The "Official" Pioneer VSX-1019AH Owner's Thread - Page 95

VSX 1019 AHK

Occasionally when watching Direct TV the audio will skip a beat, just for a second. The receiver will change from "DD Digital" to "Dial Norm" and then back again. The video is unaffected. All connections are HDMI. What is causing this? What is Dial Norm? Thank You.

I googled "Dial Norm on Pioneer Receivers" and opened the 1st search result. I'm copying and pasting the explanation of DialNorm (Dialogue Normalization):

Sounds like normal amplifier clipping to me... the death of many tweeters. When the amp runs out of juice it clips the output which causes all kinds of problems. Most people think too much power blows speakers, but (especially with tweeters) its the lack of power and resulting clipping that's the problem.

From wikipedia: In the frequency domain, clipping produces harmonics at higher frequencies than the unclipped signal. This additional high frequency energy has the potential to damage a loudspeaker's tweeter via overheating.

Thanks! I was wondering the same thing, it only happens on my DirecTV source which is connected via optical due to the HDMI "bug" a few people have run into.

Not hernanu, but will take a stab at this anyway.

A few subs support daisy-chaining, but most do not. However, you can easily run two subs by using a simple "Y" splitter out of the AVR's LFE output with separate cables to each.

It can be tricky setting up two subs properly, but once they are calibrated, they should reward you with smoother, more accurate bass over a wider listening area. In most rooms, two subs can provide a significant enhancement.

As another option, some people prefer to forgo the benefits of smoothing response, choosing to co-locate them so they act like one more powerful sub to gain greater headroom.

Thanks!!!!!!! Can I abuse your kindness as follows?

Do the subs have to be identical specs? Or can I use different models from the same line? Specifically, the Sony SA-W3000 and SA-W2500.

I'm a Home Theater noob, so don't mind the question. But what exactly is clipping? And is it "normal"? I don't think you meant it the way I took it initially. Maybe, you were describing what happened as an "obvious" conclusion, and I meant it as if it was "normal" for the receiver to clip?

Can you please explain clipping in a simple way? Or guide me to a link which will explain it?

Thanks.

No worries. I googled this out too. Found this. Not read it fully, but from reading the beginning, I'm guessing this would explain it.

I think this comes from the receiver losing the digital audio signal. As it re-sync's to the signal, it displays that message.

I have seen this on a number of sources (especially OTA TV) when you have signal fluctuation.

MacFan gave some great advice as usual. The reason you can run multiple subs split is that (hopefully) they are powered, so they place very little load on the AVR. It is also not necessary for subs to have the same specs, they can work together just fine. Matter of fact, you can buy special subs that don't cover the same frequency range, but are stronger at different areas of the typical low end range (low, mid bass, etc.).

The important thing with multiple subs is placement and using the phase control on the back of both (or more) subs. This is something the 1019/919 can't help with, since MCACC only sees one sub connection.

So some important things:

1. placement of each sub (doing the "sub crawl" helps).
2. placement of each sub relative to each other.
3. use of the phase control to prevent sub vs. sub combat.

The best placement for multiple subs is probably mid-wall, across from each other; The distance from the wall is defined by whether the subs are vented or fully enclosed. If you like your sound more bass heavy, you might put subs in the corner areas.

There is much better advice and info in the subs forum, check them out. And they would jump all over themselves encouraging you to use more than one sub.

Here ya go.

I meant "normal" as in: excepted results when running an amp at 0dBs

In this case 0dBs is full volume (the 1019 goes to +12dBs), and at that point the amp is out of reserve power so it clips or cuts off the audio signal (wave form). This action tends to smoke tweeters by forcing them to do un-natural things, thus its "normal" to blow tweeters at full volume.

All amps clip, its just some are more graceful then others when pushed to those limits. Higher-end amps tend to have soft clip technology in them were they scale back their output or have better (bigger) regulated power supplies that allow for some wiggle-room in an effort to avoid messy hard clipping.

When you hear distortion you are in fact most likely hearing clipping. Best to turn down the volume before you damage your ears or the speakers. When people blow speakers they assume its due to over powering but under powered clipping can do just as much damage to speakers.

+1 to hernanu's comments.

The conventional wisdom in the sub forums is to use identical subs, but in practice this isn't really necessary, especially if they are placed asymmetrically. Placement affects a sub so much that other factors are often negated. (Co-location does call for identical ones, though.)

I use an SVS 16-46 PC+ together with a SVS PB-12NSD, because front corner didn't have room for a box and the rear corner couldn't hold a cylinder. The less powerful box is half as far from me as the cylinder, and they work brilliantly together.

I've used other "mismatched" sub pairs in the past, and if the results were less than perfect, they still were significant improvements over using only one. I don't know the Sony line, but my guess is that you'll be pleased by the results if you add the second one.

Did that happen with the same speakers? The published specs have your fronts as being very efficient (91 db), so they shouldn't normally have issues with clipping unless you're trying to cover a lot of area (which you are).

If you add the amplifiers, you will deliver plenty of power to the speakers, bypassing the Onkyo's amplifiers. As an example, your amps are rated at 0.8 distortion over the 20 Hz - 20Khz range for 100 watts per channel. That is better than the 1019's. An emotiva 3 channel amplifier will give you 200 watts RMS over three channels for 8 ohm speakers. It will give you 300 watts RMS for 4 ohm speakers. The reason for three is that, with most 5.1 or 7.1 systems, most of the demand goes on the front three speakers. The AVR's amps are more than enough to handle surround loads.

If you still get clipping from a pre-pro setup, maybe something is off with your speakers.

Thanks Macfan and Hernanu, I appreciate your generous advice.

The SA-W3000 http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921665089196 has a line out so I guess I'll just run a sub cable from it to the SA-W25000 http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921665089844

I've attached the user manual which contains the specs for both subs; they have a common manual.

Re phase control - should this be normal or reverse when two subs are connected?

Thanks again!

 

SAW3000.pdf 170.87109375k . file

hey guys, i know this is way off topic to what is being discussed right now but i have a huge problem......i use my ipod to listen to all my music i have so i kept it plugged in even after i am not listening to music and even when i shut down my entertainment system i left it in. Now, when i go to listen to music through my ipod, my 919 does not recognise it. All that i see on the screen is "Loading". i left it in for about an hour and all i saw was "Loading". Can anyone tell me what is happening here? The ipod is working fine alone but it is simply not being picked up by the receiver.

It's a bit more involved. The phase control is meant to make up for any lack of synchronization between two drivers, either from your fronts or between subs. If you are not happy with your bass response, you might do an old trick:

reverse the wiring on your fronts (+ to -, - to +), sit at the listening position and get a friend to change the phase setting until you detect the LOWEST amount of bass being heard; Use a test tone, preferably one near the crossover. Once you identify that setting, leave it there, change the wiring on your fronts back to normal and you should have the best phase setting. Repeat with your other sub.

The phase control is not a silver bullet. If you have time lag between bass signals, modifying it may work for some frequencies, but not as well for others. It may be that your subs will be in perfect phase, but at least it is worth playing with. You will probably get the best results just by sub placement.

Sub crawl is putting your sub at your favorite listening position, then gettng on hands and knees and crawling around and seeing locations when the bass sounds the best (possible sub placement locations) and where the bass sounds the worst (bass nulls) - these you avoid.

Should work fine.

Phase is room and position dependent, so there is no one size fits all rule. Generally speaking, it's best to leave the phase control in normal to begin with, then try switching it back and forth to see if reverse sounds better at your listening position. If you can't hear any difference, leave it at normal. When you add the second sub, leave the first one where it was and try the same experiment with the second. Again, if you hear no difference, set it to match the first.

Edit: hernanu beat me to it with a much more detailed answer.

For those interested...
A fellow avsforum member, Bossobass, wrote a fantastic guide to subwoofers. It's pretty much everything you wanted to know about subwoofers (including dual subs).. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post17126905
It's also in pdf format at the end of the post.
Macfan and graphicguy wrote here on the subject dual subs here as well. A PEQ would be a worthwhile investment.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I called Pioneer and the best they had to offer is reset to factory settings and if that doesn't work call us back.

I have done the reset and will see what happens.

Thanks for the wiki link.

Thanks guys for all the most informative responses. I'm most grateful! Will let you know how it goes

Maybe someone could help me here. It's probably off topic but ...

I'm able to get receiver pioneer 1018 or 1019 at the same price. From what I read, 1018 look like better, but if someone got both receiver and have more feedback, it will be really appreciated.

Thanks

The 1019 is the "Newer" model. If you're getting both at the same price, it's actually a no-brainer what you should go in for. Is the 1018 new or refurbished? The 1019 is almost out of stock everywhere. If you're getting both at the same price, does that mean you're getting the 1019 at a lower price or the 1018 at a higher price?

If it was me, I would jump at the 1019.

The differences I could find between the 1019 and the 1018 are as follows:

No. of HDMI Inputs: 4 on 1019, 3 on 1018

iPod Cable supplied in-box: with 1019, not with 1018

Amplifier Design: Hybrid (Advanced Direct Energy) in 1019, Direct Energy in 1018

Surround Power: 120x7 in 1019, 130x7 in 1018

Phase control, EQ bands, Calibration presets: present in 1019, absent in 1018

PCM via HDMI: definitely on 1019, not sure (not mentioned on website) on 1018

Digital converter to HDMI (upconversion): Present in 1019, not sure in 1018

PQLS (only needed if you have a Pioneer BD player): present on 1019, not sure on 1018

XM Satellite Radio: Present on 1018, absent on 1019

Analog Multi Channel input: 7 channel on 1018, 5.1 channels on 1019

Preamp Out: All 7 channels in 1018, only Sub Pre-out in 1019

On-screen GUI: present in 1019, present in 1018 too (but I think it's text-based)

iPhone Zone 2 capability: present in 1019, absent in 1018

Finish: Gloss black in 1019, Urushi in 1018

Weight: 19 lbs 3 oz (1019), 29 lbs 1 oz (1018)

As you can see, there are a few minor advantages of the 1018 over the 1019 (highlighted in bold), the most notable being pre-outs for all speakers and 7 channel multi-channel analog input (as opposed to 5.1 channel on 1019)

However, if you don't require those specific features, you would do much better going in for the 1019 as opposed to the 1018.

NOTE: I have not owned both receivers. I just made the comparison for you. All the above information has been obtained from the Official Pioneer US Website.

1018 or 1019 under 500$ tax in.

I know 1018 was build on elite design, against 1019 is not. 1018 has more power than 1019 (130 RMS vs 120 RMS)

My major concern is about : Will 1019 be able to drive my current set-up ?

Current speaker setup:

Front : ES80 (JBL)
Center : ES25 (JBL) (looking for something else)
Rear : ES70 (JBL)
Sub : VDR-12 (Velodyne)

What do you think?

Thanks

Those power ratings are for single channel driven, and don't meant much when you are driving 5 channels. So, don't depend on them too much. I'm not sure if the 1018 would have more power driving 5 channels as compared to the 1019, though you could compare them based on the single channel driven ratings. Not too sure on that count.

If you need raw power, you could consider going for the 1018 and connecting an external amp, which would boost your power significantly. The 1018 has the pre-outs for 7 channels.

That being said, famous people have said, "The 1019 has ENOUGH power for MOST home setups."

What was your previous receiver and how well were the JBLs with it? Maybe, that can give an idea of how high you need to upgrade.

i am still having this problem, is there a solution?

If you search this thread for iPod problems, there was a similar problem posted about 3-4 weeks back. Search this thread for "iPod" and I'm sure you'll come across it. One reviewer had found this same problem with his iPod while reviewing it, and I think he connected the cable to the iPod while the receiver was searching for it (i.e. when the iPod button on the remote was pressed), and it worked. Try it out.

This will be my first receiver... Im noob on audio and try to change it

I actually use my sub on preout of my Pioneer Kuro 5020 and I removed original tv speaker to connect my ES80. (Really average quality)

But now, I could snap a deal (both are band new) on 1019 or 1018 and why im here.

Both look like really solide, but Im trying to get the one will be most appropriated

Im open on comments and suggestions

Thanks

What are the power ratings for your speakers? The impedance would be 8 ohms mostly. If you could give a little of the specifications for the speakers, it would be helpful. However, I'm sure, the 1019 would be able to drive those speakers.

I'm a bit of a noob myself. Learning the ways of HT myself. You'll get better advice from others here though.

Macfan, your help is needed on this one.