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Best comb filter EVER? C2? Holo? Entech? Put on your gloves! - Page 4

post #91 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post

Hi, Michael -
I don't yet know what you have. But just to be clear: please note that I wrote that you can't see the problems with the 3d/deinterlacing process in still frames. It is during normal playback when the artifacts are produced.


The X0 actually has three available signal sources -
S-Video - the Composite signal is separated by the 3D filter, processed and the two components (Y and C) are output through the S-Video jack.
Composite RCA - the Composite signal is separated by the 3D filter for the purpose of implementing noise reduction as accessed through the settings menu. After the noise reduction is performed the Y and C signals are (re)combined into Composite and output through the Composite RCA jack.
Composite BNC - the Composite signal from the disc is passed along directly to the Composite BNC jack. There is no processing - the settings do not affect this Composite signal.

That is the big feature of the X0. It is virtually unique in most laserdisc machines; especially the latter-day higher-end models.
It is definitely unique among the last-generation narrow-wavelength laser players (developed for HD Muse playback).

So the reason for the Y/C filter after the X0 is to get the best Composite signal possible into the best and/or purest Y/C filter possible. There are a few excellent 2D filters - outboard and onboard in the best video processors - that are not compromised by the inevitable loss of resolution, color shift, and ringing resulting from noise reduction.

Pls check PM. Thanks.



so which external 2D comb filter is the best ?

I've got three here, 2 Entechs and the Alchemy VRS

all of them don't even come close to the X0.

any other ones you can recommend ?

Michael
post #92 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post

Hi, Michael -
I don't yet know what you have. But just to be clear: please note that I wrote that you can't see the problems with the 3d/deinterlacing process in still frames. It is during normal playback when the artifacts are produced.

maybe there's something wrong with your signal chain.

I'm using an MPEG2 decoder card called X-Card coupled with a
Pixelmagic Parallel Digital SDI Card going native res (480i/576i) via
SDI into a Crystalio 2 scaler using a Gennum deinterlacer and
scaling it up to 876P 75 Hz for PAL and 960P 72/75Hz for NTSC sources.

I captured hundreds of hours off my X0 and have never seen anything
you describe.

let me know if you see something in my captures.

Fudoh and NIN74 are looking into the captures as well


Thanks

Michael
post #93 of 198
Quote:


There are a few excellent 2D filters - outboard and onboard in the best video processors - that are not compromised by the inevitable loss of resolution, color shift, and ringing resulting from noise reduction.

please elaborate ! There've been numerous threads on this topic on this board over the past one or two years, but without any definite answers on this. I probably won't step up to the X0 (from my X9) for the few LDs I watch from time to time, but I would really like to know which comb filters you consider to be excellent - both standalone and in VP units.
post #94 of 198
I have a hard time to see the differences in Michael's Fifth Element captures. The X0's processing looks way better than the Entech of course, but the difference in the X0's comb filter settings are subtle.

I would love to cross check the Fifth Element sequence on my X9, but I have a hard time to find a Pioneer pressing of the disc. If anyone in Europe would be willing to lend or sell me one, PM please!
post #95 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post

Composite BNC - the Composite signal from the disc is passed along directly to the Composite BNC jack. There is no processing - the settings do not affect this Composite signal.

If I remember correctly the BNC composite output will be effected. I remember that OSD is active on the BNC at least.
post #96 of 198
NIN -

I can't find my old X0 Service Manual w/ schematics, but my memory is slightly different:

There are two separate circuits in the X0. It is not simply a matter of a signal path with one filter where the processing is simply set at "0" or bypassed. I am pretty sure that the signal from the disc is split very early on, before any Y/C filtering (necessary for processing). The machine truly is a unique design - noticeably different, for example, than the X9.

While the on-screen graphics ("Play" "Stop" etc.) do show up on all three outputs, the characters are fed into the two signal paths - the one with processing + settings capabilities, and the one with the "pure" BNC output.

The effect of the NR circuit is visible even in the lowest/off settings (as a slight change, I'm not speaking about the digital artifacts issue). It's been a while since I A-B'd the BNC and RCA outputs. I will try to do that soon.

Remember ... it was YOU that forced me to see this a long time ago!!!
post #97 of 198
The first Austin Powers movie is also a good test case for the X9 comb filter's "checkerboard" artifact. During the opening credits sequence, Austin hides in a red phone booth as a bunch of girls run by. The motion in the shot causes the colors to break up into pixelated blocks when 3D filtering is engaged. Only by turning off the 3D setting entirely does this problem go away.
post #98 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

The first Austin Powers movie is also a good test case for the X9 comb filter's "checkerboard" artifact. During the opening credits sequence, Austin hides in a red phone booth as a bunch of girls run by. The motion in the shot causes the colors to break up into pixelated blocks when 3D filtering is engaged. Only by turning off the 3D setting entirely does this problem go away.


Austin Powers test clips from X0's comb filter also available from me,

PM if interested

Michael
post #99 of 198
Thanks for the capture nidi. From what I could see the X0 comb filter had clearer and sharper image than with the entech.
post #100 of 198
so Fudoh, NIN74 and Hunter

have you been able to have a look at the files yet?


Michael
post #101 of 198
anyone willing to do some clips with the X9 ?

so what's the verdict on those clips I captured?

Michael
post #102 of 198
Quote:
so what's the verdict on those clips I captured?

The Entech is clearly out of the question. I would still love to learn which external 2D comb filter Hunter would recommend to surpass the X9 and/or X0's S-Video performance. I just can't think of any.

The X0 has indeed impressive results with difficult, moving color patters. The differences in the various 3D settings are overrated and hard to see.

I just have to pick out a few discs which you own as well and I'll do some X9 clips over the next days.
post #103 of 198
I agree with Fudoh, the X0 is clearly better than the Entech.
Thanks again nidi, now I don't need to get the entech.


Fudoh, will be nice to see but there is a problem with different capture cards. But that will probably don't effect how the comb filter works, just the picture quality.
post #104 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

I agree with Fudoh, the X0 is clearly better than the Entech.
Thanks again nidi, now I don't need to get the entech.


Fudoh, will be nice to see but there is a problem with different capture cards. But that will probably don't effect how the comb filter works, just the picture quality.

I might be able to get new in box X9 laying around at a friend's place to do

some captures, so the signal path would stay the same.


any other demo captures you want me to do ?


I also have a LD-S2 , CLD-99, CLD 2950 , MDP650 and LD-V8000 players
here

Michael
post #105 of 198
If you have the time to do X9 would be nice. LD-S2 would also be fun too see.
Have you tested some really bad looking LDs? I remember that I preferd the X0 over X9 on those because of lower videonoise.
post #106 of 198
Having about a thousand 80s HK LDs, so I have lots of REALLY bad LDs, but for the testrun I tried to find a LD which nidi does also have for easier comparison. Took a plunge on the US Toy Story this afternoon. Falls into the category of nearly unwatchable once you're aware fo the checkerboard effect around all available edges.

I now also know what the next potential high end video processor needs most: a perfect dot crawl filter which works indepently from the comb filter. I've captured a scene over and over again with all different comb filter settings, but none of them make a huge difference. What makes a huge difference on the other side is a simple and really old software-based dot crawl filter. I really don't understand why VP manufacturers never took something like this into their agenda.

I'll upload the showcase later on today and post the links.

What I've been wondering: it's been years since I watched any other LD player than the X9. Did all the mid 90s standard LD players have this severe checkerboard artefacts either ? Players like the CLD-925 or DVL-909 in Europe ? I'm amazed that it never bothered me before.....
post #107 of 198
Here are the videos:

1.) MPEG-2, interlaced
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MNRXJS3D

2.) h.264, progressive, dotcrawl filter applied
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=RKE57669

I don't say that the dotcrawl removal is perfect, but it easily shows that it can done in realtime nowadays and that it's a pity that no videoprocessor ever offerered such a feature.

@nidi: maybe you could capture the same scene from the CAV Toy Story disc ?
post #108 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

Here are the videos:

1.) MPEG-2, interlaced
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MNRXJS3D

2.) h.264, progressive, dotcrawl filter applied
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=RKE57669

I don't say that the dotcrawl removal is perfect, but it easily shows that it can done in realtime nowadays and that it's a pity that no videoprocessor ever offerered such a feature.

@nidi: maybe you could capture the same scene from the CAV Toy Story disc ?


what setting for the comb filter ? 3D on or off , or both?

Thanks

Michael
post #109 of 198
maybe both, off and on with a medium setting. No need for the various on settings though. Thanks ! (PS: Its the first scene after the Disney logo, before the opening credits)
post #110 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

What I've been wondering: it's been years since I watched any other LD player than the X9. Did all the mid 90s standard LD players have this severe checkerboard artefacts either ? Players like the CLD-925 or DVL-909 in Europe ? I'm amazed that it never bothered me before.....


I remember that I didn't noticed this at first with my X9. I think I first saw it when I got my X0 and watched more and more HD. Maybe one was more forgiven to analog (NTSC) artifacts then.
I have a 925 and a 315, do you have any scenes from maybe VE test disc that really show this? I mostly have cult movies on LD.
post #111 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

maybe both, off and on with a medium setting. No need for the various on settings though. Thanks ! (PS: Its the first scene after the Disney logo, before the opening credits)

Toy Story Entech:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/uai68k

Toy Story X0 min setting:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/igob1q

Toy Story X0 mid settng:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/artnmv

Toy Story X0 max setting:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/3lwmez


really noisy transfer , and it was THX back then!



Michael
post #112 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

What I've been wondering: it's been years since I watched any other LD player than the X9. Did all the mid 90s standard LD players have this severe checkerboard artefacts either ? Players like the CLD-925 or DVL-909 in Europe ? I'm amazed that it never bothered me before.....

The checkerboard artifact is related to the 3-D comb filter. All of those other players had 2-D filters. Only the CLD-99 (US), CLD-D99 (its Japanese equivalent), HLD-X9, LD-S9, and a couple of other obscure Japanese models that I'm forgetting at the moment, had 3-D filters.

What those other players have that the X9 does not, however, is the CLV smearing artifact.
post #113 of 198
Downloaded nidi's files, but I don't really get it.

The videos (no matter which setting) are practically 100% checkerboard free. Reading a lot about 3D comb filters this seems to be a common problem though, so either Pioneer reinvented the wheel with their X0 3D comb filter or it plain and easy isn't a 3D comb filter, but a 2D one which is wrongly labeled in the menu.

Other than that the X0's picture also has less noise. Overall this makes me really dislike my X9 and I hardly get how a X9 can be ranked so high with this - quite obvious - flaw.

Here's a few captures (200% zoom) - from top to bottom:

X0 - 3D comb filter ON (Medium setting)
X9 - 3D comb filter OFF
X9 - 3D comb filter ON (Medium setting)
X9 - 3D comb HR setting






The dot crawl removal filter doesn't look good on screen captures, but I would recommend to check the video above. Looks really nice.
post #114 of 198
I remember the difference with my X9 and X0 to be about the same.
The X0 3D filter is older than the X9 so I don't know why the X9 have worse checkerboard artifacts.
post #115 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

The checkerboard artifact is related to the 3-D comb filter. All of those other players had 2-D filters. Only the CLD-99 (US), CLD-D99 (its Japanese equivalent), HLD-X9, LD-S9, and a couple of other obscure Japanese models that I'm forgetting at the moment, had 3-D filters.

What those other players have that the X9 does not, however, is the CLV smearing artifact.

the CLD-99's comb filter was 3D , but it had a 2D stage before it, so totaly useless

Michael
post #116 of 198
I went through my collection of old posts on alt.video.laserdisc almost 16 years ago

enjoy

Michael

 

COMB FIL.zip 17.5576171875k . file
post #117 of 198
Just a few more observations:

today I connected my X9 to my 50Pro via composite instead of S-Video. This never came to my mind as I thought it was common sense that the composite output is just a recombined S-Video signal. I don't think so anymore. The 3D Y/C setting (exactly what's causing all the checkerboard patterns seen above) has no influence whatsoever on the composite output. This is quite obvious not only by simply having a look at the picture, but also when fiddling with the settings. While on S-Video output you can always see a jump in the picture when changing the 3D Y/C setting from Off to anything above. Once the X9 is connected via Composite instead, there's absolutely no sign of that.

Now, what I don't know is how good (or bad) the DVDO's 2D comb filter actually is (if present at all), but from my initial viewing the picture is considerably better than using the X9's S-Video output, even with the 3D Y/C setting turned off. Less noise, very few dotcrawls and no checkerboard patterns whatsoever. Likely of course not as good as the X0's composite output, but at least way better than those pics out of checkerboard hell seen above.

I can't judge anyone's statement on the X9's composite output, but at least I'm certain that it's completely indepented from the player's 3D Y/C setting, making the standpoint that it's a recombined S-Video video plainout wrong.

Captures upcoming this weekend!
post #118 of 198
Ok - and the best last: FINALLY found a 3D Y/C as good the X0's (or better?) outside Pioneer's 40kg monster

I'm talking about the comb filter my Pioneer LX70 (a 2007/2008 HDD/DVD combo here in Europe). Worst of all it had been hiding in plain sight all along, but it never jumped me to route a composite signal through it. The machine has per input settings which look like a mix of the X9 and the X0's menu. 3D Y/C can be set with the lowest setting being a 2D one. When moving the slider from 0 to 1 you can see the jump in filtering on static images. The menu explains that higher settings are meant for static images while the lower ones are for move movement. On the highest setting I can spot tiny checkerboards in high movement areas, but on the lower or medium settings, it's really shining. Backgrounds are cleared up visibly better than by the X9's internal S-Video seperation and the 3D decision is extremely quick with no checkerboard patterns even on critical material. Unfortunately the LX70's HDMI output is HDCP protected at all times. Still the component output has great quality and allows me to feed the signal into an analogue Algolith Mosquito.

While I had the composite output connected to the 50pro earlier today, I also threw in the Video Essentials discs, just to see that the 50Pro's comb filter utterly fails on seperating color bars and keeping a lot of rainbows on the resolution pattern. The LX70's comb filter on the other hand does a very nice job on this test patterns. The color bars seperation exceeds what the X9's comb filter can do and the sharpness pattern looks very good (while not a 100% perfect).

For me this is it. Finally. Both on real live material and on synthetic patterns this beats everything I've tried before (which includes the infamous Entech units). My LD setup for the future will look like this: X9 -> composite (!) -> LX70 -> Mosquito -> 50Pro (for viewing) / Blackmagic (for recording).
post #119 of 198
That sound very interesting. I love the X0 comb filter but if I could get even a better one, I would go for it. Do you have any way to capture from the Pioneer LX71? Toy story and Austin powers.
Is it really called LX71? The LX71 I found is just a bluray player.
post #120 of 198
I wouldn't go so far to call the comb filter better than the X0's. But with the nidi's captures I've seen over the past year, I can at least say that it's the closest the X9 will ever get to those results. I still don't fully understand the X0. In theory it should not be possible to create a 3D y/c filter which (on highest setting) does not produce any checkerboards.

Unfortunately I don't have the Austin Powers or Fifth Element LD, but I will do some captures of Toy Story and Video Essentials tonight.

My bad, it's the LX70, this one:
http://www.world-import.com/Pioneer_...D_Recorder.htm
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