Official Onkyo TX-SR707 Thread [No Price Talk] - Page 114

Well, the 2nd board i got from That Guy On Ebay is only slightly better behaved than the last.

He appears to be under the impression that resetting the receiver and running it for a day is a good test of whether a refurbished board works properly.

IMHO getting it up and running, then leaving it in a cold basement for a few hours and then seeing if it starts right up is a better test. And you should do this several times, probably.

So i acquired a small bottle of kester organic no-clean low-solids flux, a transfer pipette, and a heat gun. Between ebay and harbor freight tools this cost me well under $20.

It appears that my initial diagnosis of a problematic Faroudja processor was probably incorrect.

I reflowed that chip alright, and then reflowed it again, and then i did some destructive experimentation on a worthless old video card to determine that, yes, I am getting the chip hot enough for reflow, and then reflowed the Faroudja processor a third time.

When that didn't help, I turned my attention to the DTS decoder chip in the corner of the board, which makes more sense anyway since it's involved in audio rather than video, and which is also a BGA chip.

You'll recognize this chip by the DTS logo on it. Edit: just noticed there are two chips bearing the DTS logo. I mean the smaller one, in the corner.

anyway, some hair dryer experiments suggested that the DTS chip only has to get a little bit warmer on my original board before it starts booting up properly. Holding my thumb on it for several minutes may even work.

I've gotten the impression that these failures started to really spike in october. When the weather gets colder in the northern hemisphere. My house gets quite cold - I live alone and i run hot so i set my thermostat to 65f between 6am and 8am, and between 6pm and 11pm. the rest of the time - aside from weekends - the house is allowed to cool to 50f since that is warm enough to keep the pipes from freezing and i'm either not home or in bed.

Anyway. I re-flowed the DTS chip just now and my original board, allowed it to cool to about 75f, and then tried it out and it worked right away. I'm now going to allow it to cool further before trying again.

So, in conclusion, I'm not sure that the Faroudja processor (the big chip) is or isn't a problem - it's still a reasonably likely suspect - but it appears that the DTS chip is also a potential problem.

When in doubt, reflow both. It only takes a couple minutes and a few drops of flux each.

I can't decide whether to send back the 2nd board i got from the ebay guy, or fix it myself and potentially sell it.

Ok so now another dilemma. The TX-SR707 isnt listed on the website under extended warranty options. I called onkyo but the rep seemed like he really wasnt interested in helping me out at all. He pretty much said that because they dont sell that model any more i cant buy a 2 year extended warranty for it

From the Onkyo site " Extended Warranties are Only available for current models sold by Onkyo.Only the models listed in the drop-down menu are eligible for extended warranty purchase, any model not listed is considered inactive and purchase of extended warranty coverage is not available. Extended Warranty is not available from Onkyo USA Corporation in any jurisdiction where extended warranties are regulated or deemed to be insurance under applicable state law, rule or regulation."

Looks like im going to sell it and buy a NR709 since i have 10 days left on my warranty.

I had that same discussion, live on the phone with Michael Russo at Onkyo. The person you spoke with is incorrect. Onkyo ships a NEW model every year AND you have to purchase the extended warranty within the 2 YEAR warranty. These two are contradictory to each other. And what you just said, contradicts the warranty terms yet again. Good luck getting a solid answer...

Out of curiosity, anybody know where i might be able to score another RC-742M remote for less than the going $45-$50 + ship? A used remote in fair condition would be great, but i don't see any on offer.

Do you have any recommendations of who I should speak with? I have about 8 days left before im out of warranty.

It doesnt really make sense, the site says you have to buy it before the 2 year warranty mark, but they also state that only current models support it.
Sigh

His name is right in my thread. Michael Russo, if you can reach him.

Starting to again get frustrated with Onkyo. As per their instructions I shipped my 707 to Onkyo for exchange, I shipped by UPS and it was received by Onkyo on Feb 01. I have followed up with a couple of emails since Onkyo received my 707 with no response.
I guess Monday I'll be sitting on the phone.

I'm happy to report that my 707 has been trouble-free for a solid week of daily use since my home flux & heat gun repair.

when i get some time I'll try and fix the 'refurbished' board i bought from that guy at that auction site who always seems to have these for sale.

I obtained a TX-SR707 that was exhibiting the no sound issue from my cousin. He lost his receipt and didn't want to mess with attempting to get it repaired, so I figured I'd see if I could find a "simple fix" online somewhere. I stumbled on this forum pretty quickly and after a few months of lurking was encouraged to see that people were having some success re-flowing the solder joints on the HDMI board with just a heat gun. I gave it a shot and so far (2 days later) so good. I couldn't find any liquid flux so I did the heat gun only method. Now that's it's working I bought some stick-on heatsinks and some external fans. I put the heatsinks on the ST and both of the DTS chips and the fans are just sitting on top of the cover blowing upward. I also added some perforations to the cover above the HDMI board to keep it cooler (hopefully).

My satisfaction/dissatisfaction is now back to satisfaction. Called Onkyo yesterday and identified there had been no communication from them and that they had received my receiver back on February 01. Within a half hour I received a call informing me I would receive a receiver upgrade and the receiver would be shipped by today. Today I received an email informing me the receiver is shipped and to expect the receiver by week's end...I am now again satisfied and expect I don't need to join the 709 forum. And thanks to this forum I will get the extended warranty.

I can't decide whether i would prefer to be in your shoes.

I have enough grief in my life without my AV rig dying on me. This episode with my 707 (still fixed!) has had a major impact on my cool. I am, as they say, up to my backside in alligators in many ways, and i NEED some entertaining from time to time, and i have cherished my TX-SR707 as a central component of my pressure relief valve.

I considered trying to argue "I'm just barely out of warranty" with onkyo. I hear it even works every now and then. I have a friend who is a licensed onkyo dealer who says he has heard many stories of Onkyo going above and beyond to make a customer happy.

but some people have been without an A/V receiver for a month or longer. I was only completely without mine for about 10 days and that had me wanting to punch someone in the gut.

It's even the little things. I have a Paradigm center channel and Ohm Walsh 3 (vintage about 1984 - look 'em up) fronts, and i have to set the level for the center channel about 6db down to get to even levels. Even when i had a workaround where i had to reset the receiver to watch a movie or TV had me pissed off during my usual re-charge time. Because i had to put up with a too-loud center channel or spend a couple minutes adjusting levels.

I recently (6 weeks ago) became a manager for the first time in my almost 20 year career. Having to argue with Onkyo for weeks to get to a resolution would probably push me to fire the guy i am trying to resist firing.

Onkyo needs to be more proactive about this issue. But instead it appears that they are hedging their bets that this problem will decrease come summer (due to the relatively small thermal differences required) and then increase again next fall when almost everybody is long out of their warranty period.

Which is pretty crappy.

I paid about $4 shipped on ebay for a 1oz bottle of Kester 951 which i presume was decanted from a much larger container. I used about 1/10th of it fixing my hdmi board, and that was with multiple failed attempts before i realized my mistake.

Received an upgrade 709 today, it is a sweet unit. Am pleased with Onkyo as I am very satisfied with the steps they took to make up for the failures of my 707.

ej0rge,

A little laziness on my part, local electronics store didn't have any in stock so I gave it a shot without flux. I think had I actually purchased the receiver I would have been a bit more insistent on doing it "right" but since it was a gift I was a little less cautious. BTW, it's still working going on a week now.

Yeah, the flux is mostly a Really Good Idea. so if it starts to flake out again, get the flux.

I fear I have the No Sound issue, however my symptoms are slightly different so I'm hoping it maybe something different (hdmi handshake)...

When I power on my components, the 707 comes on, however there is usually no sound. The speaker icons DO show up however. The only way to fix is to unplug and plug back in, then it works fine.

Has anyone had the no sound issue WITH the speaker icons? Most of the people with the no sound issue have reported the icons were NOT there, so I'm not sure if this is good or bad.

I am OUT of warranty, however I bought on a Discover card so I have an extra year due to that thankfully.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Yes, I've seen that manifestation in my own unit.

To elaborate on my previous post, it appears that either of the two BGA chips on the board may be problematic, and your precise manifestation may be different depending on which of the solder balls is disconnected.

We saw at least one member here who fixed his own board by reflowing just the ST chip.

That didn't work for me, and i had to reflow the Ti BGA chip as well.

Hint: You know a BGA chip by it's lack of visible legs.

It's possible you may have a bad joint on either or both chips, then. and this would make it behave differently.

Great, well, sounds like I will be filing a claim on my Discover Card extended warranty.

Hi all in the U.S

I have read this thread after finding it while "googling" about the now infamous "nosoundissue".
As I too had the same problem happening to my 707, which I have been very happy with for 27 months, I searched about the fixing of the problem. I came across numerous of hits regarding failed graphics cards for computers which dies due to overheat. The recipy to do attempts of repairing them seemed to me a bit, to say the least, odd. But as I didn´t have anything to lose I tried it. This is how I did:
Remove the HDMI board from the reciever, that was dead easy only needing a Philips #2 screwdriver and a pair of small pliers. Heat up your kitchen-oven to 200 degrees celsius (in Sweden). I used a digital Steak thermometer to get an actual reading. Put the board on a flat plate with aluminum foil with 5 stands made of foil bits wreckled to small pebbles for support. I put foil on all plastic connections and capacitors on the upper surface. Put it in the center of the oven, temp will drop so adjust the heating accordingly. I reached 200 degrees after about 3 mins. Then I Baked the board for an additional 6 mins. totalling 9 minutes. Open the lid and turn the heat off and let it cool down by itself. Remount the board and start it up. I was succesful! My reciever works again and I am very happy. Things to do next for me is to mount some cooling-fins from an old computer on the soundprocessor and the 2 IC´s with DD/DTS logos on them and mount a small comp.fan to cool them using the 12v trigger feed to power it.
The "rig" has now been used for 2 days without a problem, keeping my fingers crossed.
I encountered a lot of negative comments about this fix online but as I´m concerned this is NOT BS, since it has worked for me...so far.

What are you going to use for a repair quote for your discovery claim? I have my onkyo purchased on my amex, which also offers a extended warranty. I have not had to use it as of yet, but judging by this thread it is only a matter of time. Amex requires a copy of the warranty terms and a repair quote to pay out. What does your discover card require?

I might pick up a heat gun and some flux and try to re-flow the BGA. Is it really as simple as pouring the flux around the chip in question, rotating the card around to allow the flux to penetrate, blocking off the rest of the card with some cardboard and tinfoil and then heating the chip with a heatgun?

PS, I mentioned previously of my MUCH MUCH MUCH better experience with getting a Samsung TV with a well known problem fixed... well they still got slapped with a class action and settled: http://www.samsung.com/us/capacitorsettlement/

Given how Onkyo abuses their customers I hope some lawyer picks this up. Sadly, I think the pool of plaintiffs is too small, there were a lot more Samsung LCDs sold than Onkyo receivers.

Pretty much. My experience indicates that it might take more than one try, but yeah.

The cardboard is not necessary.

It is vitally important that you do not touch or move the board in any way while it is hot. Do the work somewhere you can be sure is well away from people and pets, and then just turn the heat gun off, place it nozzel-up on a stable surface so it doesn't start a fire, and back away slowly. Come back in 20 minutes.

With the cheapest harbor freight heat gun on 'low' it seemed to take about 2 minutes? but i don't have an accurate feel for it.

Edit: Start with 1 minute. Also, start with just the DTS chip in the back corner. Then try the ST chip. Repeat and increase time until you get there.

I've been doing a lot of reading and am going to give this a shot. There was some good stuff about reflowing PB-Free BGA's here: http://www.altera.com/literature/an/an353.pdf

If anyone has their unit apart, can someone get some measurements for me first (I don't have my unit handy)? I want to buy a heat sink in case I am successful in my repair. Is the ST chip 35mm x 35mm? The specs were unclear. Also, what's the clearance between the chip and the top of the stereo's chassis?

Here was my plan... tell me if it sounds about right...

Budget is about $80

Tools and Parts:
-Heatgun from Harbor Freight ($14)
-Laser guided non-contact thermometer from Harbor Freight ($35)
-Non-clean flux (from ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/No-Clean-Liq...-/270623217792 - hopefully it's not just a bottle of water... about $3.50 delivered)
-Paper towels and some masking tape (on hand)
-level (have one on hand already)
-aluminum foil
-BGA chip heat sink with thermal tape (like http://search.digikey.com/us/en/prod...125-ND/1284839 - about $15 with shipping)

1) Find a good level surface, cover with foil to protect it.
2) Tape an "L" of rolled up paper towels around two sides of the chip to catch the flux as it flows through.
3) Lift board to a 45 degree angle, pour flux along top side until it starts to flow through. Rock board back and forth so flux covers inside the BGA.
4) Rotate board 90 degrees, repeat step 3.
5) Remove paper towels and tape, clean up excess flux.
6) Place board flat and pre-heat entire board to 300F for 2 minutes
7) Heat BGA chip to 460F for 2 minutes
8) Remove heat and let cool for 20 minutes
9) Test
10) If working, apply heat sink.

Test for a few weeks and then sell on CL - buy non Onkyo receiver.

There is somewhere between 1/2" and 3/4" of clearance. But i don't think the heatsink needs to be very big.

I think the ST chip is closer to 40mm square. There is also at least 5mm of overhang available on all sides.


You can get the IR thermometer for closer to $16 on ebay from US sellers. Even less if you want to wait for it to come from hong kong.

Surface tension is such that i don't think you need to lose sleep over exactly how level the table is. If a marble doesn't immediately roll off you're good.

You will know from the powerful fumes that the bottle of flux isn't just water. I did some research and discovered that you can buy kester 951 either in a felt tip pen applicator (which is a fantastic applicator for board-level work) or in a gallon jug at significant cost and significant shipping cost if you can't find a local vendor. So the ebay vendors selling small quantities are a godsend.


Since this is 'no clean' flux i haven't worried much about overflow.

You will find that no-clean flux flows like rubbing alcohol, or more accurately like highly volatile organic solvents. Way thin - moreso than water. Excellent wetting properties.

4 minutes might be a bit longer than you want to have these things that hot. 2 minutes at 460f seems excessive. It takes seconds for the solder to reflow.

I have an IR thermometer and when i reflowed the BGA Ti chip in the corner - which ultimately rendered my 707 rock solid reliable (after just the ST chip only got me half there) - I just heated it to 460f for maybe 10 seconds and i was good to go.

I wasn't even bothering with the tinfoil heat shield at that point.

Give some consideration to your work surface. I used a 3/8" thick slab of plate glass, since i have one that i bought for just this kind of abuse. Formica, vinyl laminate, simulated or real wood grain may be thoroughly ruined. A metal surface may result in unpleasant thermal surprises. Perhaps a scrap of plywood?

I considered that last step, but decided to stick with the devil i know rather than the devil i don't know.

NDLBox,

I used used a similar heat sink to what you linked to on all three of my chips. They came in a smaller form factor so I was able to apply several to each chip. I really have no idea how effective they'll be, but figured it was better than nothing. I also added some fans and extra perforations to the top of the case.

The real test, which I haven't had the nerve to do yet, is to get the unit hot enough to go into thermal shut down and then see if if the HDMI board fails. I figure if the board survives that then I should be good long term.

I'm just assuming that this unit has a thermal protection circuit like most of the AVR's I've owned. Of course this may be the cause of the no sound issue in the first place (<- utter speculation).

The fact that I was able to solve a problem that was most likely caused by too much heat by applying even more heat is a little unsatisfying.

Those specs from the BGA vendor were interesting, they said the problem with lead free solder is the flowing temp is much higher than leaded solder so the window between the temperature needed to re-flow the solder and the damage point of a PCB board and components is much smaller. My thought was the chip will actually be insulating somewhat so it should take some time to get the solder underneath it up to temp.... I might try 1min then. Here is what they say about it:


This whole thing irritates me, why can't we just use lead? It's probably like lead paint - the problem is overblown and the replacement products are sub-par.

I should correct myself. the plastic package on the top of the ST chip is close to 35mm square.

I decided to wait until my receiver was reliable before heatsinking it, but i will be using a chipset heatsink salvaged from an old motherboard. If it lasted two years with no cooling, i figure this should be plenty.

In the for what it's worth department, I have also had the no-sound issue with my over two year old SR-707. It started I think before it was even a year old. It only occurs when I'm fast forwarding a program on my DISH DVR and fortunately fairly seldom; something like every two months or so. In my case I found it fixes itself (so far) by a simple turn off and on. Irritating but not irritating enough to pursue a real fix.

I was a confirmed Pioneer receiver, but went with the 707 because it powered all my 10.1 speaker system, something no Pioneer receiver did at the time. I’m going back to Pioneer next purchase.

On a completely different matter, I wanted a second duplicate remote for the 707 but thought the going price was exorbitant. I found a solution in a very inexpensive Logitech Harmony 300 universal remote, a basic unit that you program from the Logitech web site.

I ordered everything. How long after applying flux do you have to re-flow the solder?

PS - ordered a themometer, heatgun, flux and heatsink... total spend was approx $70. Total novice at this, so lets hope I don't end up burning my new house down!