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Samsung PN58B860 vs. Pioneer Kuro Elite

post #1 of 77
5/18/09 at 11:09am
Thread Starter 
For the record, I casually compared the new Samsung 58" 860 plasma to the beloved Kuro at Magnolia. The 860 was brighter, naturally sharper and offered better motion resolution. In an aerial view of a city, the Samsung offered greater clarity. Even so too with just a person’s face. The Kuro seemed a bit mis-focused in comparison.

Both had comparable black levels in the subdued lighting environment. The Kuro had more accurate deep reds with the uncalibrated 860 being a bit orange.

Power efficiency: While the 860 screen was not as hot as the Kuro, it still got fairly warm.

With a MSRP of $3200 the 58" 860 deserves serious consideration. My preliminary finding is I would purchase the 860 over the Kuro, without even taking (its double) price into consideration.

Only one Amazon customer review so far:
"As good if not better than Pioneer Elite. Just a stunning image. Incredibly thin. Best electronics purchase I have ever made."

I wholeheartedly agree. Notice the 860 plasma and the 9000 series local-dimming LCD are being released last of the 209 models. Apparently Samsung saves its best for last.
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post #2 of 77
5/18/09 at 11:31am
Not surprised at your findings. Other than the reds being a little off, everything you saw in the Sammy is what I frequently find in that comparison.

That is why I often say let your eyes decide. I'm pretty confident the Sammy will come out on top most of the time, even when compared to the kuros.
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post #3 of 77
5/18/09 at 12:09pm
HiFi - I noticed some of your posts in another thread discussing 1080p24...

What do you think about the 58B850 vs. the 58B860, assuming that the 860 has Cinema Smooth and the 850 does not?

Thanks!
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post #4 of 77
5/18/09 at 12:16pm
If the Samsung looked better to you, then go for it, nothing wrong with that, but comparisons in the store without setting both up the same are not the best way to compare TV's.
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post #5 of 77
5/18/09 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan View Post

...but comparisons in the store without setting both up the same are not the best way to compare TV's.

I see this repeated all the time here. Unless you are a professional reviewer, how else does one compare two models of TV from different manufacturers? If both TVs are near each other and running the same feed, what more could you ask for?
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post #6 of 77
5/18/09 at 12:31pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by delta_23 View Post

HiFi - I noticed some of your posts in another thread discussing 1080p24...

What do you think about the 58B850 vs. the 58B860, assuming that the 860 has Cinema Smooth and the 850 does not?

Thanks!

Samsung's motion interpolation is among the best, if not the best. Samsung is pushing plasma technology up to 96Hz refresh rate too. Recommended along with 24p as there is less judder and gaps in motion between frames. A true benefit when used in moderation.
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post #7 of 77
5/18/09 at 12:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by delta_23 View Post

I see this repeated all the time here. Unless you are a professional reviewer, how else does one compare two models of TV from different manufacturers? If both TVs are near each other and running the same feed, what more could you ask for?


I ask for the remotes and set both up to where I think I would like the picture if I had it at home. Some take content to the store and ask to be played thru the TV's they are thinking of purchasing. Otherwise, one might be in Movie mode while the other is in Sport introducing a lot of artifacts on the screen.
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post #8 of 77
5/18/09 at 12:39pm
Go w/ the Samsung. Pioneer has stopped making televisions and really got "off the bus" a year or so back.
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post #9 of 77
5/18/09 at 12:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Samsung's motion interpolation is among the best, if not the best. Samsung is pushing plasma technology up to 96Hz refresh rate too. Recommended along with 24p as there is less judder and gaps in motion between frames. A true benefit when used in moderation.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'moderation.' Either you turn Cinema Smooth on or off, right?
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post #10 of 77
5/18/09 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CVickers View Post

Go w/ the Samsung. Pioneer has stopped making televisions and really got "off the bus" a year or so back.

They did not get off yet, they did make the announcement that they would stop manufacturing plasmas, but that was in February of this year and kept producing plasmas after that.
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post #11 of 77
5/18/09 at 12:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by delta_23 View Post

I'm not sure what you mean by 'moderation.' Either you turn Cinema Smooth on or off, right?

For 2009 Samsung has fined-tuned the motion interpolation.

For the 240Hz LCD's there is a clear preset setting or set the custom blur and judder sliders. It should be ** roughly ** similiar for the plasma too, as Samsung uses common menus across their lines:
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post #12 of 77
5/18/09 at 12:53pm
I'm pretty sure AMP is something completely different than Cinema Smooth...which is just 24p like it is supposed to be...but at 72 or 96 hz...right?
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post #13 of 77
5/18/09 at 12:59pm
Juan: As of Feb they have stopped. Correct. What you see in the stores is stock being sold off. Big Box stores don't particularly like to advertise this. As a CI, my distributors have been out of stock or been pushing other brands since. Would you buy a Honda Civic if they were only going to make motorcycles and lawnmowers in the future.
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post #14 of 77
5/18/09 at 1:03pm
But I just bought a 6020fd, and I want it to be the best forever.

In all seriousness, Samsung is really the only one who's put anything out this year that looks, to my eyes, tangibly improved over last year. IR is still out of control, at least on the three sets I've examined personally, but image quality has advanced significantly beyond what my A550 produces.
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post #15 of 77
5/18/09 at 1:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CVickers View Post

Juan: As of Feb they have stopped. Correct. What you see in the stores is stock being sold off. Big Box stores don't particularly like to advertise this. As a CI, my distributors have been out of stock or been pushing other brands since. Would you buy a Honda Civic if they were only going to make motorcycles and lawnmowers in the future.


I don't think that is correct as I read here in of the threads that they would continue manufacturing plasmas thru out this year. I will look for the thread. A car is a way bigger investment than a TV, so no I would not, but any TV that is manufactured has parts made for spare and warranty work, after that TV's model stops, they don't continue to manufacture parts for it.
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post #16 of 77
5/18/09 at 1:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CVickers View Post

Juan: As of Feb they have stopped. Correct. What you see in the stores is stock being sold off. Big Box stores don't particularly like to advertise this. As a CI, my distributors have been out of stock or been pushing other brands since. Would you buy a Honda Civic if they were only going to make motorcycles and lawnmowers in the future.

One of the forum sponsors can clarify this, but I believe Pioneer has a few years worth of repair parts at hand. So anyone purchasing a Kuro is covered for some time.
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post #17 of 77
5/18/09 at 1:12pm
Pioneer announced by March 2010 it will be completely out of the TV business and will concentrate on car and audio/visual systems. That's just under a year to be COMPLETELY out. There are tons of Pioneer plasma's out there to sell, with some of the latest models still being made. I'm just saying.. as a "small" a/v business distributors are already separating themselves.
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post #18 of 77
5/18/09 at 1:16pm
Here is the thread I was talking about. I am just stating what I have read and in no way mean to get into an argument.

Lynk.
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post #19 of 77
5/18/09 at 1:37pm
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post #20 of 77
5/18/09 at 3:20pm
The new Samsung plasma sure is a looker. I can say that I am a fan.

I compared the new 63" which sat RIGHT NEXT to the 151, and they were both in torch mode. The Samsung was a tad brighter, but had less detail than the Elite, and the colors were much more natural looking on the Elite. The Elites superior contrast was evident, which would explain its greater detail.

As far as blacks were concerned, there was no contest. With letterboxing, the Samung had a deep charcoal gray look to them, while the Kuros blended right into the bezel.

The Samsung had a loud buzzing sound coming from behind the panel, but was inaudible at the 7ft that I was veiwing it from. I can also say that the Samsungs run MUCH hotter.

The Elite also had a buzzing coming from it, just not as severe, but again, inaudible from the 7ft.

The Kuro also did a much better job with the cleaning up the DirecTv feed they had playing through component to all the sets they had, other than the Sharp, which surprisingly, had the least amount of noise, and did the best job processing.
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post #21 of 77
5/18/09 at 3:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Samsung's motion interpolation is among the best, if not the best. Samsung is pushing plasma technology up to 96Hz refresh rate too. Recommended along with 24p as there is less judder and gaps in motion between frames. A true benefit when used in moderation.

I would disagree with this, as Sonys Motionflow has a more natural, fluid motion to their interpolation. It reduces the blur, while keeping the picture looking more like film than video.

The Samsungs are looking more and more "soapy" (A la Chadmak) with their interpolation, where as the Sonys, it is a bit more difficult to discern it is even on its lowest setting.
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post #22 of 77
5/18/09 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Post Blue View Post

But I just bought a 6020fd, and I want it to be the best forever.

In all seriousness, Samsung is really the only one who's put anything out this year that looks, to my eyes, tangibly improved over last year. IR is still out of control, at least on the three sets I've examined personally, but image quality has advanced significantly beyond what my A550 produces.

I have to agree with this in regards to PQ. So far, I have not been impressed with Panasonics offerings. The Samsungs look better to my eyes, especially in brighter enviornments. The Panasonics have an odd green haze to them, and the dithering is extremely excessive. The Samsungs look absolutely fantastic. The only complaint I would have, would be that their black levels still seem subpar.
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post #23 of 77
5/18/09 at 3:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by delta_23 View Post

I'm pretty sure AMP is something completely different than Cinema Smooth...which is just 24p like it is supposed to be...but at 72 or 96 hz...right?

It sure is different, but HiFun (or w/e his name is) never fails to turn every thread into a Samsung LCD lovefest.

That is why I commented above regarding his comment of Samsung being "the best" with their frame interpolation.
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post #24 of 77
5/18/09 at 3:56pm
I just watched a PN50B850 at Magnolia not even an hour ago.

It's a fantastic looking set for sure. They had it nearby a 6020 Kuro (both seperately playing a loop of a King Kong Blu-Ray) and I tried hard to discern a difference in motion resolution. After soaking in each for a while neither looked any better than the other in that area. Both were nice and crisp.

Beyond that, there's little point in making any comparisons. Both sets were far from setup optimally and they didn't have remotes within easy reach.
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post #25 of 77
5/18/09 at 5:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

For the record, I casually compared the new Samsung 58" 860 plasma to the beloved Kuro at Magnolia. The 860 was brighter, naturally sharper and offered better motion resolution. In an aerial view of a city, the Samsung offered greater clarity. Even so too with just a person's face. The Kuro seemed a bit mis-focused in comparison.

Both had comparable black levels in the subdued lighting environment. The Kuro had more accurate deep reds with the uncalibrated 860 being a bit orange.

Power efficiency: While the 860 screen was not as hot as the Kuro, it still got fairly warm.

With a MSRP of $3200 the 58" 860 deserves serious consideration. My preliminary finding is I would purchase the 860 over the Kuro, without even taking (its double) price into consideration.

Only one Amazon customer review so far:
"As good if not better than Pioneer Elite. Just a stunning image. Incredibly thin. Best electronics purchase I have ever made."

I wholeheartedly agree. Notice the 860 plasma and the 9000 series local-dimming LCD are being released last of the 209 models. Apparently Samsung saves its best for last. [IMG]http://www.*****************/trafficreport/img/3721/k08t1221bbuq/gdsmile.gif[/IMG]


I would vote for Samsung
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post #26 of 77
5/18/09 at 8:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

It sure is different, but HiFun (or w/e his name is) never fails to turn every thread into a Samsung LCD lovefest.

That is why I commented above regarding his comment of Samsung being "the best" with their frame interpolation.

Now that funny! Your infatuation with Pioneer still prevents you from being objective. Try reading my leading-the-charge (since the CES) against Samsung edge-lit LED pumping (dynamic backlighting).

Anyone should be able to see the clearer picture the 860 provides over the Kuro. The difference is all to easy to see in a direct side-by-side comparison.

Lets hope the increased resolving power "doesn't end up making everything look like video".
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post #27 of 77
5/18/09 at 9:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

I compared the new 63" which sat RIGHT NEXT to the 151, and they were both in torch mode. The Samsung was a tad brighter, but had less detail than the Elite, and the colors were much more natural looking on the Elite. The Elites superior contrast was evident, which would explain its greater detail.

Fanaticalism,
You really are clueless as the 860 is only available in 50 and 58 inches.
It would be nice for everyone involved if you would take a break from posting further misinformation.
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post #28 of 77
5/18/09 at 9:30pm
Yet proper tests and measurements continue to show that nothing beats the Kuro. These are facts rather than opinions. Move along...nothing to see here. Maybe next year...
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post #29 of 77
5/18/09 at 9:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcorwin View Post

Yet proper tests and measurements continue to show that nothing beats the Kuro. These are facts rather than opinions. Move along...nothing to see here. Maybe next year...

Umm, the proper test performed by CR last year showed Samsung beats kuro.
I have yet to see a "proper" test on the new Sammies.

As you said however, we can move along.
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post #30 of 77
5/18/09 at 9:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcorwin View Post

Yet proper tests and measurements continue to show that nothing beats the Kuro. These are facts rather than opinions. Move along...nothing to see here. Maybe next year...

Exactly.

although it would be nice to have a set this year that is actually a new groudbreaker, I really wish we could get some actual data to make this comparison other than the usual suspects claiming "it looked prettier in the store".

-Yawn- -Boooring-
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