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Best VP for Laserdisc playback? - Page 3

post #61 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post

This is just w.r.o.n.g. on both claims. If you are basing this on a color bar frame, please view something other than a static, slightly incorrect test pattern.
With ALL respect - if you want to debate this (and I am fine with that ) then we need to go over setup and equipment in detail, including software.
I will state without any qualification that, with a composite source, the Entech is superior to ANY other Y/C filter when any type of deinterlacing, upscaling, or other processing of the video signal.
This is especially true of the SVSI-1. While still applicable I am not quite as enthusiastic about the CVSI-1 in all circumstances.


It depends greatly upon the player upgrade. Other factors would be the player output format and the display equipment.


And FWIW I'll take the other side ...
The best way to improve the performance of any good LD player is with a Y/C filter that precludes or lessens the ill-effects of composite-to-HD processing.

Okay now what? I was sure a Y/C comb filter would help with my laserdiscs. Then I was basically told no way. Now we have a resounding yes. For $100 I would love to get one. $200 plus shipping? Maybe?

Other's opinions? Josh Z?
post #62 of 301
I can't speak for the masses, but I have a HLD-X9 which a very nice LD player and I have a CVSI-1 which is a very nice external comb filter. Still I don't use them in a chain. The X9's internal comb filter is good and the X9 does not have a pure Composite output which I could use to feed the external comb filter. As long as you're using an LD player which internally splits up composite into Y/C (using a mediocre comb filter) and then combing it back together for a "pseudo"-composite output I don't see any chances for huge improvements based on the addition of an external comb filter....
post #63 of 301
Anyone up for a US/Canada/EU LD get together? Lots of regulars here. Would be interested in seeing others setups, sharing tips, and meeting faces.

We could bring the various assortments of software, VPs, and filters, etc. in one place to put these units through their paces. Preferably on a 9" CRT =)
post #64 of 301
Quote:


What's the difference between them?

The SVSI-1 is composite input-S-Video output combfilter, the CVSI-1 is composite and S-Video input-component/VGA output combfilter/transcoder. The SVSI-1 is silver, the CVSI-1 is black.

Not not speak for Hunter (or anyone else), but I believe some have observed macroblocking-like artifacts with the CVSI-1. I have not observed this with the CVSI-1 paired with X9 and CII (and I have an SVSI-1 on-hand). The CVSI-1 seems easier to obtain.
post #65 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

I can't speak for the masses, but I have a HLD-X9 which a very nice LD player and I have a CVSI-1 which is a very nice external comb filter. Still I don't use them in a chain. The X9's internal comb filter is good and the X9 does not have a pure Composite output which I could use to feed the external comb filter. As long as you're using an LD player which internally splits up composite into Y/C (using a mediocre comb filter) and then combing it back together for a "pseudo"-composite output I don't see any chances for huge improvements based on the addition of an external comb filter....

The problem with the X9's 3D comb filter is that it adds terrible checkerboarding artifacts to colors during motion. This is reduced if you turn the 3D Y/C setting all the way off, but a setting of even one notch and they're back. And when you turn 3D Y/C off, that basically disables any of the comb filter's better quality (colors are dull again). The net effect is that it's basically useless.

While the composite output on the player isn't "pure", it lacks those checkerboarding artifacts (because 3D Y/C isn't applied). I'm curious if running that through a better 2D external comb filter will yield any improvements. The few that I've tried to date haven't done much, but I haven't tested extensively, and I've never tried the Entech units.

I'll be honest that I'm eyeing that eBay auction for the CVSI-1. $200 or so isn't out of the question for me. But if it does add macroblocking/checkerboarding, then I'll pass. I'd like to hear from more people who've used it.
post #66 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

The problem with the X9's 3D comb filter is that it adds terrible checkerboarding artifacts to colors during motion. This is reduced if you turn the 3D Y/C setting all the way off, but a setting of even one notch and they're back. And when you turn 3D Y/C off, that basically disables any of the comb filter's better quality (colors are dull again). The net effect is that it's basically useless.

While the composite output on the player isn't "pure", it lacks those checkerboarding artifacts (because 3D Y/C isn't applied). I'm curious if running that through a better 2D external comb filter will yield any improvements. The few that I've tried to date haven't done much, but I haven't tested extensively, and I've never tried the Entech units.

I'll be honest that I'm eyeing that eBay auction for the CVSI-1. $200 or so isn't out of the question for me. But if it does add macroblocking/checkerboarding, then I'll pass. I'd like to hear from more people who've used it.


Josh,

can you give me an example of this checkerboarding problem, a movie and
timestamp where it's seen most pronounced.

Thanks

Michael
post #67 of 301
http://www.camelottechnology.com/whats_new/video.html

anyone seen this in action ?

Michael
post #68 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by nidi View Post

can you give me an example of this checkerboarding problem, a movie and
timestamp where it's seen most pronounced.

Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery.

The movie has very bright, saturated colors that are very prone to this artifact. The problem is basically prevalent through the entire opening credits sequence, especially when they dance. For a pinpoint specific example, there's a part of that sequence when Austin hides in a red telephone booth from the screaming girls running down the street. As the girls pass him, the red of the booth breaks up into checkerboard artifacts.

This is the type of thing that, once you see the artifact, you can't not see it ever again. You'll see it everywhere, on every disc.
post #69 of 301
Quote:


anyone seen this in action ?

I remember a statement in some forum which said that it was about the same (qualitywise) as the passive Entech Composite to S-Video converter introduced at about $70 a few years after the active converters.
post #70 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudoh View Post

I can't speak for the masses, but I have a HLD-X9 which a very nice LD player and I have a CVSI-1 which is a very nice external comb filter. Still I don't use them in a chain. The X9's internal comb filter is good and the X9 does not have a pure Composite output which I could use to feed the external comb filter. As long as you're using an LD player which internally splits up composite into Y/C (using a mediocre comb filter) and then combing it back together for a "pseudo"-composite output I don't see any chances for huge improvements based on the addition of an external comb filter....

Okay so where do I stand with a Pioneer CLD-D704 or the D504? My two main players. Is there somewhere that has a list of this type of information?
post #71 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery.

The movie has very bright, saturated colors that are very prone to this artifact. The problem is basically prevalent through the entire opening credits sequence, especially when they dance. For a pinpoint specific example, there's a part of that sequence when Austin hides in a red telephone booth from the screaming girls running down the street. As the girls pass him, the red of the booth breaks up into checkerboard artifacts.

This is the type of thing that, once you see the artifact, you can't not see it ever again. You'll see it everywhere, on every disc.


Josh, I don't have this title. any other title comes to mind ?

Michael
post #72 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by nidi View Post

Josh, I don't have this title. any other title comes to mind ?

That's my test case, but like I said, it's pretty much everywhere. Pick any disc with bright colors and a lot of motion, and crank the 3D Y/C setting to its highest. Once you identify the artifact, you'll see that it's still present even at the lowest 3D setting.
post #73 of 301
What Josh described and the "once you see it it'll drive you crazy forever" is exactly right (unfortunately ).

Another example - "The Fifth Element."
As Lee Loo (sp? I've forgotten!) is being cloned/manufactured right after the green fluid is pumped, the robot arms start a weaving process. The screen disintegrates into a checkerboard kitchen tablecloth.
Another different artifact from the start of the same movie - when the professor is moving his pointer along the wall hieroglyphicsat the start, multiple mini-rainbows break out all over the wall in the highlighted details. Most Y/C filters splatter this problem, exacerbate the ringing, and produce a noticeable loss of resolution.

Minimizing the settings on an X9, turning off NR on a CLD-97, or using the Entech yields an improvement. As does using an X0.

Quote:
the X9 does not have a pure Composite output

Yes.
But the X9 is superior to most other players in the quality of its S-Video output: it is not subject to the "two filter" process Pioneer employed with the CLD-99, -704, -97, et al.

And not to beat a tired horse, but the Entech will help the X9 output, when the settings are minimized or turned off as Josh detailed.
post #74 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by nidi View Post

Guys,

does anyone know where to get a service manual for the CVSI-1?

mine stoped working a couple of weeks ago.

Thanks

Michael

I don't know about a service manual, but I have one of those. It went out once with a puffing noise and a nasty smell, so I opened it up and sure enough, it had blown a capacitor. It's a simple soldering job to replace it though, and mine worked fine again afterward. Maybe that's what happened to yours.
post #75 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidb View Post

I don't know about a service manual, but I have one of those. It went out once with a puffing noise and a nasty smell, so I opened it up and sure enough, it had blown a capacitor. It's a simple soldering job to replace it though, and mine worked fine again afterward. Maybe that's what happened to yours.

Same with mine. It blew a capacitor, and after swapping it out it was as good as new.

I don't think I've heard of someone owning a CSVS-1 and NOT having a cap blow!
post #76 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post

And not to beat a tired horse, but the Entech will help the X9 output, when the settings are minimized or turned off as Josh detailed.

Hunter, I'd still like to know why you said you're not as enthusiastic about the CVSI-1 than the SVSI-1. Did you find the quality of the CVSI-1 to be inferior?
post #77 of 301
OK, well, the auction for that CVSI-1 is over and somebody else claimed it.

I'd still like to know whether there are any quality differences between the two Entech units, though.
post #78 of 301
Hi, Josh -

My concern with the component integrator (CVSI-1) is that I would sometimes see sparklies on some discs. It was infrequent and seemingly random from disc to disc - while visible on some discs they did not seem to be visible on others. When visible on a disc they would always be that way on that disc. It was NOT disc rot, BTW.

It seemed to be most likely in broad areas of low detail and little color variation, with fairly high luminance levels (although not overly bright). Voltage variations with different wall warts did not effect what I saw. And it was there in two units.

Whether or not it is due to some early state of capacitor failure that some have mentioned I do not know. Someone else has reported to me as having no similar problem.

In all other other aspects the CVSI-1 is nor worse than its S-Video brother, the SVSI-1.
As a matter of fact I could find no difference in quality or other advantage in using the all-in-one component output of the CVSI-1 compared to the separate SVSI-1 box + subsequent S-to-Component conversion in another box.
post #79 of 301
Very interesting. Thanks.
post #80 of 301
I can find no engineering level specifications for the Entech units. Furthermore they are being represented by Monster Cable. That alone makes me very suspicious of their quality.

Without testing one, I would trust the Pioneer internal comb filters far more than the Entech!

You can find very good decoders from the 1990s as used broadcast equipment. Faroudja made a good analog unit. Better yet get a digital decoder and run SDI into your processor. Since NTSC is basically dead on the high end side of the television industry, there is plenty of high quality NTSC equipment on the market for pennies on the dollar.
post #81 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

You can find very good decoders from the 1990s as used broadcast equipment. Faroudja made a good analog unit. Better yet get a digital decoder and run SDI into your processor. Since NTSC is basically dead on the high end side of the television industry, there is plenty of high quality NTSC equipment on the market for pennies on the dollar.

If cheap enough, this would be fun to test. Do you have any recommended brands and models that could be found on fleabay?

Sending a composite out from my 704 into some type of digital comb filter that outputs SDI sounds very intriguing.

EmoryS
post #82 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

I can find no engineering level specifications for the Entech units. Furthermore they are being represented by Monster Cable. That alone makes me very suspicious of their quality.

Without testing one, I would trust the Pioneer internal comb filters far more than the Entech!

You can find very good decoders from the 1990s as used broadcast equipment. Faroudja made a good analog unit. Better yet get a digital decoder and run SDI into your processor. Since NTSC is basically dead on the high end side of the television industry, there is plenty of high quality NTSC equipment on the market for pennies on the dollar.

Yep, a pro unit would be sweet!

with lots of filter options (2 line , 3 line , 3D , ...)

do you know of any units tha had good word of mouth ?

Michael
post #83 of 301
Quote:


Furthermore they are being represented by Monster Cable. That alone makes me very suspicious of their quality.

With all respect ... isn't that a bit similar in mindset to a blanket dismissal by audiophiles of our type of setups???
The Entech unit was developed, engineered, and manufactured by the people heading the highly-respected line of Spectral Audio - Damien Martin, Rick Fryer, etc. Monster's involvement was mainly marketing (and there was little of that!).

Quote:


Without testing one, I would trust the Pioneer internal comb filters far more than the Entech!

Respectfully, again, I would seriously encourage actual use before "trusting" any company's superiority. Especially the company that developed and promoted as superior the "double, piggyback loop" 2D - 3D Y/C technological dump that Pioneer did toward the end of the Elite line.

Quote:


Better yet get a digital decoder and run SDI into your processor. Since NTSC is basically dead on the high end side of the television industry, there is plenty of high quality NTSC equipment on the market for pennies on the dollar.

The Y/C filters in those digital decoders ARE the problem. When they are used in front of ANY subsequent digital process - deinterlacing, scaling, color and luminance adjustment - they produce artifacts worse than ANY deficiencies in other latter-day non-adaptive filters.

I've tried several of the Sony, Panasonic, JVC and Kramer units - owned, borrowed, used in shops - with and without SDI and it's always the same result. Josh, too, evidently finds it egregious.

Yeah I sound a little frustrated and over the top. But it's because I spent almost four years and hundreds (thousand+, probably) of dollars trying everything I could to get solve the problem. In the end the solution was to eliminate the 3-D adaptive process. When I did it ameliorated several other weaknesses along the way - noise, ringing, etc.
post #84 of 301
Quote:


Sending a composite out from my 704 into some type of digital comb filter that outputs SDI sounds very intriguing.

You've already got two comb filters in the 704. It doesn't matter WHAT comes after them.
post #85 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post


The Y/C filters in those digital decoders ARE the problem. When they are used in front of ANY subsequent digital process - deinterlacing, scaling, color and luminance adjustment - they produce artifacts worse than ANY deficiencies in other latter-day non-adaptive filters.

I've tried several of the Sony, Panasonic, JVC and Kramer units - owned, borrowed, used in shops - with and without SDI and it's always the same result. Josh, too, evidently finds it egregious.

The Y/C filter I am talking about are done in the digital domian. There is no perfect "comb filter". A comb filter is only one of several filter types used in a good decoder. And only a digital based decoder can effectivily do the selection process. The reason is basic time travel. You can't decide what filter to use until you analyze the content. Without digital storage, how do you hold back the video to analyze it. You can't decide on a filter type after the video has passed through the chain. For example my decoder has up to two frames of delay depending on the mode you set it in.

Kramer? That is again prosumer stuff. Even Sony and Panasonic don't make great decoders even though they make other good broadcast equipment. And I don't really think a bunch of guys from an audiophile equipment company know more about NTSC decoding than the people at the high end broadcast manufactures.

Here are the brands I am talking about:

Accom (defunct) DB221
Innovision (bought by Technique, then Leitch) DX210 (I have one of these)
Fortel (now Qustream) - they have some great white papers on decoders
Snell & Wilcox
Vistek

Here is a good paper from an industry expert(IMO)
http://www.qustream.com/whitepapers/...WhitePaper.pdf
post #86 of 301
Here is the digital video tap in my Pioneer CLD95. 8 bits, 14mhz clock, H&V sync, and grounds.

This takes the digitized COMPOSITE video after the internal TBC. This goes off to a driver card that converts the TTL levels to balanced ECL per SMPTE125. This is then formatted and serialized by an external box and fed directly into the Innovision decoder. This is an all digital path to the display from this point, that is through a Digital Vision DVNR500 digital noise/grain reducer and a DVDO VP50pro. The only analog is the front end of the LD player. It doesn't get any cleaner than this. I don't use any noise reduction in the VP50 as the DVNR is far superior.
LL
post #87 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Here is the digital video tap in my Pioneer CLD95. 8 bits, 14mhz clock, H&V sync, and grounds.

This takes the digitized COMPOSITE video after the internal TBC. This goes off to a driver card that converts the TTL levels to balanced ECL per SMPTE125. This is then formatted and serialized by an external box and fed directly into the Innovision decoder. This is an all digital path to the display from this point, that is through a Digital Vision DVNR500 digital noise/grain reducer and a DVDO VP50pro. The only analog is the front end of the LD player. It doesn't get any cleaner than this. I don't use any noise reduction in the VP50 as the DVNR is far superior.


COOL!

do you have the Video Essentials LD ?

if yes, it would be great if you could capture the S&W Zone Plate pattern.

Michael
post #88 of 301
That's pretty neat. Is this possible with other models?

As for the composite to SDI suggestion, of all the broadcast gear I've used to process analog composite to SDI (admittedly only 3 or 4 units) they all exhibited horrible, horrible artifacting. Perhaps your comment was strictly regarding digital composite?

And yes, I too would love to see some captures!

As for the Entech--the Monster bash was uncalled for and off the mark. I'm not surprised at Hunters response... don't judge a book by its cover etc etc =)
post #89 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDgaming42 View Post

That's pretty neat. Is this possible with other models?

As for the composite to SDI suggestion, of all the broadcast gear I've used to process analog composite to SDI (admittedly only 3 or 4 units) they all exhibited horrible, horrible artifacting. Perhaps your comment was strictly regarding digital composite?

And yes, I too would love to see some captures!

As for the Entech--the Monster bash was uncalled for and off the mark. I'm not surprised at Hunters response... don't judge a book by its cover etc etc =)

The difference between a composite digital input and analog is not huge. Just as an HDMI connectoin is not night and day different than a component analog connection. Keep in mind that composite digital is still encoded NTSC. The only benefit from composite digital is avoiding another D/A to A/D conversion. But with laserdisk on a big screen, I try to squeeze out every last bit of S/N.

If you have had bad results from broadcast grade decoders it may be the source. Many broadcast products expect text book NTSC signals. That doesn't mean good looking pictures either. It means strict adherance to timing specifications. Even Laserdisk players with TBC's still have too much jitter on the output. My Pioneer CLD95 is stable enough. I also have a Sony MDP55? that has a TBC but is not stable enough to feed my decoder. And most broadcast decoders simply will not accept non-phased color, like a VHS playback. The decoders in consumer products including the consumer video processors often do an analog Y/C seperation to get arounf non-phased color and excessive jitter. But the end result is compromised performance.

As for my Monster cable comment - I though we were talking about high end video performance here? Sorry if it offends some here but as an EE with 25 years in the broadcast industry, I can't support their tactics. I still have not seen any MEASURED technical specifications of the Entech decoders. Perhaps someone can point me to some. And then there's this little gem from Monster/Entech:

http://www.mysimon.com/9015-11547_8-21197076.html

I realize this isn't the product being discussed above but come on! No respectable video equipment manufacture would even offer such a thing. It's no more than a simple passive filter - if that. I wouldn't be surprised if it's just a couple of resistors. How does it compensate for insertion loss without any active amplification. What about maintaining 75ohms impedance on the lines?
post #90 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

If you have had bad results from broadcast grade decoders it may be the source.

The player was a Pioneer LD-V4400 fed house sync. One decoder was a leitch, the others I don't remember. Composite out to a broadcast monitor did not show the same artifacting (very digital in nature) that any route into the digital domain produced.

Quote:


As for my Monster cable comment - I though we were talking about high end video performance here? Sorry if it offends some here but as an EE with 25 years in the broadcast industry, I can't support their tactics.

I don't think anyone here is defending Monster, but the Entech deserves a closer look. Just ignore the Monster marketing speak that is based in anything but reality.

I think we'd all love to see some proper measurements for any of the methods discussed here. It would make the whole discussion a lot clearer.

So far we have a number of screencaps of different comb filters operating on the LD Video Essentials. I'd love to see some of your results! The Zone Plate would be of particular interest...
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