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Best VP for Laserdisc playback? - Page 2

post #31 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post

Agree completely! I love the thought of squeezing every last drop of potential performance out of gear. And I love expanding my knowledge in topics like these!

I nearly bought a X0 to back up the Star Wars Trilogy, but abandoned that when I learned about the X0 Project.

I'd love to get to the bottom of which output of the X0 provides the best signal. I'd always heard it was the BNC composite. Are there any pics of that out through outboard processors vs the S-video? Is that how you took your pics nidi?

yes, of course, I used the BNC composite and went into the Entech and Alchemy.

Michael
post #32 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by nidi View Post

yes, of course, I used the BNC composite and went into the Entech and Alchemy.

Michael

Thanks for clarifying!
post #33 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

Completely off-topic, but isn't it so much more fun to talk about the essence of video processing, about comb filters, about laserdiscs, about a 80 lbs Pioneer player instead of nowadays usual topics like HDMI handshakes or HDCP issues ?

Here, here! As many who has responded on this thread, I too am always on the lookout to squeeze every last bit of performance from my LD player and LD movie collection.

The sad thing is my home theater is boxed away currently, but I hope to apply what I have learned in this thread once I can set everything back up again.

Unfortunately, my budget won't allow for me to purchase a X0 or X9 player, but hopefully if I can find a good quality outboard comb filter (perhaps the Entech model if I am lucky) I will improve the image I am getting from my 704 if even but just a little bit.

Although my collection is small, just over 100 discs, there are a few that you can't get the theatrical edition on DVD (or HD-DVD or Blu-ray for that matter) and a few that have supplements that haven't appeared again since the LD release.

Fun times!

EmoryS
post #34 of 301
I am in a similar situation but with a 703 and would welcome any advice to improve my LD PQ as well. WOuld be nice to have some retro LD nights with stuff that never got released on DVD.
post #35 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post

This is not completely true. The basic noise reduction process in a Mosquito will reduce both chroma and luminance noise in an analog source.

And if the analog signal is output via S-Video into any kind of analog-to-digital process (deinterlacing, scaling, etc.) and THEN run into the Mosquito the artifacts resulting from most Y/C filters will be reduced by the digital artifact processing in the Mosquito.

I used to run my Mosquito with LD and found it helpful in both areas. The settings do need to be used carefully.

To clarify, we weren't talking about the Algolith Mosquito. We were talking about the "Mosquito NR" setting in the DVDO VP50PRo, which doesn't affect analog chroma or luminance noise at all.
post #36 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

To clarify, we weren't talking about the Algolith Mosquito. We were talking about the "Mosquito NR" setting in the DVDO VP50PRo, which doesn't affect analog chroma or luminance noise at all.

What would you suggest to improve laserdisc picture quality? I have an Edge and an Panasonic PT-AE3000U. The Edge doesn't seem to help that much for laserdisc (I haven't calibrated much yet). Should I consider a Flea?
post #37 of 301
The Algolith Mosquito/Flea don't have composite inputs, otherwise they would have probably been a good option. Opinions?
post #38 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.master.dre View Post

What would you suggest to improve laserdisc picture quality? I have an Edge and an Panasonic PT-AE3000U. The Edge doesn't seem to help that much for laserdisc (I haven't calibrated much yet). Should I consider a Flea?


The best thing to improve laserdisc quality is a better laserdisc player. The Edge is already giving you great deinterlacing, and a comb filter can only do so much to improve quality. The only thing that can really make a big difference in laserdisc quality is to move to a high quality player.
post #39 of 301
Quote:


To clarify, we weren't talking about the Algolith Mosquito. We were talking about the "Mosquito NR" setting in the DVDO VP50PRo, which doesn't affect analog chroma or luminance noise at all.

Got it (now), Josh. Thanks.
post #40 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtaylor74 View Post

The best thing to improve laserdisc quality is a better laserdisc player. The Edge is already giving you great deinterlacing, and a comb filter can only do so much to improve quality. The only thing that can really make a big difference in laserdisc quality is to move to a high quality player.

Yeah well I had a hell of a time telling my wife I wanted to get a Pioneer CLD-D704 when I had a D504, S105, M301, LDV-2200 and a Sony MDP-333. All on a dead format. If I was to go for a 2-3K Japanese player?
post #41 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post

Thanks for clarifying!



have you downloaded my moving tests yet?


what do you think ?

Michael
post #42 of 301
Quote:


to which device do you want to feed the Composite ?

all external comb filters people rave about (Faroudja,Entech,Alchemy,...)

are worse than the S-Video output, didn't I prove that in the pics ?

even with a Mitsubishi S=VHS VCR with the latest 3D comb filter you
don't get such a clean picture.

if there would be an external 'latest technology' 3D comb filter with great
internal signal routing, then it might be slighly better,
but a 2D comb filter just doesn't cut it nowadays, too many hanging dots
and crawl and not enough detail.

the X9 is much worse in chroma noise than the X0, even with NR on.

I don't doubt your results in the slightest, but it's a generalization to state these results are universal with the varied equipment we place after the player or comb filter.

In the case of the X9, at least, my finding are similar to JoshZ's WRT artifacting when coupled to a video processor using S-Video. In my setup, the Entech CVSI-1 fed by the X9's composite output provides a superior result to using S-Video direct from the player. These new super chips employed by modern VPs are doing or expecting something different than what the NEC filters are providing. This issue most likely doesn't exist with the X0 S-Video output since it employs a 2D filter like the Entech.

The Entech is also visibly superior to the much lauded Gen. 5 TI comb filter in the CII and the Marantz MV8300 (JVC 40K clone) that I have experimented with.

Also, I wouldn't test something like an outboard comb filter or deinterlacer on static images if you're running a VP or modern display in the video chain.
post #43 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axatax View Post

I don't doubt your results in the slightest, but it's a generalization to state these results are universal with the varied equipment we place after the player or comb filter.

In the case of the X9, at least, my finding are similar to JoshZ's WRT artifacting when coupled to a video processor using S-Video. In my setup, the Entech CVSI-1 fed by the X9's composite output provides a superior result to using S-Video direct from the player. These new super chips employed by modern VPs are doing or expecting something different than what the NEC filters are providing. This issue most likely doesn't exist with the X0 S-Video output since it employs a 2D filter like the Entech.

The Entech is also visibly superior to the much lauded Gen. 5 TI comb filter in the CII and the Marantz MV8300 (JVC 40K clone) that I have experimented with.

Also, I wouldn't test something like an outboard comb filter or deinterlacer on static images if you're running a VP or modern display in the video chain.

The X0's comb filter is a 3D design.

can someone else post pictures of their Entech filter, please ?

what type of 2D is the Entech ? (2 line, 3 line, ...)

Michael
post #44 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axatax View Post

I don't doubt your results in the slightest, but it's a generalization to state these results are universal with the varied equipment we place after the player or comb filter.

In the case of the X9, at least, my finding are similar to JoshZ's WRT artifacting when coupled to a video processor using S-Video. In my setup, the Entech CVSI-1 fed by the X9's composite output provides a superior result to using S-Video direct from the player. These new super chips employed by modern VPs are doing or expecting something different than what the NEC filters are providing. This issue most likely doesn't exist with the X0 S-Video output since it employs a 2D filter like the Entech.

The Entech is also visibly superior to the much lauded Gen. 5 TI comb filter in the CII and the Marantz MV8300 (JVC 40K clone) that I have experimented with.

Also, I wouldn't test something like an outboard comb filter or deinterlacer on static images if you're running a VP or modern display in the video chain.

Avatax

I can't say that the Entech is the best in the bunch I have here,
it's pretty mediocre and does add some additional noise.

has anyone tested a Crystal View or Camelot ?

I just tested the C2's comb filter with Joe Kane's VE LD.

it's not that bad once you play around with chroma and luma coring.
it's in the region of what the X0's can do, much better than the Entech or Alchemy.

if anyone is interested , I can get a X9 and can do a capture of it's
Composite and S-Video outputs.

I'm waiting for HDgaming42's analysis of my tests, since he's the only one that
asked for the download link.

Michael

anyone got any wish what scene to capture and anlyse next ?
post #45 of 301
Quote:


I'm waiting for HDgaming42's analysis of my tests, since he's the only one that
asked for the download link.

I'm with you. If the clips haven't changed much from what you've sent me a few months ago, your decision to use the X0's S-Video output was right. I might be able to share a few X9 + CVSI-1 videos as well quite soon. So at least I should be able to tell if the X9's S-Video or it's composite paired up with an Entech comb filter is better...
post #46 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.master.dre View Post

Yeah well I had a hell of a time telling my wife I wanted to get a Pioneer CLD-D704 when I had a D504, S105, M301, LDV-2200 and a Sony MDP-333. All on a dead format. If I was to go for a 2-3K Japanese player?

Understood. I am just speaking from my experience on laserdisc players. When I had a CLD-52, I wanted more, so went to a Elite CLD79. Wanted more still so I bougt an Iscan Ultra scaler. Very little improvement at all, then went to an Iscan HD+, again, minimal improvement. In the end, the only thing that significantly improved laserdisc performance was a better laserdisc player. I spent lots of money on scalers thinking it would make a magical difference. All the scaler did was took a mediocore analog image and performed a bit better deinterlacing than my HDTV did. In the end, it was the X9 that got me where I wanted laserdisc to be. Lots of money yes. My advice is just that you are only going to see slight, if any, performance increase on laserdisc based solely on scalers and comb filters. The core performance is in the image that the player itself puts out.
post #47 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by nidi View Post

have you downloaded my moving tests yet?


what do you think ?

Michael

Working on it--thanks for posting them. I'll have a chance to go over them tomorrow evening.
post #48 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtaylor74 View Post

Understood. I am just speaking from my experience on laserdisc players. When I had a CLD-52, I wanted more, so went to a Elite CLD79. Wanted more still so I bougt an Iscan Ultra scaler. Very little improvement at all, then went to an Iscan HD+, again, minimal improvement. In the end, the only thing that significantly improved laserdisc performance was a better laserdisc player. I spent lots of money on scalers thinking it would make a magical difference. All the scaler did was took a mediocore analog image and performed a bit better deinterlacing than my HDTV did. In the end, it was the X9 that got me where I wanted laserdisc to be. Lots of money yes. My advice is just that you are only going to see slight, if any, performance increase on laserdisc based solely on scalers and comb filters. The core performance is in the image that the player itself puts out.

Thank you for this response. Exactly what I was looking for. Unfortunately players that are better than my CLD-D704 are pretty pricey. I could replace my 124 laserdisc collection and numerous players with blu-ray for the price of an X9. I realize that my Star Wars Editions and my Godfather Epic will probably never see DVD, nevermind blu-ray but I have to settle somewhere. The D704 will have to do I think. I was hoping my DVDO Edge by itself or with another comb filter may have done the trick but I was starting to think what you said was true before you stated it.
post #49 of 301
Hello,

Well... although I don't think I am going to get much improvement from the component out of my 704 laserdisc player, I couldn't resist picking up a Crystal Vision VPS-1 off of fleabay for $50.

For those that might be interested, there is a new Entech CVSI-1 currently for auction on fleabay - Item number: 180361513220

As good as the Entech unit might be, I don't think it is worth $200 even though it might be new in the box.

Anyway, I don't have any association with the seller, but thought I would mention this in case anyone who reads this thread might be interested in picking up an Entech CVSI-1.

EmoryS
post #50 of 301
It seems like many people like the Entech CVSI-1. Opinions?
post #51 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmoryS View Post

Hello,

Well... although I don't think I am going to get much improvement from the component out of my 704 laserdisc player, I couldn't resist picking up a Crystal Vision VPS-1 off of fleabay for $50.

For those that might be interested, there is a new Entech CVSI-1 currently for auction on fleabay - Item number: 180361513220

As good as the Entech unit might be, I don't think it is worth $200 even though it might be new in the box.

Anyway, I don't have any association with the seller, but thought I would mention this in case anyone who reads this thread might be interested in picking up an Entech CVSI-1.

EmoryS

EmoryS, you read my mind. While I was typing my post you beat me to it.
post #52 of 301
Quote:


As good as the Entech unit might be, I don't think it is worth $200 even though it might be new in the box.

Considering the original price of roughly US $1000.00, it not unreasonable, IMHO. The comb filter was actually not the primary function - it was marketed as an S-Video to component transcoder for receivers lacking component switching.

If you need something like this, the S/CVSI are really the only devices to do this.
post #53 of 301
A unit in decent shape used to command no more than $200 6 years ago. From this thread and others it seems that buying a better LD player would net you a far more substantial gain in PQ than picking up an Entech...

If you're still interested there's a member who just mentioned having one collecting dust. Perhaps he'd be open to a transaction...
post #54 of 301
Quote:


the Entech is ... it's pretty mediocre and does add some additional noise.

This is just w.r.o.n.g. on both claims. If you are basing this on a color bar frame, please view something other than a static, slightly incorrect test pattern.
With ALL respect - if you want to debate this (and I am fine with that ) then we need to go over setup and equipment in detail, including software.
I will state without any qualification that, with a composite source, the Entech is superior to ANY other Y/C filter when any type of deinterlacing, upscaling, or other processing of the video signal.
This is especially true of the SVSI-1. While still applicable I am not quite as enthusiastic about the CVSI-1 in all circumstances.

Quote:


it seems that buying a better LD player would net you a far more substantial gain in PQ than picking up an Entech...

It depends greatly upon the player upgrade. Other factors would be the player output format and the display equipment.

Quote:


My advice is just that you are only going to see slight, if any, performance increase on laserdisc based solely on scalers and comb filters.

And FWIW I'll take the other side ...
The best way to improve the performance of any good LD player is with a Y/C filter that precludes or lessens the ill-effects of composite-to-HD processing.
post #55 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post

This is especially true of the SVSI-1. While still applicable I am not quite as enthusiastic about the CVSI-1 in all circumstances.

What's the difference between them?
post #56 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

What's the difference between them?

one is Composite to S-Video

and the other adds Component out

Michael
post #57 of 301
OK, but why is Hunter not enthusiastic about the CVSI-1? Is there a quality difference?
post #58 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

What's the difference between them?

SVSI-1 stands for S-Video System Integrator so it converts composite to S-Video. CVSI-1 stands for Component Video System Integrator and it converts composite and S-Video (and it had a component pass through that was only capable of passing through 480i/576i) to component video.

Sorry I am not sure why Hunter has the preference for the SVSI-1, other than potentially the lower cost and better availability.
post #59 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

OK, but why is Hunter not enthusiastic about the CVSI-1? Is there a quality difference?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshA View Post

SVSI-1 stands for S-Video System Integrator so it converts composite to S-Video. CVSI-1 stands for Component Video System Integrator and it converts composite and S-Video (and it had a component pass through that was only capable of passing through 480i/576i) to component video.

Sorry I am not sure why Hunter has the preference for the SVSI-1, other than potentially the lower cost and better availability.

Are Josh's B-Y going to contribute?
post #60 of 301
Guys,

does anyone know where to get a service manual for the CVSI-1?

mine stoped working a couple of weeks ago.

Thanks

Michael
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