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Best VP for Laserdisc playback? - Page 8

post #211 of 301
Much of this is over my head. I have a very mediocre Panasonic LX-600 which will have composite out feeding a Denon 2310CI, which has at least some of the Anchor Bay chip active. Does anyone know what comb filter is active in this receiver?

Has anyone tried 1080p/24Hz from an LD? Are results encouraging at all, or are there lots of bad edits and messed up cadences?

Just curious.
post #212 of 301
Thread Starter 
I contacted Denon for AVP-A1HDCI/AVR-5308CI, they both have none-adaptive 3D comb-filter(nothing to write home about). From this I dont think the rest of the denon line-up has anything better(although your 2310 is newer). the abt-2010 on that denon is decent for de-interlacing/scaling but it doesnt have any adjustments other than enhancement 0-10 option.
post #213 of 301
FWIW - I have found years ago that any 3-D Y/C filtering will produce checkerboard and other artifacts when the signal is subsequently run through any digital processing, especially deinterlacing and/or scaling.

The best results can be obtained with an excellent 2-D filter.

Even the best 3-D filters operate in 2-D mode much (if not most) of the time due to the amount of continual motion in most contemporary movies and video. It is only with stopped pans and little motion in each frame that 3-D filtering is actually used.

Yes, you will see better separation on test patterns with 3-D filtering, but that's because the patterns are perfectly static. That doesn't happen in real life. Regardless, the artifacts caused by 3-D + processing are far more objectionable than those resulting from 2-D filtering.

Don't get too caught up in and concerned by the technical performance claims.
post #214 of 301
Thread Starter 
I meant to say Denon recievers/processors have mediocre comb filters none-adaptive means locked-to 3D mode only? In respect to what you said above means poor results in real life.

My McIntosh MLD-7020 (Pio CLD-97 Clone) has a 2D y/c seperator. I also have an Entech CVSI-1 component integrator which has composite in component out(480i only) and incorporates a 2D y/c seperator.

I want to buy an outboard video processor mainly for LD playback on my Pio 141FD plasma monitor.

It seems like the biggest improvement will come from upgrading my laserdisc player(I have HLD-X0 in mind but cant buy until next year)

I have Crystalio II 3300 and Lumagen XE? which one would you go with?
post #215 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by uderman View Post
I meant to say Denon recievers/processors have mediocre comb filters none-adaptive means locked-to 3D mode only? In respect to what you said above means poor results in real life.

My McIntosh MLD-7020 (Pio CLD-97 Clone) has a 2D y/c seperator. I also have an Entech CVSI-1 component integrator which has composite in component out(480i only) and incorporates a 2D y/c seperator.

I want to buy an outboard video processor mainly for LD playback on my Pio 141FD plasma monitor.

It seems like the biggest improvement will come from upgrading my laserdisc player(I have HLD-X0 in mind but cant buy until next year)

I have Crystalio II 3300 and Lumagen XE? which one would you go with?

The Crystalio II is as good as an HLD-X0 filter, but you need to tweak it in the menu using the DVE LD.

I still use the X0 and C2 in my daily captures. can't be beat.

Michael
post #216 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by uderman View Post

I have Crystalio II 3300 and Lumagen XE? which one would you go with?

I have not seen anything that provides as overall a high level of LD playback as a HLD-X0 >> Entech >> Lumagen Radiance. No ringing, no fringing, no shifting, noise and artifacts at minimum.

The BNC output from the X0 should be used with good connectors and cable; no BNC/RCA adapters should be used. The Entech output should run into one of the S-Video inputs on the Lumagen. There will be no need for any signal manipulation except for Black Level and, possibly, a very slight touch on Color and Hue (none on mine).

I've not seen this particular setup head to head with Crystalio, but I have seen it with a Lumagen HDQ and the Lumagen was better overall. The Radiance is a big step beyond that.

Ref.: G-90 @ 1080p72.
post #217 of 301
Thread Starter 
i emailed lumagen to find out about the y/c seperator used in radiance. this is the responce i got;

The Radiance used an excellent TV decoder from Analog Devices (ADV7403). It has a very good 2D filter for composite sources, and in comparisons with a 3D TV decoder we also looked at it actually outperformed the 3D CHroma filter and had none of the 3D filters artifacts that shwoed up when there was motion in the image.


I have the entech composite to component integrator. do you think it is as good as the composite to svideo version?
post #218 of 301
My experience with the quality of the Radiance filter is exactly what your response described. And also underscores what I have long said about 2D vs. 3D filters ...
And some of this was before I used and/or owned any Lumagen product. As a matter of fact it was my repeated attempts with many devices and cards (Holo 3D, anyone?) to eliminate the artifacts that led to the Lumagen.

I saw no differences in the image quality between the Composite >> S-Video unit compared to the Composite >> Component unit.

What I did see, however, were some sparklies in certain high-contrast border situations on a few laserdiscs. There have been one or two other AVS people that have also seen the same thing. Attempts made to tweak Black, Contrast, Sharpness and/or Noise Reduction levels made no difference. Neither did changing cables, or changing players (HLD-X0 and HLD-X9.)

I'd stick with the Composite >> S-Video unit.
post #219 of 301
I'm comepletly ignorant when it comes to ld, so bare with me. The only time I ever saw one is when I was a kid my dad borrowed on from his friend in the early-mid 80's and I remember it looking outstanding compared to the beta and vhs.

I'm very nterested in it though, I want to pick up as much good quality content as I can in different formats. I just picked up a bunch of hd dvds and I've been thinking about laserdisc for a long while. I know of course they don't make them anymore but what can you guys tell me about the players.

What would be a really good quality player to buy for around a grand or less. How does the image compare to dvds, blurays? Is it actually hd? What outputs are the best to use? How is the quality measured 720, 1080? Can it be ran thru a modern video processor and avr and hdtv? And does it look good? What are some does and don't for incorporating into a modern himetheatr and connecting to modern gear? Any other info would be great. Thanks guys.
post #220 of 301
Thread Starter 
there is about 57000 titles ever released and less than half of this is US releases and the rest is mostly Japanese releases.

full screen lds are similar to dvd quality in resolution

wide screen lds are lesses than dvd but much better than vhs

in audio quality almost every titles is better than dvd, some cases better than blu-ray,hd dvds.

the form of picture is analog so it shows more film grain, if you are a grain hater, you wont like this format. generaly picture is soft. some believe its truer to film.

about 5000 releases never released on dvd,or bd,hd dvd or different cut, version. such as Star Wars 4-6 and 1 are uncut, unaltrered. E.T is uncut with Harrison Ford sceen.

I buy 1.33:1 full screen movies(not full screen editions) which are generaly older movies, concerts, music videos. Also buy Tv shows in 1.33:1 (almost all are) Star Trek, X-files etc..

around a thousand you can buy Pioneer CLD-97($400-600), McIntosh MLD-7020(same as CLD-97, $500-800) Pioneer LD-S9($900-1200), Pioneer LD-S1($300-800), CLD-R7G($700-$1000) the first 2 generates the least video noise but later ones produce sharper image(more digitized)

a CLD-97 with a outboard video processor may likely give better picture than the rest.


for HD-DVDs Toshiba Xa2, Onkyo 805hd and Integra dvs-8.8 are the best players. the later two are xa2 clones with superior software and built quality(also very rare)

if you are interested in dead hd formats, look into D-Theater, D-VHS. these are magnetic tapes that can show 1080i picture with DTS sound.
post #221 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by uderman View Post

there is about 57000 titles ever released and less than half of this is US releases and the rest is mostly Japanese releases.

full screen lds are similar to dvd quality in resolution

wide screen lds are lesses than dvd but much better than vhs

in audio quality almost every titles is better than dvd, some cases better than blu-ray,hd dvds.

the form of picture is analog so it shows more film grain, if you are a grain hater, you wont like this format. generaly picture is soft. some believe its truer to film.

about 5000 releases never released on dvd,or bd,hd dvd or different cut, version. such as Star Wars 4-6 and 1 are uncut, unaltrered. E.T is uncut with Harrison Ford sceen.

I buy 1.33:1 full screen movies(not full screen editions) which are generaly older movies, concerts, music videos. Also buy Tv shows in 1.33:1 (almost all are) Star Trek, X-files etc..

around a thousand you can buy Pioneer CLD-97($400-600), McIntosh MLD-7020(same as CLD-97, $500-800) Pioneer LD-S9($900-1200), Pioneer LD-S1($300-800), CLD-R7G($700-$1000) the first 2 generates the least video noise but later ones produce sharper image(more digitized)

a CLD-97 with a outboard video processor may likely give better picture than the rest.

for HD-DVDs Toshiba Xa2, Onkyo 805hd and Integra dvs-8.8 are the best players. the later two are xa2 clones with superior software and built quality(also very rare)

if you are interested in dead hd formats, look into D-Theater, D-VHS. these are magnetic tapes that can show 1080i picture with DTS sound.

This is some interesting stuff. I was checking out eBay and noticed some ld players play dvds and cd also and have digital coax and optical out, are some of the laserdisc converted to digital or are those outputs cor the dvds? If they are for the ld is that the way to go or is it best to stick with high quality component cables? You said that some are are equal to or better sounding that BLURAY even, how is that possible with dolby? What audio formats do they come besides DD. What about widespread, you say that full screen is better quality? Tears unfortunate since you won't get the entire picture. Why are full screen better? Can you play Japanese ld on U.S. ld's? Is there any quality difference? What about the ld players, is there a big different e in PQ between the cheap players and expensive e players? What is the best way to hook it up in your home theatre to get the best picture? Ie: what output do you want to use to the avr and what output would you want to use to the Television? Would you want to keep it component all the way? Will a new digital video processor work or would you need to get an older analog video processor?
post #222 of 301
There are FAQs about this kind of thing.

Audio on LaserDisc is, for most discs pressed after 1985, a very high quality analog FM stereo track plus a CD-style PCM digital audio track. The PCM audio can be output through coaxial or optical SPDIF, or converted to analog & output from the standard rex/white audio jacks. Although on most discs the two sets of channels carry the same soundtrack, on some the digital & analog channels are different. This can be commentary, separate soundtrack, dual language, or the like. On some later LDs, the left analog audio channel was replaced with a carrier wave encoded with Dolby Digital AC-3 5.1 audio, which requires special hardware to demodulate for modern receivers or processors. On a few later LDs, the PCM digital audio is replaced with dts 5.1 audio, which can be passed out of the player & into a receiver or processor via the SPDIF output, just like PCM.

All NTSC LDs will play on an American LD player. This is all American & Japanese discs, as well as discs from Taiwan, Hong-Kong, & Korea, & a handful of European discs. Most European players will play both PAL & NTSC discs, but the selection in PAL is very small. There are also a few Japanese players which will play both NTSC discs & MUSE discs, which are HDTV in an analog format. Many LD players also play CDs ; the exceptions are early machines which will not play digital audio, & a few high-end machines. A few LD players also play DVDs, but they are mostly mediocre in both LD & DVD modes. Be aware that the component video outputs on LD/DVD combination players are only useful for DVD playback. In general, the most useful video output is the composite output, since LDs are recorded in a broadcast-quality composite format. A few players have high-quality Y/C separators, but in general the S-Video output is not very useful.

Almost all LDs are 4:3 aspect ratio, so a widescreen movie will suffer in terms of resolution, compared to an anamorphic DVD, which allots more scan lines per picture height. Therefore, the best material to watch from LDs is native Academy Ratio, such as TV, music videos, animation, &c, which uses the full height of the screen. Nobody advocates watching widescreen movies cropped to fit the TV ratio, although many older releases were issued in this format, & sometimes that is the only way to obtain a particular film.

There is a wide range in performance of players, which does not necessarily correlate with price. More expensive players tend to have more features. There is at least one person who claims the best video quality is to be had with a very cheap player, the Pioneer CLD-S201, which has no Y/C separation, video noise reduction, or other digital processing on board. (It uses a CCD bucket-brigade analog timebase corrector.)
post #223 of 301
Thread Starter 
Laserdiscs did not have region coding or macrovision. as long as your tv/display/player decoder NTSC(japan, usa) or PAL(europe) matches the laserdisc being played (i.e NTSC Japanese LD on NTSC US TV), you wont have trouble watching them.

other than about 10 laserdiscs(which are extremely expensive now), there was never a anamorphic (in other words "enhanced for widescreen tvs") laserdisc. so widescreen laserdiscs have black bars above and below the picture. Ld has a resolution of 420 analog lines(480i is displayed on tv) so about a 100 pixels or so from top and bottom are black bars reducing visible video to less than 400 pixels. on full screen all 480 pixels are used. ld era tv shows in original are shot in 4:3 ratio so you have the full resolution and no loss from convertion.

ntsc laserdiscs can carry 2 pairs of audio tracks. left and right analog, left and right digital. analog tracks are similar to Hi-Fi VHS or better. digital tracks are same encoding as todays music CDs. uncompressed in PCM form. now a ld can substitute one of the analog tracks for Dolby Digital(i.e L cd is mono commentary track, L ch is 5.1 DD). Both of the digital tracks combined can be used for DTS 5.1 as well. DTS on ld is 1.5mbps in bitrate which is twice of dvds. there are some blu-ray discs with DD only. an LD with DTS or 2ch uncompressed PCM Dolby Surround can will sound better.

laserdisc video is composite in nature. there are some players with s-video out however none with component or higher. those combo players do not output ld picture tru component(dvd only)

you want to buy a pioneer player. models numbers are 5xx,6xx, 7xx and Elite line-up. higher the number better the picture will be. you dont want any lesser than 7 series. ld picture heavly depends on players capabilities and good quality cables.

you can use a newer generation video processor. modern flat panels displays do a poor job on processing analog signals. other than pioneer plasmas, none will give you satisfactory picture quality. a video processor can improve the picture quality but you have to know what to expect. LD picture can match dvd on full screen content on very good equipment but that about it.

japanese lds will have japanese subtitles burned on image(can not remove) lds have no subtitle option other than close captioning. foreign movies from foreign countries will not have english subtitle options. US lds will have eng subs burned on image.

older ld player do not have dolby digital out(can be modified)

collecting lds is addicting but a pointless hobby. I am in the process of spending 4000+ us dollars on a video processor and 4000+ us dollars on a new laserdisc player(and already spent thousands for what i own) which will not give me any better picture than $80 dollar magnavox blu-ray player. but i just cant stop myself
post #224 of 301
^
That last line is so true. I have limited myself to a very mediocre Panasonic LD-600, with some nice DTS and criterion LDs. I also have the "faces" Star Wars set, so I can one day show my kids the real version. (yes, I know they're on DVD now, but LD is so much cooler!)

I've also gotten burned, shelling out $ for a CAV version of Aliens that now has a nice sheen of laser rot.
post #225 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by uderman View Post

Laserdiscs did not have region coding or macrovision. as long as your tv/display/player decoder NTSC(japan, usa) or PAL(europe) matches the laserdisc being played (i.e NTSC Japanese LD on NTSC US TV), you wont have trouble watching them.

other than about 10 laserdiscs(which are extremely expensive now), there was never a anamorphic (in other words "enhanced for widescreen tvs") laserdisc. so widescreen laserdiscs have black bars above and below the picture. Ld has a resolution of 420 analog lines(480i is displayed on tv) so about a 100 pixels or so from top and bottom are black bars reducing visible video to less than 400 pixels. on full screen all 480 pixels are used. ld era tv shows in original are shot in 4:3 ratio so you have the full resolution and no loss from convertion.

ntsc laserdiscs can carry 2 pairs of audio tracks. left and right analog, left and right digital. analog tracks are similar to Hi-Fi VHS or better. digital tracks are same encoding as todays music CDs. uncompressed in PCM form. now a ld can substitute one of the analog tracks for Dolby Digital(i.e L cd is mono commentary track, L ch is 5.1 DD). Both of the digital tracks combined can be used for DTS 5.1 as well. DTS on ld is 1.5mbps in bitrate which is twice of dvds. there are some blu-ray discs with DD only. an LD with DTS or 2ch uncompressed PCM Dolby Surround can will sound better.

laserdisc video is composite in nature. there are some players with s-video out however none with component or higher. those combo players do not output ld picture tru component(dvd only)

you want to buy a pioneer player. models numbers are 5xx,6xx, 7xx and Elite line-up. higher the number better the picture will be. you dont want any lesser than 7 series. ld picture heavly depends on players capabilities and good quality cables.

you can use a newer generation video processor. modern flat panels displays do a poor job on processing analog signals. other than pioneer plasmas, none will give you satisfactory picture quality. a video processor can improve the picture quality but you have to know what to expect. LD picture can match dvd on full screen content on very good equipment but that about it.

japanese lds will have japanese subtitles burned on image(can not remove) lds have no subtitle option other than close captioning. foreign movies from foreign countries will not have english subtitle options. US lds will have eng subs burned on image.

older ld player do not have dolby digital out(can be modified)

collecting lds is addicting but a pointless hobby. I am in the process of spending 4000+ us dollars on a video processor and 4000+ us dollars on a new laserdisc player(and already spent thousands for what i own) which will not give me any better picture than $80 dollar magnavox blu-ray player. but i just cant stop myself

I was reading about laserdisc on Wikipedia and if mentioned that the first laserdisc to be released in 6.1 Dolby digital EX surround was star wars episode 1 in 1999 in japan, bug it dosnt say anything further about 6.1, hoe does that sound and are there many movies with it? Also I just found out pioneer just stopped making ld, Jan of 09! I had no idea. Are the new ones better than the older ones probably?
post #226 of 301
Sorry about my spelling, my first question was are there many movies made with 6.1, are they as available, and how do they sound compared to the DD?
post #227 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeydrunk View Post

Sorry about my spelling, my first question was are there many movies made with 6.1, are they as available, and how do they sound compared to the DD?

The "6.1" in this case is Dolby Digital AC-3.
6.1 & 7.1 soundtracks, in AC-3 or dts ("ES" or "EX" flavours), are available on some DVDs. They are too scarce on LD to be worth more than a mention.

Again, the standard soundtrack on LD is not Dolby Digital anything. It is high-fidelity analog FM stereo, plus CD-style PCM (uncompressed) digital stereo. Dolby Digital & dts are options, & not very common ones.
post #228 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheer Lunacy View Post

The "6.1" in this case is Dolby Digital AC-3.
6.1 & 7.1 soundtracks, in AC-3 or dts ("ES" or "EX" flavours), are available on some DVDs. They are too scarce on LD to be worth more than a mention.

Again, the standard soundtrack on LD is not Dolby Digital anything. It is high-fidelity analog FM stereo

I've always been curious, how does the analog tracks of LDs compare to other analog sources such as Hi-Fi VHS and records, assuming a well-mastered LD? Haven't really listed to many analog tracks to form an opinion of my own.
post #229 of 301
Hi-Fi VHS was an FM modulated signal far superior to analog LD tracks. Most used a noise reduction process called "CX".
post #230 of 301
My setup is X9 (composite) -> Entech CVSI-1 (component) -> CII. I have never noticed any of the aforementioned edge luminance issues reported with the Entech component model. My experience is similar to that of Hunters (I think we're both using CRT PJs, too).

I have tested every method of connectivity with this setup (with and without the Entech). The above produces the most satisfactory results. The CII's Y/C separation filter produces very similar results, as does the Y/C filter in a Marantz D-VHS deck (JVC 40K clone).
post #231 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ View Post
Much of this is over my head. I have a very mediocre Panasonic LX-600 which will have composite out feeding a Denon 2310CI, which has at least some of the Anchor Bay chip active. Does anyone know what comb filter is active in this receiver?

Has anyone tried 1080p/24Hz from an LD? Are results encouraging at all, or are there lots of bad edits and messed up cadences?

Just curious.
With the HLD-X9 and a VP50Pro, I generally get good results with 1080p24 for films on LD. There are occaisionally some bad edits though, especially in a couple anime discs I have, but most fare pretty well.
post #232 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd213 View Post
With the HLD-X9 and a VP50Pro, I generally get good results with 1080p24 for films on LD. There are occaisionally some bad edits though, especially in a couple anime discs I have, but most fare pretty well.
Wouldn't it be better to use a HQV chip to deinterlace Anime discs, since the cadence is different to normal films?

Michael
post #233 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by nidi View Post

Wouldn't it be better to use a HQV chip to deinterlace Anime discs, since the cadence is different to normal films?

In what way? Yes, some scenes are animated "on twos" or "on threes", but virtually all LD anime (excepting Chojuu Densetsu Gestalt) is shot on 16mm or 35mm film at 24fps.
I have found that TV anime is much more subject to bad edits than OVA material. This is one reason I am irritated at my CRT HDTV — although there is an option to turn off cadence detection (since the display scans at 60i anyway, it's not really needed), it doesn't actually seem to be effective on the composite inputs at least, & a bad edit in the video causes several frames worth of stuttering. Reversed field dominance is not a pretty thing to watch!

Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ View Post

Hi-Fi VHS was an FM modulated signal far superior to analog LD tracks. Most used a noise reduction process called "CX".

Not true at all. LD analog sound is FM with a wider deviation, better frequency response, less wow & flutter (ie better timebase stability), & better signal-to-noise ratio than VHS Hi-Fi or its Beta equivalent. Also, it never suffered from the nasty buzz VHS Hi-Fi is prone to in case of degraded tape or bad tracking.
LD analog audio is arguably the highest-fidelity analog audio ever in a consumer product. Unfortunately, many later LD players don't have very good analog audio output circuitry.
post #234 of 301
You say newer models don't have as good analog audio circuitry in your opinion. But don't the newer ones have better picture? I'm in the market for a player and I would be running it through my Onkyo txnr 1008 to a 60' LG plasma. What kind if ld player should I get. I think the turn on in a ld, for me Is sharp film style picture(grainy but Sharp). So is it true that the newer ones look more digital, less grain? That would be more like a dvd wich isn't what I want, but I also dont want grainy and blurry like a vhs or beta. Also, what about sound? Older or newer player? Or does it matter more on wich ld you play. What specs and options do u look for when buying one.
post #235 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheer Lunacy View Post

In what way? Yes, some scenes are animated "on twos" or "on threes", but virtually all LD anime (excepting Chojuu Densetsu Gestalt) is shot on 16mm or 35mm film at 24fps.

Yeah, for some reason (probably because of the differing number of cels per second as you imply) a lot of people have the impression that anime always uses weird cadences like 3:2:3:2:2 or 8:7 or whatever, like in the cadence tests some calibration discs have. Pretty sure I've never actually seen anything like that in real life since as you say, anime was shot on film until the late 90's/early 2000's. There were a few digitally-animated anime (often done at 30fps) series that were released to LD in its twilight years, such as Mata Mata Saber Marionette J and Saber Marionette J to X. AIC and possibly some other studios also animated quite a few shows that had digital openings/endings while the actual episodes were still done on traditional cels, like Bubblegum Crisis 2040.



Quote:


Not true at all. LD analog sound is FM with a wider deviation, better frequency response, less wow & flutter (ie better timebase stability), & better signal-to-noise ratio than VHS Hi-Fi or its Beta equivalent. Also, it never suffered from the nasty buzz VHS Hi-Fi is prone to in case of degraded tape or bad tracking.
LD analog audio is arguably the highest-fidelity analog audio ever in a consumer product.

Yeah, I kinda figured as much. Good to hear, although I wish some of the old concerts I have were available on something other than VHS...

Quote:


Unfortunately, many later LD players don't have very good analog audio output circuitry.

Hmm, I hope this doesn't include the HLD-X9...
post #236 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeydrunk View Post

What kind if ld player should I get. I think the turn on in a ld, for me Is sharp film style picture(grainy but Sharp). So is it true that the newer ones look more digital, less grain? That would be more like a dvd wich isn't what I want, but I also dont want grainy and blurry like a vhs or beta.

On most discs it depends, of course, on your choice of programming you will be listening to the digital stereo track anyway. My personal choice is the Pioneer CLD-D704, or its clones, which performs well & is relatively new (less likely to break down, easier to get parts for), but as is one of the later players it does employ extensive digital video processing. I tend to operate mine with the digital video noise reduction turned off.

Your ideal player is probably a Pioneer HLD-X0, but those cost thousands of dollars. An LD-S2, or possibly even LD-S1, with their good analog noise figures, could also fit your requirements, & are much less expensive, but you would have to have the modification done to put in an AC-3 RF output jack if you wanted to access the Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtracks. (The S1 also does not have a digital audio output jack as-built, although that could be added as well.) Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Sony HIL-C2EX has a "direct" video out BNC, for composite video without digital processing.
post #237 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheer Lunacy View Post

In what way? Yes, some scenes are animated "on twos" or "on threes", but virtually all LD anime (excepting Chojuu Densetsu Gestalt) is shot on 16mm or 35mm film at 24fps.
I have found that TV anime is much more subject to bad edits than OVA material. This is one reason I am irritated at my CRT HDTV although there is an option to turn off cadence detection (since the display scans at 60i anyway, it's not really needed), it doesn't actually seem to be effective on the composite inputs at least, & a bad edit in the video causes several frames worth of stuttering. Reversed field dominance is not a pretty thing to watch!


Not true at all. LD analog sound is FM with a wider deviation, better frequency response, less wow & flutter (ie better timebase stability), & better signal-to-noise ratio than VHS Hi-Fi or its Beta equivalent. Also, it never suffered from the nasty buzz VHS Hi-Fi is prone to in case of degraded tape or bad tracking.
LD analog audio is arguably the highest-fidelity analog audio ever in a consumer product. Unfortunately, many later LD players don't have very good analog audio output circuitry.

I stand corrected. Why would they need something like "CX" noise reduction if that were the case?
post #238 of 301
Just because an audio format has good fidelity doesn't mean a noise-reduction scheme isn't useful. The purpose of using CX on LD was to expand the dynamic range, mostly. VHS & Beta FM audio used Dolby-B or something, I think ; there were some LPs pressed at that time with DBX noise reduction, & one of the forum members here swears by using DBX with the old Japanese 12-bit nonlinear PCM adaptors for recording digital audio on video tape. Actually CX was originally developed for LPs as well — it stands for "Compatible eXpansion", because unlike a lot of noise-reduction modes it doesn't sound particularly distorted if listened to without the proper decoder.

It was found that using the full ±100 kHz deviation of the left analog audio channel, in a scene with saturated colour, would result in a degree of interference between the audio carrier & the chroma subcarrier (which beats against the video FM carrier, producing high-level sidebands). Under unfavourable conditions, this could cause a beat to appear in the picture, or a buzz in the audio. As a result, it became standard mastering practice to limit the picture saturation & the audio amplitude. The CX expansion (which was quite mild, several dB below the original CBS LP specification) helped to compensate for the resulting loss of dynamic range — as the amplitude-to-deviation ratio remained as large as ever, the signal-to-noise ratio was still excellent.

The CX gain-riding method only works if the channel separation is not extreme, so the system is not used on LDs which have significantly different material on the two audio channels. This includes both AC-3 LDs, which use the left audio carrier for QPSK digital data, & discs which have alternate audio of some other kind. I have several of each, & can attest that non-CX-encoded LD audio sounds very good.
post #239 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

I'll say it again and won't back down. Analog NTSC color playback from a mechanical system is NOT possible without some form of subcarrier jitter correction. Now present technical documentation to the contrary or shut up! It does no good to spread this misinformation.

I feel the need to respond to this, although it is more than a year old. This statement, as well as an earlier one by the same poster that the LD modulating frequencies lock in a 46 dB signal-to-noise ratio, is incorrect. The differences arise from behaviour differences between magnetic tape, the author's reference point, & the optical disc system.

I have in my possession, & will gladly post scans of, MCA DiscoVision technical papers originally published in the IEEE Transactions on Consumer Electronics, demonstrating that it was possible to obtain full quality colour playback from LD using a tangent servo driven by the phase error of the recovered subcarrier with respect to the reference crystal onboard the LD player. All early players implemented this system. In fact, with the use of a pilot tone, the tangent servo technique was good enough to reduce resampling phase jitter to tolerable levels for MUSE decoding. It is also worth mentioning, if only for curiosity's sake, that Pioneer did use an analog CCD bucket-brigade timebase corrector in some of its lower-end players. This was possible because of the extremely low inherent timebase error of the recovered signal the required correction window was less than one line.
post #240 of 301
CX-encoded, annie-log LD's are just all over the place as far as sound quality goes. I have several hundred of 'em. There's more than a few that are outright atrocious. My jaw dropped when I got my first Dune LD, late 80's I'd reckon. I was stunned how bad the audio was. I rented the VHS tape and it sounded way better. By the 90's, nearly all the new LD's had Digital Sound, read PCM there.

I use my X9's analog processing for all my LD playback these days. I have a digital connection so that I could playback a DTS LD by switching the settings on my pre. I can't remember the last time I played a DTS LD though. I mostly watch ole Academy Ratio films.....Idiot's Delight is a prime example, I watched it recently. BTW, it has Digital Sound.

One of my fav' LD's doesn't have Digital Sound, It Came From Hollywood. It sounds pretty good. It's not a demanding soundtrack by any means though. It looks like a DVD or BD of this title will never materialize. Paramount owns it's rights. That's always a bad omen!

CX sound is erratic. It's usually pretty adequate for 30's and 40's films. It often sucked big time for the more recent films. When I was shopping for LD's in the early 90's, one of the first things I looked for on the sleeve was Digital Sound.
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