122 of 198
5/22/10 at 10:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

Thanks Fudoh. I looked it up and I think most Pioneer DVR players have the same 3D 5-line comb filter. Maybe the better ones have a better analog path.

Out of curiosity, any American models?
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post #123 of 198
5/22/10 at 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

I still don't fully understand the X0. In theory it should not be possible to create a 3D y/c filter which (on highest setting) does not produce any checkerboards.

I've never used an X0, but it was always my impression in the past that it had a 2-D filter. It's new information to me that it has settings marked "3-D Y/C".

Is it possible that the player uses the same OSD as the X9, but that those particular settings aren't actually active?
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post #124 of 198
5/22/10 at 10:18am
A shot from the X0's menu:

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post #125 of 198
5/22/10 at 11:47am
very interesting info


Michael

 

FortelDTVCombFilterWhitePaper.pdf 26.2060546875k . file
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post #126 of 198
5/22/10 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

I've never used an X0, but it was always my impression in the past that it had a 2-D filter. It's new information to me that it has settings marked "3-D Y/C".

Is it possible that the player uses the same OSD as the X9, but that those particular settings aren't actually active?


Josh, the X0 came out before the X9 did (X0 1995 , X9 1996) and it always had a 3D comb filter.

http://thadlabs.com/LD_info/ivar_features.txt

Michael
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post #127 of 198
5/22/10 at 2:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Out of curiosity, any American models?

I would guess. Do as I did, search on any of the models + 3D comb filter and see if you find anything. It looks like the Pioneer DVR on the European market have had for the past years a 3D comb filter in most models.
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post #128 of 198
5/22/10 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

I've never used an X0, but it was always my impression in the past that it had a 2-D filter. It's new information to me that it has settings marked "3-D Y/C".

Is it possible that the player uses the same OSD as the X9, but that those particular settings aren't actually active?


The X0 have a 3D comb filter, one of the first. Maybe it is not as aggressive in the highest setting as the X9? Or maybe it is better thought out than the X9.
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post #129 of 198
5/22/10 at 4:31pm
Pictures.

From to top to bottom all the 3D Y/C settings of the Pioneer DVR (Video Essentials):











Toy Story - from top to bottom

- X0 S-Video
- X9 S-Video
- X9 Composite -> Pioneer -> Moquito







The Mosquito's settings for the last capture:



Toy Story Clip: http://www.sendspace.com/file/3cmgv9
(X9, Composite, Pioneer DVR, Mosquito, IVTC filter, h.264 encoding, 45mb)

So, yes the X0 is a tiny bit better with it's magic comb filter, but the X9 is pretty close this way

PS: the differences in saturation are caused by me playing with the 0 / 7.5ire settings. I'm still not sure if it's better to have the LD player remove the brightness offset, to have the capture card do it or to leave the +7.5ire in the picture and adjust it afterwards. Any ideas on that ?
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post #130 of 198
5/22/10 at 9:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

Ok - and the best last: FINALLY found a 3D Y/C as good the X0's (or better?) outside Pioneer's 40kg monster

I'm talking about the comb filter my Pioneer LX70 (a 2007/2008 HDD/DVD combo here in Europe). Worst of all it had been hiding in plain sight all along, but it never jumped me to route a composite signal through it. The machine has per input settings which look like a mix of the X9 and the X0's menu. 3D Y/C can be set with the lowest setting being a 2D one. When moving the slider from 0 to 1 you can see the jump in filtering on static images. The menu explains that higher settings are meant for static images while the lower ones are for move movement. On the highest setting I can spot tiny checkerboards in high movement areas, but on the lower or medium settings, it's really shining. Backgrounds are cleared up visibly better than by the X9's internal S-Video seperation and the 3D decision is extremely quick with no checkerboard patterns even on critical material. Unfortunately the LX70's HDMI output is HDCP protected at all times. Still the component output has great quality and allows me to feed the signal into an analogue Algolith Mosquito.

While I had the composite output connected to the 50pro earlier today, I also threw in the Video Essentials discs, just to see that the 50Pro's comb filter utterly fails on seperating color bars and keeping a lot of rainbows on the resolution pattern. The LX70's comb filter on the other hand does a very nice job on this test patterns. The color bars seperation exceeds what the X9's comb filter can do and the sharpness pattern looks very good (while not a 100% perfect).

For me this is it. Finally. Both on real live material and on synthetic patterns this beats everything I've tried before (which includes the infamous Entech units). My LD setup for the future will look like this: X9 -> composite (!) -> LX70 -> Mosquito -> 50Pro (for viewing) / Blackmagic (for recording).

I told ya so!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...9&postcount=81

TLK
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post #131 of 198
5/23/10 at 1:49am
Fudoh,

thanks for your screenshots of the S&W moving Zone Plate pattern.

I noticed that you need to go way up to the max setting to get a good result
on the still resolution patterns.

I only needed mid setting +1 on the X0 to get the result I posted
a couple of months ago.

so it looks like the 2D/3D threshold is slightly skewed to the max position
on your recorder.

Michael
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post #132 of 198
5/23/10 at 4:50am
Fudoh, Thanks, is it possible to get the same shots with DVR but without the Mosquito?
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post #133 of 198
5/23/10 at 5:35am
That's the same shot as above, but with the Mosquito disabled.

http://pms.hazard-city.de/without_mosquito.jpg
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post #134 of 198
10/1/10 at 12:40am
This is a reply to the following thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1276726

But, in reality, it belongs here...

So, I bought one of these RCA/Curtis DRC8335 VHS/DVD Recorders from eBay for less than $30. It was advertised in need of a repair. All it needed was a new capacitor at C226 (replaced with a RadioShack 470uF/35 Volt capacitor stock #272-1030, which cost $1.61 with tax). Here are my findings.

I have a Pioneer LD-S2 and a Dazzle Hollywood DV Bridge capture card which goes into iMovie through FireWire.

LD-S2 (composite) --> DRC8335 (s-video) --> Dazzle --> iMovie:



LD-S2 (composite) --> Dazzle --> iMovie:



LD-S2 (s-video) --> Dazzle --> iMovie:



LD-S2 (composite) --> Entech SVSI-1 (s-video) --> Dazzle --> iMovie:



LD-S2 (composite) --> Crystal Vision VPS-1 (s-video) --> Dazzle --> iMovie:



As you can see, there's not a whole lot of difference with the composite vs. s-video vs. the Entech SVSI-1 vs. the Crystal Vision VPS-1. But there's a HUGE difference between all of those and the DRC8335!

Thanks for the tip, lzrplayr (from the other thread)! I'm really happy with my "refurbed" DRC8335 as a rather cumbersome, but effective, comb filter.

TLK
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post #135 of 198
10/1/10 at 8:40am
the LD-S2 recombines the Composite from S-Video internally , so there can't be any better result.

Michael
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post #136 of 198
10/1/10 at 8:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nidi View Post

the LD-S2 recombines the Composite from S-Video internally , so there can't be any better result.

Michael

Even the BNC composite output?

TLK
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post #137 of 198
10/1/10 at 9:29am
Quote:


the LD-S2 recombines the Composite from S-Video internally , so there can't be any better result.

but this is what everybody said about the X9 as well and I think we proved this wrong right here earlier this year, didn't we ?
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post #138 of 198
10/1/10 at 4:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

but this is what everybody said about the X9 as well and I think we proved this wrong right here earlier this year, didn't we ?

but these are the early US 90's models , which all recombine the S-Video

Michael
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post #139 of 198
10/12/10 at 10:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lizard King View Post

This is a reply to the following thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1276726

But, in reality, it belongs here...

So, I bought one of these RCA/Curtis DRC8335 VHS/DVD Recorders from eBay for less than $30. It was advertised in need of a repair. All it needed was a new capacitor at C226 (replaced with a RadioShack 470uF/35 Volt capacitor stock #272-1030, which cost $1.61 with tax). Here are my findings.

I have a Pioneer LD-S2 and a Dazzle Hollywood DV Bridge capture card which goes into iMovie through FireWire.

As you can see, there's not a whole lot of difference with the composite vs. s-video vs. the Entech SVSI-1 vs. the Crystal Vision VPS-1. But there's a HUGE difference between all of those and the DRC8335!

Thanks for the tip, lzrplayr (from the other thread)! I'm really happy with my "refurbed" DRC8335 as a rather cumbersome, but effective, comb filter.

TLK

Man that is great, I've been wondering if a guy couldn't somehow strip the drc8335 down, remove the vhs and dvd part, and re-house it in some other smaller box.

Your drc8835 images are without a doubt far superior to the more costly comb filters, yet I am puzzled as to why they don't look quite as good as my results. I am guessing that your different dazzle model and/or mac, imovie vs. my usb dazzle, pc, and vdub must have something to do with it. Unless there is some capture setting for your card or imovie that could be tweaked.

nidi, I'm not certain what you meant by "the LD-S2 recombines the Composite from S-Video internally , so there can't be any better result."

In case someone missed my screen caps, here are a couple:

CLD-1030 (composite) --> DRC8335 (s-video) --> Dazzle 107 usb --> vdub:


CLD-1030 (composite) --> Vidicraft Proc-Amp (composite) --> DRC8335 (s-video) --> Dazzle 107 usb --> vdub:


CLD-D704 (composite) --> DRC8335 (s-video) --> Dazzle 107 usb --> vdub:


All images are as-captured. No image manipulation was done.
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post #140 of 198
10/14/10 at 9:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lzrplayr View Post

Man that is great, I've been wondering if a guy couldn't somehow strip the drc8335 down, remove the vhs and dvd part, and re-house it in some other smaller box.

I use the DVD player, because I can zoom with it pretty well. The VHS player is inoperable. I cannot even get a tape into the slot with mine. I'm not worried about it, though... I have a decent VHS player and I only watch 2-3 VHS tapes anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lzrplayr View Post

Your drc8835 images are without a doubt far superior to the more costly comb filters, yet I am puzzled as to why they don't look quite as good as my results. I am guessing that your different dazzle model and/or mac, imovie vs. my usb dazzle, pc, and vdub must have something to do with it. Unless there is some capture setting for your card or imovie that could be tweaked.

It's because my REALLY OLD version of iMovie (version 3) on my Jaguar OSX (10.2) only captures one of the two fields from a particular video frame. So, each of my pics is a "half frame" from the LD's interlaced video. After I encode to MPEG-2, and the resulting video is deinterlaced with a progressive-scan player, they look better.

TLK
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post #141 of 198
10/18/10 at 5:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lizard King View Post

It's because my REALLY OLD version of iMovie (version 3) on my Jaguar OSX (10.2) only captures one of the two fields from a particular video frame. So, each of my pics is a "half frame" from the LD's interlaced video. After I encode to MPEG-2, and the resulting video is deinterlaced with a progressive-scan player, they look better.

TLK

Ok that makes sense. As I understand the DRC8335 has a TBC but I am uncertain if using it for pass through like this also kicks in the TBC or not. I did just realize something though: I had set my capture card to capture a 768x576 PAL 25fps signal, which I was using to capture the composite from my PAL vcr. Then I switched the card to capture from the s-video still in PAL format from my DRC8335, which when I first powered it on, of course the vcr menu screen was whack (being in NTSC), but as soon as I hit 'live signal' for pass through, it sent a beautiful y/c separated svideo PAL signal to my card! I don't know if that is normal or not, I would have thought the DRC8335 would only separate NTSC properly...
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post #142 of 198
10/19/10 at 9:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lzrplayr View Post

Ok that makes sense. As I understand the DRC8335 has a TBC but I am uncertain if using it for pass through like this also kicks in the TBC or not. I did just realize something though: I had set my capture card to capture a 768x576 PAL 25fps signal, which I was using to capture the composite from my PAL vcr. Then I switched the card to capture from the s-video still in PAL format from my DRC8335, which when I first powered it on, of course the vcr menu screen was whack (being in NTSC), but as soon as I hit 'live signal' for pass through, it sent a beautiful y/c separated svideo PAL signal to my card! I don't know if that is normal or not, I would have thought the DRC8335 would only separate NTSC properly...

More awesomeness from this amazing little VHS/DVD recorder! Thanks.

TLK
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post #143 of 198
12/21/11 at 12:43am
hey TLK, did you have a chance to see if running LD composite into the rca 8335 will output a progressive component signal?
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post #144 of 198
12/25/11 at 5:53pm
I don't have an RCA 8335 but I can say that converting composite to progressive scan
in a DVD/VHS combi player is a significant added hunk of technology not normally found
in this type of player.

VHS side
VHS to S-video -- Quite trivial because VHS is natively similar to S-video.
VHS to composite -- Also quite trivial. S-video to composite is essentially a summing
process (using a built in Y-connector?)
VHS to component -- The hunk of added technology, converting S-video to 480i
component. Only a minority of DVD/VHS combi players have this.

DVD side
DVD to 480i component -- Quite trivial because DVD is natively similar to Y/Pb/Pr.
DVD to S-video -- Almost all DVD players have this because S-video remains a common
output choice.
DVD to composite -- Uses the preceding, and the same S-video to composite process as
VHS to composite.

Composite (from external input or built in tuner)
Composite to S-video -- Uses comb filter as discussed throughout this thread. Needed
because NTSC broadcasts are composite video.
Composite to component -- Uses comb filter, see also VHS to component above.

Progressive scan output (480i component to 480p component) -- Not all DVD players
have this; for those that do, the de-interlacing quality varies widely from one model to
another. If the player outputs DVD as progressive scan, it cannot output VHS or
(composite) LD as progressive scan unless it has the S-video to (480i) component piece.

1080i output -- Requires the de-interlacing piece described immediately above,
producing 480p as an intermediate step.

Exercise for the reader -- Draw a block diagram showing all of the above pieces and
video signal paths.
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post #145 of 198
5/17/12 at 7:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lzrplayr View Post

hey TLK, did you have a chance to see if running LD composite into the rca 8335 will output a progressive component signal?

No, I didn't. I'll have to look into it.

TLK
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post #146 of 198
5/25/12 at 3:23pm
Before I could run any tests on my RCA DRC8335, it crapped out on me with the "Hello" screen, which cannot be fixed via replacing capacitors this time. So, I've done a lot of testing with various comb filters, and I've come to the conclusion that the best one that I have on hand is the Faroudja NRS. Here is how it performs on the Snell & Wilcox 2 test pattern from Chapter 15 of the Video Essentials LD:



TLK
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post #147 of 198
5/29/12 at 2:07am
The Lizard King,

What is the output resolution of your NRS? Your screenshot looks as if the NRS is rolling off the higher frequencies, such as the 300 and 400 line patterns. The colors also look muted compared to your earlier screenshots.
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post #148 of 198
5/29/12 at 7:07am
Thread Starter 
Great to see this thread still getting some love. I've been looking for a cheap rca 8335 on eBay. Most affordable units are in various stage of "broken". What is easily recoverable and what isn't?

I'm wondering if there is perhaps an identical model in a different brand--emerson, phillips etc? Anyone know?
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post #149 of 198
5/29/12 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steradian View Post

The Lizard King,

What is the output resolution of your NRS? Your screenshot looks as if the NRS is rolling off the higher frequencies, such as the 300 and 400 line patterns. The colors also look muted compared to your earlier screenshots.

I had the multiple resolution mod done to my NRS by lifestyleshomeentertainment.com. I am outputing 720p for that particular screen cap. I had the contrast too low (about 118) on it, which could be one of the reasons why the color is muted compared to earlier screen caps. I now keep the contrast at about 121 (factory is 128, which according to the Video Essentials LD, is way too high).

What does "rolling off the higher frequencies, such as the 300 and 400 line patterns" mean?

TLK
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post #150 of 198
5/29/12 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post

Great to see this thread still getting some love. I've been looking for a cheap rca 8335 on eBay. Most affordable units are in various stage of "broken". What is easily recoverable and what isn't?

I'm wondering if there is perhaps an identical model in a different brand--emerson, phillips etc? Anyone know?

Most of the time, if it powers up but is inoperable in the "Hello" screen, then replacing capacitor C226 usually does the trick.

TLK
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