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Best VP for Laserdisc playback?

post #1 of 301
5/18/09 at 11:14am
Thread Starter 
Hi,

I have a McIntosh MLD-7020 laserdisc player. Its a lightly modified Pioneer CLD-97. The mods I noticed so far are RF out for AC-3 and Digital Video Noise Reduction on/off switch (opposed to always "on" on CLD-97).

I have a few questions in my mind. I am not sure if they would bring any improvement to the picture quality but i will ask away anyway.

I will be buying a Denon AVP-A1HDCI pre-amp which uses a 3d none-adaptive comb filter and HQV Realta scaler & de-interlacer chips for VP.

Possible set-ups:

1. Connect MLD-7020 to AVP with Composite.

2. Connect MLD-7020 to AVP with S-Video.

3. Buy an Entech SVSI-1 2D Comb-filter(I have read that Entech is one of the best comb-filter ever made). Connect MLD-7020 to Entech with composite. Connect Entech to AVP with S-Video.

4. Buy a VP which is geared towards analog sources like LD players(mostlikely something from late 90' or early 00' i.e. Faroudja VRS) connect MLD to VP with composite .connect the VP to AVP with component.

5. Buy and Entech SVSI-1 and a VP.Connect MLD to Entech with composite. Connect Entech to VP with S-video. Connect VP to AVP with component.

I am almost certain that the first 2 will not improve the picture much due to the mediocre 3d comb filter used in the Denon AVP and McIntosh LD player.

3rd option could give promising results since entech is a very good comb filter and Denon's HQV realta implementation is a very fine VP for de-interlacing and scaling.

4th and 5th options ; I dont have much clue. seems like too much processing going on but those used VPs are not too expensive nowadays, if they are going to add anything i will give them a try.

final note: the value of the MLD-7020 is 600-800 USD. I know a good shape entech svsi-1 will not be less than 150 USD. those old VPs go for 150-350usd. all together 1000-1200 USD value(LD player + comb filter + VP)

if the combination of those above 2 or 3 aproaches close to 2000USD, I have seen several HLD-X9's go for 1700-1900+shipping. so they would not make much sence. Please make recommendations based on experiences with such electronics but not on theory and keep the cost accourding to the facts above.

thank you in advance
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post #2 of 301
5/18/09 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by uderman View Post

Hi,

I have a McIntosh MLD-7020 laserdisc player. Its a lightly modified Pioneer CLD-97. The mods I noticed so far are RF out for AC-3 and Digital Video Noise Reduction on/off switch (opposed to always "on" on CLD-97).

I have a few questions in my mind. I am not sure if they would bring any improvement to the picture quality but i will ask away anyway.


Give this thread a read (if you haven't already). Few players output "pure" composite.

I believe the final conclusion was X0-->SVCI-1-->Holo3Dgraph for the best possible signal path. Lots of comparisons between the X9 and X0 in that thread. Check post #80.

I started a thread just recently inquiring about comb filters, which beyond your choice of player is looking for essentially the same thing. Let's hope we get some responses. I've haven't seen mention of the SVCI-1 in a long time! Perhaps we can set up a power buy?
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post #3 of 301
5/18/09 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by uderman View Post

4. Buy a VP which is geared towards analog sources like LD players(mostlikely something from late 90' or early 00' i.e. Faroudja VRS) connect MLD to VP with composite .connect the VP to AVP with component.

I can state from experience that this is not the way to go. I thought the idea had some merit myself, and purchased an old Faroudja LD100 "line doubler" with the thought that it would have been better optimized for analog sources.

First off, this simple deinterlacer was the size and weight of an A/V receiver, and had a very loud fan. Deinterlacing quality was not particularly good on any laserdisc content I fed it. Modern chips are a lot more efficient and do at least as good a job on analog sources (usually better). The comb filter in it was pretty rudimentary, and the picture quite visibly lost detail when run through the LD100 in comparison in comparison to a straight signal from LD player to display.
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post #4 of 301
5/19/09 at 11:55am
I recently bought DVDO's Edge and have it hooked up to my Pioneer CLD-D704. Some improvement but not "knock your socks off". Hopefully with some calibration it will look really good.

Josh what settings do you use to get your DVDO process laserdisc? ie; mosquito NR, etc.
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post #5 of 301
5/20/09 at 8:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.master.dre View Post

Josh what settings do you use to get your DVDO process laserdisc? ie; mosquito NR, etc.

Mosquito NR has basically no effect on analog content, which should not have the type of blocking artifacts that the DVDO's filter is looking for. The DVDO doesn't touch chroma noise, which is Laserdisc's biggest problem.

It's been quite a while since I've last watched any LD content. As I last left it, I was just sending the signal straight through.
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post #6 of 301
5/20/09 at 1:00pm
The problem with many of the later Pioneer Elite players was the analog noise reduction was done in the Svideo domain. So in this case the Svideo output is better than the composite output. Being that the players internal comb filter has already split YC, that's the most direct output. The composite output is just a recombine of the YC so the damage has already been done.

I modified my CLD95 with a direct composite output before the internal comb filter. It made a difference. Later I tapped the composite digital after the internal TBC and reformatted it to the SMPTE 259 composite digital standard (yes there is a composite 143mbs SDI standard) which I then feed digitally into my decoder. This is the purest path you can possibly get. I also have a Digital Vision noise reducer which works wonders.

Path= CLD95 composite DIGITAL out > Innovision DX210 decoder to component SDI > Digital Vision DVNR1000 Image Processor (all SDI) > DVDO VP50pro SDI in to HDMI > projector.

I find that while laser disks have more random noise than DVDs there is a certian image quality that DVDs lack. Also keep in mind that video origionated material such as concerts are forever locked into NTSC. They were most likely recorded and mastered on 1inch analog tape. So a laser disk also being a direct color recording is as close as the consumer can get to the master. Any DVD of these shows came from a composite master and you are then at the mercy of the decoder quality used in the DVD authoring. Plus you now added MPEG noise to the composite video. Only when a FILM is re-transferred to a component video format does DVD outshine laserdisk.

DVDs of NTSC origionated material are inferior to their LAserdisk versions!
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post #7 of 301
5/21/09 at 2:06pm
Thread Starter 
so its y/c + dvnr then combine to composite and then 2d or 3d y/c seperation if s-video out is used?
what kind of y/c seperator pioneer use for the first y/c seperation before dvnr? is the tbc in pioneer ld players good? i have a mcintosh mld 7020 but its a pioneer cld 97 clone.
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post #8 of 301
5/21/09 at 5:29pm
...so its y/c + dvnr then combine to composite and then 2d or 3d y/c seperation....

No, going from Y/C (S-Video) to Composite is going backwards. Composite is where you add the C into the Y, which results in the Chroma spectra being interlaced with the upper end of the Luma spectra. That's why you need a comb filter when initially processing Composite, to "comb" out the Chroma. If you're at the Y/C stage, you want to go forward (upwards) to COMPONENT (YPrPb), then do your processing.
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post #9 of 301
5/21/09 at 10:55pm
I'm using a Pioneer CLD-HF9G (Japanese equivalent of CLD-99, Direct Composite with NR off) into a CVSI-1 into a Algolith Flea into a VP50Pro.

Looks beautiful except the CVSI-1 adds some strange blocks (either 4x4 or 8x8 pixels that appear as random noise) to parts of the image. I bought 2 SVSI-1 units used a while back but one was DOA and the other had a scrambled output. Will have to see if I can get them fixed someday.
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post #10 of 301
5/22/09 at 7:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd213 View Post

I'm using a Pioneer CLD-HF9G (Japanese equivalent of CLD-99, Direct Composite with NR off) into a CVSI-1 into a Algolith Flea into a VP50Pro.

Looks beautiful except the CVSI-1 adds some strange blocks (either 4x4 or 8x8 pixels that appear as random noise) to parts of the image. I bought 2 SVSI-1 units used a while back but one was DOA and the other had a scrambled output. Will have to see if I can get them fixed someday.

the CLD-99 is the worst offender when it comes to seperating Y/C.

as far as I can remember, the CLD-99 does 3D Y/C first , and does NR in composite again and goes back to Y/C.

so you have a real mess on your hands to keep Y/C seperate.
IVAR from Norway had a good report on this player on this forum a really long time ago , keep your hands off .


I had 3 CLD-99 here at one time, it's chroma noise it's one of the worst that I have ever seen

the only great player for LD playback is the HLD-X0.

with a little luck it can be bought 2nd hand for around $2500 in Hong Kong,
got one from there 2 years ago.

Michael
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post #11 of 301
5/22/09 at 7:37am
I have all NR and processing off. I've never used the CLD-99 so I don't know if it can also be turned off, but I didn't have any problem doing so with the CLD-HF9G.

I don't watch LD enough to shell out for the X0, although I've been considering an X9.
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post #12 of 301
5/22/09 at 7:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd213 View Post

I'm using a Pioneer CLD-HF9G (Japanese equivalent of CLD-99, Direct Composite with NR off) into a CVSI-1 into a Algolith Flea into a VP50Pro.

Looks beautiful except the CVSI-1 adds some strange blocks (either 4x4 or 8x8 pixels that appear as random noise) to parts of the image. I bought 2 SVSI-1 units used a while back but one was DOA and the other had a scrambled output. Will have to see if I can get them fixed someday.

I made some extensive test with the CVSI-1 , a Alchemy VRS and onboard comb filters, and the best result I got was with a HLD-X0's S-Video output.
might still have the files somewhere if interested.
used the Video Essentials LD.

Michael
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post #13 of 301
5/22/09 at 7:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd213 View Post

I have all NR and processing off. I've never used the CLD-99 so I don't know if it can also be turned off, but I didn't have any problem doing so with the CLD-HF9G.

I don't watch LD enough to shell out for the X0, although I've been considering an X9.


it doesnt matter if you use the NR or not, the signal goes through the chip anyway.

if you turn off NR, you have lots of chroma noise , the same amount as you get with the really cheap players. for me unaceptable.

btw, are there still A/V shops in Akihabara ?

I've heard that most of them closed a while ago.

Michael
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post #14 of 301
5/22/09 at 7:47am
The HF9G must be different then because I don't see any chroma noise, and the image quality is a huge step up from previous players I've used that didn't have Direct Composite. The player is regularly recommended on Japanese internet forums as well.

Of course there are still AV shops in Akihabara. It has either the nation's 1st or 2nd biggest Yodobashi Camera store, which is like 6 Best Buys stacked on top of each other. Sofmap also opened a new multifloor store there. There's also at least one high-end home theater store I know of, although they're too overpriced. LDs have been mostly cleaned out, although I've bought hundreds of discs from Akihabara in the past.
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post #15 of 301
5/22/09 at 7:49am
I found the files, I'm doing an MPEG2 encode right now,

if anyone is interested, contact me for the download link

Michael
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post #16 of 301
5/22/09 at 8:44am
ok, did some screengrabs.

Entech,Alchemy, and S-Video HLD-X0


enjoy

Michael
LL
LL
LL
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post #17 of 301
5/22/09 at 8:46am
the X9 is slighty better than the HLD-X0 when HR setting is selected, but only on posted test.

Michael
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post #18 of 301
5/22/09 at 2:00pm
This thread has brought up a lot of memories of me trying to squeeze out the best image I could from my LD collection as I transitioned to a digital projector vs. my Sony XBR tube TV (still one great picture).

Unfortunately, my entire home theater is currently stored and won't get unpacked for a while, but I do have a question...

I have been on the look-out for a Entech SVSI-1 for a while now and always seem to be a day late or a dollar short.

I am curious to know if I can't find an SVSI-1 but do happen upon a Audio Alchemy Visual Reality Engine (VRE) 1.0 which one would provide the better image when converting a composite feed coming off of a LD player into a modern day processor?

Thoughts?
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post #19 of 301
5/22/09 at 2:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmoryS View Post

This thread has brought up a lot of memories of me trying to squeeze out the best image I could from my LD collection as I transitioned to a digital projector vs. my Sony XBR tube TV (still one great picture).

Unfortunately, my entire home theater is currently stored and won't get unpacked for a while, but I do have a question...

I have been on the look-out for a Entech SVSI-1 for a while now and always seem to be a day late or a dollar short.

I am curious to know if I can't find an SVSI-1 but do happen upon a Audio Alchemy Visual Reality Engine (VRE) 1.0 which one would provide the better image when converting a composite feed coming off of a LD player into a modern day processor?

Thoughts?



look at the images 2 posts up, the answer is there

Michael
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post #20 of 301
5/23/09 at 3:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd213 View Post

The HF9G must be different then because I don't see any chroma noise, and the image quality is a huge step up from previous players I've used that didn't have Direct Composite. The player is regularly recommended on Japanese internet forums as well.

every LD player has chroma noise in one way or another.

highly saturated colors (red especially) are really bad on some players.

I have attached two pictures

one from a European PAL/NTSC combo player CLD-2950
the other from a HLD-X0

see the difference in chroma noise ?


Michael
LL
LL
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post #21 of 301
5/23/09 at 3:29am
The reds look fine with the HF9G in my setup.
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post #22 of 301
5/23/09 at 5:49am
deleted v
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post #23 of 301
5/23/09 at 12:02pm
nidi: thanks for the pics--very informative. Its mindboggling how much better the X0 is!
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post #24 of 301
5/23/09 at 12:05pm
Quote:
Mosquito NR has basically no effect on analog content, which should not have the type of blocking artifacts that the DVDO's filter is looking for.

This is not completely true. The basic noise reduction process in a Mosquito will reduce both chroma and luminance noise in an analog source.

And if the analog signal is output via S-Video into any kind of analog-to-digital process (deinterlacing, scaling, etc.) and THEN run into the Mosquito the artifacts resulting from most Y/C filters will be reduced by the digital artifact processing in the Mosquito.

I used to run my Mosquito with LD and found it helpful in both areas. The settings do need to be used carefully.

Quote:
the best result I got was with a HLD-X0's S-Video output.

This is the very first time I know of that ANYONE with an X0 has said this. Did you use the BNC output of the X0? With good connectors and cabling? On a display able to resolve all of the detail, color, and noise issues?
Everyone else who has seen the X0 has stated a clear preference for its BNC composite output over anything else, including the model's S-Video output (I would probably prefer the S-Video output of the X9, or maybe even the 95, over S-Video from the X0 if I had to use S-Video from laserdisc).

The BNC composite of the X0 is the only "pure" LD signal available from latter-day laserdisc players. Almost by definition it would be the best opportunity to obtain the highest-resolution, lowest-noise and least-ringing from laserdiscs.
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post #25 of 301
5/23/09 at 2:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post

This is not completely true. The basic noise reduction process in a Mosquito will reduce both chroma and luminance noise in an analog source.

And if the analog signal is output via S-Video into any kind of analog-to-digital process (deinterlacing, scaling, etc.) and THEN run into the Mosquito the artifacts resulting from most Y/C filters will be reduced by the digital artifact processing in the Mosquito.

I used to run my Mosquito with LD and found it helpful in both areas. The settings do need to be used carefully.



This is the very first time I know of that ANYONE with an X0 has said this. Did you use the BNC output of the X0? With good connectors and cabling? On a display able to resolve all of the detail, color, and noise issues?
Everyone else who has seen the X0 has stated a clear preference for its BNC composite output over anything else, including the model's S-Video output (I would probably prefer the S-Video output of the X9, or maybe even the 95, over S-Video from the X0 if I had to use S-Video from laserdisc).

The BNC composite of the X0 is the only "pure" LD signal available from latter-day laserdisc players. Almost by definition it would be the best opportunity to obtain the highest-resolution, lowest-noise and least-ringing from laserdiscs.

to which device do you want to feed the Composite ?

all external comb filters people rave about (Faroudja,Entech,Alchemy,...)

are worse than the S-Video output, didn't I prove that in the pics ?

even with a Mitsubishi S=VHS VCR with the latest 3D comb filter you
don't get such a clean picture.

if there would be an external 'latest technology' 3D comb filter with great
internal signal routing, then it might be slighly better,
but a 2D comb filter just doesn't cut it nowadays, too many hanging dots
and crawl and not enough detail.

the X9 is much worse in chroma noise than the X0, even with NR on.


Michael
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post #26 of 301
5/23/09 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post

nidi: thanks for the pics--very informative. Its mindboggling how much better the X0 is!


I do have moving test patterns , contact me for link

Michael
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post #27 of 301
5/24/09 at 9:18am
Quote:


a 2D comb filter just doesn't cut it nowadays, too many hanging dots
and crawl and not enough detail.

Don't watch the test patterns. Watch deinterlaced and scaled movies!


1 - you will almost NEVER see dot crawl.
2 - ALL 3-D Y/C filters drop to 2-D performance for much, if not most, of any movie.
3 - ALL 3-D filtering resultings in lost resolution and grim checkerboarding once it is deinterlaced and scaled.

The Composite output should be input to a good 2-D Y/C filter. And then into the rest of the chain.

Quote:


all external comb filters people rave about (Faroudja,Entech,Alchemy,...)
are worse than the S-Video output, didn't I prove that in the pics ?

No. I don't know what was involved in those pictures.

Quote:


the X9 is much worse in chroma noise than the X0, even with NR on.

Not necessarily. The X9 can easily be set up to show less chroma noise than the X0, using any outputs from either model. BUT - there are consequences that are more deleterious than the reduction in chroma noise. These include loss of resolution, ringing, luminance noise (due to processing circuitry), and loss of color saturation and fidelity.

The correct statement would be that the X0 beats the X9 at all parameters when both models are set up for optimum overall results and their best respective outputs are used.
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post #28 of 301
5/24/09 at 11:21am
Completely off-topic, but isn't it so much more fun to talk about the essence of video processing, about comb filters, about laserdiscs, about a 80 lbs Pioneer player instead of nowadays usual topics like HDMI handshakes or HDCP issues ?

As a HLD-X9 user I'm really enjoying the current topics on our board.
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post #29 of 301
5/24/09 at 1:43pm
Quote:


isn't it so much more fun to talk about the essence of video processing, about comb filters, about laserdiscs, about a 80 lbs pioneer player instead of nowadays usual topics like hdmi handshakes or hdcp issues ?

absolutely!!!
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post #30 of 301
5/24/09 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

Completely off-topic, but isn't it so much more fun to talk about the essence of video processing, about comb filters, about laserdiscs, about a 80 lbs Pioneer player instead of nowadays usual topics like HDMI handshakes or HDCP issues ?

As a HLD-X9 user I'm really enjoying the current topics on our board.

Agree completely! I love the thought of squeezing every last drop of potential performance out of gear. And I love expanding my knowledge in topics like these!

I nearly bought a X0 to back up the Star Wars Trilogy, but abandoned that when I learned about the X0 Project.

I'd love to get to the bottom of which output of the X0 provides the best signal. I'd always heard it was the BNC composite. Are there any pics of that out through outboard processors vs the S-video? Is that how you took your pics nidi?
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