*OFFICIAL* Denon AVR 1610/590 owner's thread - Page 15

Not with that setup -- Nanosats are TINY speakers. 150Hz is probably the correct crossover setting, Nanosats (and any other teeny little speaker with smaller than 4-inch drivers) are probably rolling off steeply at 150Hz... Run all 6 positions and see what you get, but I would stick with 150Hz if that is what Audyssey measures. If one of the speakers gets set to 200Hz it's OK to lower it to 150, won't hurt anything.

Although not explicitly recommended, you might want to also experiment with 120Hz just to see if you get a more pleasing sub/sat bland. Remember, the final judge is your ears.

Don't go lower than 120 though, those are really tiny speakers and honestly 150Hz is probably accurate.

well, neither.... and both....

if you really understand what's happening there really isn't a conflict between the two.

the way it works is this:

1. Audyssey measures all of your speakers and creates EQ filters across their operating range, all the way down to their -3dB point (i.e. basically, the lowest usable bass extension). So, let's say your Nanosats are found to have a -3dB point around 140Hz or so.... Audyssey will create filters down to 140Hz but not below that, to avoid boosting a speaker in a range which it cannot really play.

2. Audyssey reports its measurements to the receiver, and the receiver picks the next higher crossover point. On the Denon, the two closest choices are 120Hz and then 150Hz, so the Denon (which "knows" that the -3dB point is 140Hz now) sets it at 150Hz.

3. The subwoofer is filtered over its entire operating range, typically up to 250Hz (which is the max crossover setting on the AVR). So, at a 150Hz crossover point, the Nanosats get the benefit of Audyssey MultEQ filters all the way down to that crossover, and then below 150Hz the subwoofer picks up (also being filtered by MultEQ).

4. The reason Audyssey does not recommend LOWERING a crossover is that you will now have a region which is unfiltered by MultEQ. For example, let's say you lower the crossover to 120Hz manually. Now, there will be a small section (120Hz to 140Hz) that will fall outside the bands of Audyssey's filters; the Nanosats roll off at 140Hz but the sub doesn't pick up until the crossover of 120Hz. That band from 120-140Hz will be a "hole" in the Audyssey filters.

Thus, Audyssey as an "official" position recommends not lowering the crossovers so that you (1) don't ask the speakers to play frequencies they have been measured not to be able to in your room and (2) don't have a frequency band that is unfiltered by MultEQ.

Now, on a PRACTICAL level, which is where I'm coming from, the fact of the matter is that these crossovers are picked by the receiver and may not be the "optimal" crossover in terms of creating a smooth response with your system. So, taking the above example, you might find that TO YOU things sound better, with a smoother blend between sub and satellites, at a 120Hz crossover. Bass above 100Hz becomes progressively more localizable and creating a seamless blend between tiny satellites and a subwoofer can be tricky.... so, you may find that it's the "lesser of two evils" to lower the crossover slightly, such that it's worth having a small "hole" in the filtered response in order to create a smoother blend in your room between subwoofer and satellites.

The situation becomes even more extreme with a super high crossover like 200Hz. That is the next higher step up from 150Hz in the Denon's crossover settings.... so, let's say that some of your speakers are rolling off at 140Hz, some at 160Hz (maybe due to room acoustics, how close to the wall they are, etc.). The ones that roll off at 140Hz will be set to 150Hz crossover by the receiver... but the ones that roll off at 160Hz will default all the way up to a 200Hz crossover. Again, lowering that crossover to 150Hz would "technically" be against the Audyssey recommendation, but it may sound a lot better to have a tiny (150-160Hz) band that is uncorrected considering the tradeoff of not sending all that localizable bass (150-200Hz) to the subwoofer.

So, while the "official" position in the Setup Guide has to be "don't lower the crossovers" in order to avoid confusion and gray area... on a practical level, lowering the crossovers one notch might end up improving the system to your ears. I would NOT lower the crossover drastically -- for example, if you are getting 150Hz as the set crossover do NOT go all the way down to 80Hz! Those tiny speakers are rolling off well above that and you will create a big hole in the response of your system. But a SLIGHT change downward, e.g. trying out 120Hz, may end up working out as a net positive. So the "batpig recommendation" is, if you end up with a very high crossover (like 200Hz) go ahead and try out lowering the crossover slightly, and let your ears be the judge of which sounds better.

Make sense?

denon botched the online specs for that model. the manual and product sheet have the correct information -- 171mm (6.7") tall. If you look at the photos it is obvious that the 1610/590 model uses the same chassis as the 1910/790 which has the correct dimensions listed online.



really? I see the same number (171mm or 6-47/64") in the product sheet as in the manual.



considering you are cutting it THAT close I wouldn't do it... you would have only millimeters of space on the top and bottom with no room for ventilation.



your AVR has wheels!! awesome!

Welcome Marcel,

1) from what I can tell the S-Video input is basically useless unless you get the Denon-branded iPod dock. I don't think anyone has tried to "trick" the receiver by using something else with the S-Video connection, but I wouldn't get my hopes up. Can you not have the cable company swap in a newer box with component video connections?

2) correct, all video will be converted to digital output over HDMI so you would only need to connect one HDMI cable from AVR to your TV.

The only other thing to note is that you NEED a subwoofer with those RM20 speakers.

got it.... so, for now, you will probably just have to use the regular "yellow" composite video cable instead of S-Video.


they will function, they will just sound terrible. Small satellite speakers like those Polks are meant to be combined with a subwoofer to fill in the low end frequencies. A speaker that small is simply incapable of producing the lower bass octaves, and so everything will sound very "thin" and lifeless without a subwoofer filling in the lower frequencies.

these so-called "sub/sat" setups are very popular because you can utilize small speakers that are easy to place and don't make your wife angry, and then fill in the bottom end with a larger woofer speaker. Because bass frequencies are "non directional" the subwoofer can be tucked away in a corner or next to the couch; then you can place the satellites speakers (which produce the more directional high frequencies) around the room to create the soundstage, and your brain will blend the sounds together into a unified whole.

However, without a subwoofer the system doesn't work, because all of the bottom is missing, and everything will sound shrill and strained.

You don't necessarily need to have a huge, powerful subwoofer that will blow the roof off, even a small 8-inch sub will work. Without that extra woofer rounding out the bottom though the speakers will not sound very good.

The "muddled" sound is probably more about the lack of subwoofer than the lack of power. You are using bookshelf speakers which are simply going to sound distorted when driven super hard with movie soundtracks. If you added a sub and crossed over at 80-100Hz you would be gaining power and headroom all around. Audyssey calibration will also help with this, since (1) some of that "muddling" could be the room reflections overwhelming the sound (something room EQ will mitigate) -- in an untreated room most speakers are going to start to sound like crap when you crank it loud -- and (2) Dynamic EQ makes things sounds so much better at moderate volumes that you won't end up being tempted to crank it as much.

All that being said.... you have a large enough room and those speakers aren't super efficient that you might appreciate a little bit of extra headroom in the amps. If you can afford the extra I doubt you will be disappointed.... but the 1610 would probably also do just fine if you added the sub (which again I think is the real problem). The power difference is fairly minimal, maybe 1-2dB of extra headroom at most.

I'm not familiar with that sub specifically but any small sub will do. As you say it doesn't have to blow the roof off, you live in an apartment, but it just has to do a nice job filling in the low end a bit to add some fullness to the sound.

Checking the specs, that looks like a nice sub (certainly a nice wood veneer, good WAF) but you will probably have to keep the volume down on it, looks like it has decent power actually. Adding an isolation riser like the Auralex SubDude will help decouple that sub from the floor and will help with not p'ing off the neighbors.

The 1910 definitely has more "room to grow" overall, there's no question. I can't say if it's "worth it" per se because it's really about your personal balance of budget vs needs/wants. The 1610 is perfectly fine if you don't NEED the extras of the 1910 (e.g. Zone 2, 7.1, 4th HDMI, etc). And again the power difference is fairly minor, considering you live in an apartment I doubt you are truly pushing the limits of your amps.

Also, the MA Bronze series are still "entry-level" speakers mind you, and aren't going to require high-end amplification to drive.