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Peavey IPR class D amps - Page 3

post #61 of 958
On another thread Bosso posted the Marathon Ma-Dj5000 amp...Its $250 and these are its specs.


Dj series power amplifier

power handling:
2 x 700 watts @ 8 ohms,
2 x 1400 watts @ 4 ohms,
up to 5000 watts @ 8 ohms bridge

weight: 16 lbs

Im curious!!
post #62 of 958
How do you have 5000 watts bridged at 8ohms with the stereo specs so much lower?

lol, I like the "up to" part. Probably 5000 watts max in .1% of situations for a max time of 1ms.
post #63 of 958
Must be PEAK power!!!
post #64 of 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by ENiGmA1987 View Post

Doesn't "continuous" generally mean continuous? As in 24 hours of continuous power? I am confused as to how continuous can have any other meaning when it comes to amplifier power...

I'm with you on this one. When manufacturers claim continuous it should
imply the amplifier can operate for a long period of time, not 1 second
samples ... in the marketing world, to them, they don't understand the
continuous concept and there is a time element involved as real world tests
have revealed how badly many amplifiers perform when subject to "continous rms testing".
post #65 of 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"Continous for how long ?"

You're the one who cares.

"Storage caps aka rail caps won't be higher in potential than the rails themselves "

But those rails can be at higher potential than is ever delivered to the speaker terminal.

In principle you could have the storage caps at 1000 V PWM'ing a lower voltage audio signal through a filter cap to the speakers.

I'm pretty sure I'm undefeated at smelling out amplifier turds, 100% track
record by using common sense electronics analysis. Not to mention many
people have learned from my amplifier babble as posted on AVS over
the years.

My money is that Peavey created a turd "as advertised". It's not a turd in
reality as it's real numbers will be less and it's ok if you know what it really
does, but the marketing people need spanking.

You can theorize on how this may be possible, but to me the discussion
is simple -> it's an over marketed product. What is really does will eventually
be revealed someday and people will accept it for what it is vs. marketing
babble. If for some silly reason I'm wrong in my analysis and this goose lays
the golden egg, then it would be my first failed attempt at amplifier
analysis.
post #66 of 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

On another thread Bosso posted the Marathon Ma-Dj5000 amp...Its $250 and these are its specs.


Dj series power amplifier

power handling:
2 x 700 watts @ 8 ohms,
2 x 1400 watts @ 4 ohms,
up to 5000 watts @ 8 ohms bridge

weight: 16 lbs

Im curious!!

I'd be shocked if it did > 2kw using an rms test, both channels driven.
post #67 of 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Th3_uN1Qu3 View Post

Meh, i'd just mail Peavey and ask them the true RMS power. Or, when i get a scope, i promise i'll buy the latest and greatest in pro audio tech (as long as it's $300 ), and test it for you.

I went to an audio store today to ask for a subwoofer amp for a friend's car. I said i wanted about 150 RMS in bridged mode, the sales guy recommended me a Magnat amp, 75wpc, 150 bridged he said. While the amp had "600 Watts" written on it. At least he was honest.

I ended up only buying a sub, since i'd found a similar amp for sale online for a better price.

Over inflated amplifier specs have been around for decades. They were really
popular in the 70's and 80's at the flea markets, 500w - 1000w amplifiers and when
you looked inside, there was hardly anything there electronics-wise.
post #68 of 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

Over inflated amplifier specs have been around for decades.

Yeah, but back then, only people buying things at flea markets believed them.
post #69 of 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

I'd be shocked if it did > 2kw using an rms test, both channels driven.

So would I and I think everyone else......the more important question to me is how long will it do 2kW if it all?
post #70 of 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Th3_uN1Qu3 View Post

Yeah, but back then, only people buying things at flea markets believed them.

People still do not believe in the specs here either but we do buy and find out what the true output is. Its fun to banter all day and actually do nothing for some. I think at some point its a waste of time discussing and a simple test needs to be run.

Most people do not even use 1000Watts so if they can do that then their still great for their price tag.
post #71 of 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

I'm pretty sure I'm undefeated at smelling out amplifier turds, 100% track
record by using common sense electronics analysis. Not to mention many
people have learned from my amplifier babble as posted on AVS over
the years.

My money is that Peavey created a turd "as advertised". It's not a turd in
reality as it's real numbers will be less and it's ok if you know what it really
does, but the marketing people need spanking.

You can theorize on how this may be possible, but to me the discussion
is simple -> it's an over marketed product. What is really does will eventually
be revealed someday and people will accept it for what it is vs. marketing
babble. If for some silly reason I'm wrong in my analysis and this goose lays
the golden egg, then it would be my first failed attempt at amplifier
analysis.

Marketing runs the audio world actually, one just needs to follow any high end discussion to realize this so Im not surprised nor do I care. Again, someone will buy it, someone will measure it and all of this commentary will be meaningless to those who know what it truely does.
post #72 of 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Marketing runs the audio world actually, one just needs to follow any high end discussion to realize this so Im not surprised nor do I care. Again, someone will buy it, someone will measure it and all of this commentary will be meaningless to those who know what it truely does.

Wow... I have to admit that this is pretty much correct. +1
post #73 of 958
If I designed a class D amp with +-110VDC rails, then I sure as heck would market it as 6000W bridged into 4 ohms...even if it was only a transient spec.

The Crest factor of live music is easily in the 20-30dB range, so worst case 6000W peaks would be required when running an average power draw of 6W. 6W is more than attainable with 400W coming from the wall...so now you got an extra 394W for the SMPS to refill the supply banks. With 20dB crest, you're talking 60W average power draw for 6000W peaks. 6W to 60W is going to be somewhere around 100dB to 110dB SPL average with most PA speakers.

Class AB amplifiers are usually rated with a limit based on distortion and generally have lots more voltage rail available, so the ratings of class D amplifiers will tend to look bloated when the supply rails are brought up to the same voltage to handle transients. Class AB amplifiers also tend to clip more softly, whereas class D will be clean and then hard clip and hit hard distortion real fast. It's important to have lots of rail voltage with Class D if you want to maintain transient performance.

That said, it looks like the Peavey is actually rated for 2000W per channel into 4 ohms, which would come out to around +-130V rails. The supply must start sagging when trying to pull more power. In fact, if the feedback is good, then there's a good 40V of sag that can happen on the supply and still hit the rated spec.

I wonder what the DSP is like in these amplifiers....bummer there doesn't seem to be any user manuals available for download. If it has a richer feature set than the XTi, then I could see myself possibly being interested.
post #74 of 958
Mike,

I largely agree w/your analysis, but

"The Crest factor of live music is easily in the 20-30dB range,"

But it's a rare recording that captures the dynamics of live music.

For myself, I want the amp to handle the worst case HT scenario.

This would be something like WOTW with many sec of high level bass.

Still, this isn't a continuous sine wave, and I imagine the crest factor is at least 6 dB, which makes the arguments for continuous output at rated power flawed.
post #75 of 958
Well all I can say is the amplifier was designed for the sound reinforcement market where the crest factors are huge.

It's not like you're gonna find a driver that can eat 6000W anyway. I think it would be wise to run multiple amps if you're gonna be running that much power continuously.
post #76 of 958
Here is the QSC PL380, a new design that streets around $3500.
http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amp...owerlight3.htm




A quick glance at the literature reveals 4000 watts per channel (8000 watt
amplifier), 24 pounds.

Dig deeper and you find this.
http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amp..._FullRange.pdf

The 4kw/ch rating is a 1khz signal @ 1% THD @ 2 ohms.

Notice the rating drops to 2500w per channel when rated at 20hz - 10khz
@ 4 ohms, then 1500w @ 20khz. Note, no 2 ohm test shown for this test,
why not? it can't do it ? haha

2500w/channel is nice for subwoofer duty @20hz, but that is a 5kw amplifier
not 8kw in this application.

Then you have to ask how can Peavey do these big claims at 1/3 less
weight and 6x cheaper in cost. haha

Look inside the PL380, there is hardly anything inside. Imagine if you
gutted it from 24 pounds to 6 pounds, what do you have inside ? air ?
post #77 of 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by MBentz View Post

It's not like you're gonna find a driver that can eat 6000W anyway.

I believed the same until i saw the Fi BTL 18" plugged into a 120v wall socket. Steve Meade's system (you must know the guy), he was upgrading his woofers to the new surrounds so he thought he'd blow the old ones up... Thing is, he couldn't.

Dual 1.2 ohm coils in series, that makes for exactly 6000W @ 120v. And yup that's continuous power. After 5 minutes the thing didn't even get warm, and keep in mind it's rated for 4000W peak. By hooking it in parallel he tripped the breakers in his garage after a few seconds. No wonder, since that was 20kW going to the driver. And it still was fine after that.

So yes there are speakers that will handle 6kW. But as you said, it's best to have more than one amp powering this kind of beasts.

That QSC amp looks good, but of course, the price tag does not look so good.
post #78 of 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post


Look inside the PL380, there is hardly anything inside. Imagine if you
gutted it from 24 pounds to 6 pounds, what do you have inside ? air ?

So will be good for all those Air guitar player out there
post #79 of 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Th3_uN1Qu3 View Post

I believed the same until i saw the Fi BTL 18" plugged into a 120v wall socket. Steve Meade's system (you must know the guy), he was upgrading his woofers to the new surrounds so he thought he'd blow the old ones up... Thing is, he couldn't.

Dual 1.2 ohm coils in series, that makes for exactly 6000W @ 120v. And yup that's continuous power. After 5 minutes the thing didn't even get warm, and keep in mind it's rated for 4000W peak. By hooking it in parallel he tripped the breakers in his garage after a few seconds. No wonder, since that was 20kW going to the driver. And it still was fine after that.

So yes there are speakers that will handle 6kW. But as you said, it's best to have more than one amp powering this kind of beasts.

That QSC amp looks good, but of course, the price tag does not look so good.

How do you get 6000 watts continuously out of a wall socket? You are confusing the DCR with the actual impedance at 60 hz. Actual power applied would be less than what you figured.
post #80 of 958
"It's not like you're gonna find a driver that can eat 6000W anyway."

It's not like they use just one driver.
post #81 of 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Mike,

I largely agree w/your analysis, but

"The Crest factor of live music is easily in the 20-30dB range,"

But it's a rare recording that captures the dynamics of live music.

For myself, I want the amp to handle the worst case HT scenario.

This would be something like WOTW with many sec of high level bass.

Still, this isn't a continuous sine wave, and I imagine the crest factor is at least 6 dB, which makes the arguments for continuous output at rated power flawed.

Right on Noah,

There are many contributing factors to how much power you need and for what duration, over what bandwidth.

We have lots of posturing here, and little reference to reality. I'm as apprehensive of anything "Peavey" as anyone, but they are competent. They just have a specific audience and range of uses they tend to serve and design for. Sometimes those needs can overlap with home use under certain circumstances.

Someone with the time to endlessly argue here should do some quick analysis of some popular demo scenes to check peak and average power levels for different durations. It seems those enamored with hardware tend to get all excited about cool sounding specs and forget to define the problem/task/application at hand. For all the talk of bang-for-buck here, I'm quite amused how little thought or discussion time is given to this matter.

While we need sustained power for more than a few milliseconds, we don't need it for 12 hours. Similarly, subwoofer use at a nightclub that's continuously bouncing off clip limiters has higher sustained requirements vs. peak than we do for home theater and home music listening. My off-the-cuff expectation is that for heavy subwoofer use with clip protection in the chain we need peak to 1/2 power for 5-15 seconds, 1/4 power for 2-10 mins, and 1/6th-1/10th long term.

That's a potential for a LOT of cost savings vs. full RMS for 2 hours. We haven't even looked at the real impedance vs. bandwidth considerations, which can be accounted for when looking at specific design implementations.

Some food for thought.
post #82 of 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Right on Noah,

There are many contributing factors to how much power you need and for what duration, over what bandwidth.

We have lots of posturing here, and little reference to reality. I'm as apprehensive of anything "Peavey" as anyone, but they are competent. They just have a specific audience and range of uses they tend to serve and design for. Sometimes those needs can overlap with home use under certain circumstances.

Someone with the time to endlessly argue here should do some quick analysis of some popular demo scenes to check peak and average power levels for different durations. It seems those enamored with hardware tend to get all excited about cool sounding specs and forget to define the problem/task/application at hand. For all the talk of bang-for-buck here, I'm quite amused how little thought or discussion time is given to this matter.

While we need sustained power for more than a few milliseconds, we don't need it for 12 hours. Similarly, subwoofer use at a nightclub that's continuously bouncing off clip limiters has higher sustained requirements vs. peak than we do for home theater and home music listening. My off-the-cuff expectation is that for heavy subwoofer use with clip protection in the chain we need peak to 1/2 power for 5-15 seconds, 1/4 power for 2-10 mins, and 1/6th-1/10th long term.

That's a potential for a LOT of cost savings vs. full RMS for 2 hours. We haven't even looked at the real impedance vs. bandwidth considerations, which can be accounted for when looking at specific design implementations.

Some food for thought.

In general terms I agree re power requirements and durations. However, power output in amps has traditionally been for continuous power, and if a product is rated by something else, we get into not being able to compare different products well.

Marketing people can be very creative; at the extreme end we have computer speakers with 100W PMPO from an LM380.
post #83 of 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

How do you get 6000 watts continuously out of a wall socket?

Out of a dedicated garage system you can get 6000 watts. It's built to hold many power tools running at the same time. And i don't think a 18" woofer would be anywhere near resonance at 60Hz.

@ A9X-308, very well said.
post #84 of 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Someone with the time to endlessly argue here should do some quick analysis of some popular demo scenes to check peak and average power levels for different durations. It seems those enamored with hardware tend to get all excited about cool sounding specs and forget to define the problem/task/application at hand. For all the talk of bang-for-buck here, I'm quite amused how little thought or discussion time is given to this matter.

I've done some crest factor measurements on the signal coming out of my mixing console when mixing FOH....I'm generally running between 30-40dB of crest when the overall SPL from the mix position is about 90-95dBA. 20-30dB is more normal, but I'm a transient junky.

At home when listening to music, my favorite recordings are in the 20-30dB range with a rare few pushing 60dB.

Most main stream music that still sounds decent, is more like 10-15dB crest since they compress the snot out of it.

I've not measured movies, but I think overall crest factor is going to be a bit misleading due to the duration of some of the crazy low frequency sound effects.

As far as I'm concerned, all marketing specs are meaningless without understanding how they are derived. And I agree that it is very important to understand the source material first in order to understand what the system needs to be capable of. I think the typical audiophile approach is to try and overkill everything, but the reality of engineering is that there are always compromises to be made.
post #85 of 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

The 4kw/ch rating is a 1khz signal @ 1% THD @ 2 ohms.

Notice the rating drops to 2500w per channel when rated at 20hz - 10khz
@ 4 ohms, then 1500w @ 20khz. Note, no 2 ohm test shown for this test,
why not? it can't do it ? haha

Actually, the power goes down when you have more frequencies playing at once because a broad band signal contains more energy than just a single frequency of equal amplitude.
post #86 of 958
Got hold of A Demo Peavey IPR-2000 (think 700w per ch) unit A couple days ago off the Peavey Rep so the Case is A little rough,

All I can say is this new gen poweramps are truly Extreamly lite and sound very good to my ear, the Fan is speed controlled and is near silent like my CS series..

So far we ran it for an hour or more with some pro Audio Peavey PR12's pushing it pretty hard and didnt break A Sweat with no heat coming from the rear of the case So it Apears to run extreamly efficiently...

Took some pics for A matter of intrest....

Cheers....
LL
LL
LL
LL
post #87 of 958
More Pics,

Cheers...
LL
LL
post #88 of 958
My Mate may Be able to get hold of an Australian model IPR 6000 and we will take some pics,
The Peavey IPR 2000 is all the Rep had on Demo and was able to keep the IPR 2000 for 7 days..

Cheers...
post #89 of 958
Good pics.

Can't read the part number on the controller chip on the PS board to be sure, but that does look like resonant SMPS topology there.
post #90 of 958
Thank Oklahoma Wolf,

I know I prob went over board on posting so many pics but I was hoping the pics were good anough So you guys can get A good Idea whats in these new Gen Peavey Amps, All I can say is that the IPR 2000 has plenty of power on tap when connected to the Peavey pr12's Appear's to perform extremely well inc producing plenty of bottom end and very clean sounding..

Cheers....
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