Denon AVR-4310CI Thread - Page 139

Again, it's pretty sad that manufacturers operate this way. They did not always do that. Forced recalls and gov't & lawsuits aside, it should not happen in the first place. The quality of many (most/all) things has gone downhill, over the last 2 decades +/-.

"Good Enough" and "Cheaper" has become our standard.

There are still some companies out there who build with excellent quality and reliability - even though at premium price points. I have come to learn (again, sadly) that you almost always get what you pay for. If paying a premium for quality and reliability is the cost for that deliverable, I'll always go that route.

My Pioneer Elite 141 display is an excellent example of that philosophy. I know, someone is bound to say. "Maybe that's why Pioneer went out of the business." And, while that is partially true, it is largely because, as consumers, many of us are willing to settle for "good enough" - because we shop price vs. value. Southwest Airlines is the perfect example. We'll herd onto planes like cattle, to save $50. Really?

In any event, I am done with Denon. I love my 4310, but soon the upgrade bug will bite and I will relegate it to another owner and move on. Realizing fully that I will have to spend perhaps 2X-3X the cost, to upgrade - in quality and reliability and features. But, then again... that's why it is called "upgrading".

Problem is, (and before we lose track, I DO agree with you believe it or not ) everything today is OUTSOURCED to other countries. Still amazes me how it is so cheap to have things made abroad, and can be shipped here on a slow, fuel guzzling boat, then be transported to the "manufactuerer" then shipped out AGAIN to dealers, than it is to just be made here, putting people to work, more environmentally responsible, and having quality products. Just amazing. Competition is one thing, but this is beyond competition.

Denon will give you a RMA number and you could then take it to the Authorized Denon Repair Center in Mountain View. This was the option they gave me at least, but I live over 100 miles away so I purchased the NIC from pacparts last October.

+1, I too will get the upgrade bug soon and will repurpose the 4310 as I did with the 3805 and then shop for something that has better quality and customer support. I know that it exsists as I have experienced it with companies like SVS, Emotiva, Definitive Technology. I recently had a Logitec Dinovo wireless keyboard (not cheap at $200) that wouldn't charge so I contacted Logitec via email regarding the matter and end story is they sent me a brand new keyboard and charger despite the fact that I had bought the item over 2 years prior and didn't have a invoice. That is how customer service should work .

I build PC's in one of my other expensive hobbies so I think I can do the repair myself. I got my 4310 on a very good BB clearance deal as a lot of us have here. By doing this myself my warranty will most likely be voided so I do not advocate anyone doing this network card fix themselves without excepting the risk.

I have already discussed this with BB Greek Squad and they said to bring in the card and the 4310 and they would do the fix which might not void the warranty. I suggested this to them and they thought it was a unique idea.

It would cost me nothing since I purchased for $60.00 an extended 4 year warranty just for this issue. If I do this myself then I'm out all around. I never puchase these warranties and wish I had not now as my card failed in 2 1/2 months and I'd rather do the work myself.

Yea.. I never get the EW's. They are just pure profit for the seller. And, in almost every case, if something fails, it is almost always within the warranty period.

If you do a careful job, no one will know and "voiding warranty" won't be a concern.

As I have stated in this forum I really like the sound of the Denon so much I just sold my Onkyo 885 preamp. i usually hold onto what I buy for a while so I hope the upgrade bug does not bite me soon.

I just want the 4310 to last until the Denon 4311's go on clearance, I'm a bargain hunter. I have no need for the amps as I have 4 sitting around. The 4311 was designed for those wanting this kind of setup.

I actually had a 4311 and returned it as overkill for my den setup. I had no idea that I would like the Denon sound enough to get rid of my Onkyo which I was very statisfied with.

I'm still toying with getting the Onkyo 5508 but I want to know the sound quality. I may still sell the 4310 after I get it fixed. People say they hate the look and design of the Onkyo, I like the look especially when racked.

And this is where our differences lie. The ONLY thing worth 'upgrading' to, in my opinion, would be to 3D/1.4 HDMI, of which I have no interest. I am not interested in, nor do I desire more than one sub. The 4310ci has every feature I could want, with the exception of Pandora instead of that crap Rhapsody and Napster, neither of which I am willing to pay for. But no problem there as I have Pandora on my streaming device anyway hence being a non-issue.

I could upgrade to Audyssey XT 32, but I'm good with Audyssey XT. It puts a smile on my face everytime I listen to the 4310.

While I agree getting a new keyboard 2 years after the fact and with no receipt is nice, it is NOT the norm for Logitech. They simply could not stay in business doing things like that on a regular basis. Simple matter of business 101. Don't get me wrong, it does happen, but rarely. Example: Our washing machine went out (a stupid $25 bearing that cost over $300 to replace as it is/was an intregal part of the tub housing) a couple of months ago. Went to buy a new one, not really being able to afford it since I am out of work, and fortunately came across a $1000 washer being sold due to some scratches and dents, for $300! The catch was I had to pay for a 5YEAR extended warranty. Total cost w/tax was under $550! I brought it home and imediately tried it out (clothes piling up) and the damn thing would walk all over the laundry room. So I called for service. Long story short and 5 repair visits later, at a cost of OVER $1000 to the warranty company, and I got what equates to a brand spanking new, perfect machine! But this isn't the norm. If it were, things would cost ALOT more than they do already.

Thanks for the tip. That's what I'm afraid they would do too. I'd hate to have to drive another hour to drop it off and be without it for weeks again. And that's not to guarantee they'll fix it this time.
I'll call them and find out what they will do.

Agreed... partially

For me and this is my personal opinion only: 3D in its current technological state, requiring glasses for viewing - is, from a quality perspective, horrible. Since that will be the state of 3D technology for the foreseeable future, I have ZERO interest in it. So, that "feature" is a who-cares.

From an upgrade perspective, however, dual subs would be a desired future state, since that would significantly improve my audio experience (and I have a great SW already - two would be amazing).

So, XT32 fit's that bill nicely. And, with XT32 is the ability to go further and get PRO

All that said, I will go with separate components for my next upgrade. A quality pre-processor, such as an Anthem Statement D2V,or something in that class, will run the front end of my audio/video. The new Marantz that was jsut reviewed in both Stereophile and Home Theater would be a nice processor. It doesn't have XT32 however, so that's a show stopper. And, a multichannel amplifier, such as the Parasound A51/A2, will drive the speakers.

As I said, that will be a significant cost premium, over my 4310... or even a top of the line Denon. But, I am done with Denon!

Like you, I could care less about the little "features"... Pandora, Rhapsody, Napster, etc. I don't even want the cheesy height/width speaker configuration. It sounds like ****. Possibly, 7.x with rears, but I had that and went back to 5.x sound.

Just give me the best possible sound, the rest is noise

Your 4310 is Audyssey Pro-ready already. Man, that has a nice ring to it.

Yes, I was going to say that but you beat me to the punch SoM...

As for 2 subs, I also have one helluva nice DIY sub that if commercial would easily exceed the $1200+ mark. And I like alot of STRONG bass but anymore than what I have (again, to me) would be nothing but overkill.

To me, the SQ of the 4310 really would be hard to improve upon unless, as was stated, one was to go substantially higher in cost. But even then, there is what is known as diminishing return on ones investment. Is it wrong to spend a $3000 premium to get a second sub out jack and one level higher of Audyssey? Maybe, but I for one won't fault anyone for it as it isn't my money or my ears. But for me the incremental increase in SQ just doesn't justify the cost.

I just sold my old speakers on the bay. I looked at the purchasers past feedback and items bought and one just floored me. Guy bought a $100 ToSlink cable. The description stated, and I quote, "electrical interference is virtually eliminated"!
Amazing the gulliblness of people in this hobby. Fiber Optics (ToSlink cable)is impervious to electrical interference as is! I presume it was purchased for the purpose of testing only as he also bought an $8 ToSlink from another seller at the same time. Now the $100 cable did have nice connectors at either end, but beyond that, there will not, strike that, CANNOT have any better (or worse) SQ between the 2. It just is not possible with the single exception of there being a difference because one WANTS to hear a 'difference'.

All said and done, I have heard 10,000 dollar amps that sound NOT as good as the 4310, and the best improvement one can make once at the 4310 level and above, would be speakers. Spend the money on speakers before the amp in my opinion. The old addage is true, spend 3x on speakers what you would on an amp. Get some MartinLogan CLX ART if you REALLY want the best sound in my opinion. It just doesn't get any better than that! That would be the smart choice to put your money into in my opinion, if you are determined to spend a premium (and are made right here in the good ol' US of A!).

Unfortunately, the ROI without XT32 and 2 SW's isn't there.

Performance gains from the 4310 with a single SW will only be marginally better.

Now, if Denon would give us 4310 owners an upgrade path to XT32... that would be great. I don't know how we would handle the physical connection for the 2nd SW, though.

I so love hearing folks claim things like an uber-cost ToSlink cable making their system sound so much more open and clear and transparent and yadda-yadda. These are the same people that also pay hundreds (thousands?) of dollars for power cords, too I am right there with you on the snake oil bandwagon!

Dual SW's are not implemented so much for sound volume, as they are for sound improvement. It's not about improving quality - it's about improving the low frequency performance. I'm satisfied with my sound, but I know I could improve it with another SW in my room.

I don't disagree that the Denon sound is very nice. I owned 2 prior AVR/Receivers before my 4310. It is hard to compete with Denon at or above its price point, from a SQ perspective.

Can it be improved upon? Sure. will that be more costly? Sure. That's no disrespect to the audio performance of the 4310.

As for speakers.. well, that is a huge can of worms. I think your 3X estimate is pretty darn close. I'm currently looking at Focal Chorus 826W, along with Usher Be-20/10. I really want something close to the form factor of my SM450's, since I want to do identical 5/7 channel configuration. Still a lot of auditioning to do... but, that is fun!!!

Example: My old Denon 2807 locked in on only 2 FM stations in the Pittsburgh area. Both were the "oldies genre" and this was using the dipole antenna on the outside of the house (via coaxial cable to the AVR).

Really wanting HD Radio was one of the major reasons for the upgrade to the 4310ci. After making the same antenna connection, Pow! it locked in on over 15 new radio stations that were HD, and many more just "plain old FM." To maximize the quality of this digital signal and prevent drop-off, I installed a Wingard Omni directional FM antenna. Now I have jazz, rock, AC, classical, and of course, oldies.

This HD Radio locks in slowly, but when it does you can actually hear that the signal is located. The sound quality gets that much better. HD Radio says, "as good as a CD." All stations are not equal, but the NPR Jazz HD 1 & 2 here in Pittsburgh are astonishing in quality. Played as background music, adding Dynamic Equalization, Easter company raised eyebrows when told that this was just the radio!

What is the best way to watch Directv and listen to music from a Home Theater PC.

Connections:

Directv = HDMI
HTPC = HDMI

Do I need more cables, settings, etc?

you cannot "mix" two HDMI sources so, yes, you need more cables.

the two easiest options:

1) if you can also make an analog audio connection from the HTPC, plug it into the same "name" input as the DirecTV (e.g. if you are using SAT/CBL for the DirecTV plug the audio into the SAT/CBL rca inputs). Then switch INPUT MODE to ANALOG and you have analog audio stream (from HTPC) mixed with the HDMI video from DirecTV.

2) you can run DirecTV straight to the TV with HDMI and run a digital audio cable to the 4310 for audio. Then, you can mix any audio source you want with the cable TV channels, since you have dissociated the DirecTV video from the AVR.

I only base my decisions on my experiences which so far have Denon striking out and Logitec hitting a home run with their customer support. As for upgrading, I find that improving sound quality is my motivating factor, not bells and whistles. Since I have been using the 4310 as just a pre/pro for some time now, my upgrade will likely be to a separate pre/pro, perhaps even one from Denon's sister company Marantz like the AV7005 or the rumored AV8005 or the Anthem AVM 50v or the Statement D2v. All of these (except the AV8005 which is only a rumor) produce a superior sound quality based on my listening experience and musical preferences of course.

The D2v done correctly with quality speakers is just AMAZING.. blow you away amazing!!!

The AV7005 is quite nice too for many $$$$ less.

And, they should sound better than our 4310's - which they do. Quite a testament to the 4310, I think. The AQ of the the 4310 is very good

I assume that your Pandora streams from possibly a BD player like Sony. So once it gets to the 4310ci, what about the quality of that stream compared to other inputs? This is an option that I am giving considering, but I already have Music Choice, and HD Radio. Is it worth the bother?

Personally, I see no bother. But absolutely it is worth it (Pandora is FREE) and the quality, while not reference quality at LOUD volumes, is more than acceptable at NORMAL listening volumes. At least in my opinion.

Well, I replaced the nic card last night, piece of cake. Not sure why folks were trying to scare me off. And I downloaded DenOnOff for my iPad 2 and I'm in heaven!!! Best $3.99 I ever spent. Finally makes using my media server thru the Denon from my patio state of the art. The Denon web browser app is decent, but the DenOnOff app takes it to another level.

Hello everyone,

I bought a AVR4310CI last January from BB to replace my Onkyo TX-SR805, and I am regretting my decision. For the last couple of weeks, the unit stopped connecting to the network . I called Denon today, and the guy tried a factory reset, but that didn't help. Fortunately, Denon have a repair service facility about 20 miles from where I live, so I will be taking it to them to replacing the NIC. Hopefully it won't take too long.

In addition, there are some other problems that I am having that the Denon guy didn't seem interested in discussing. My Denon is connected to the Fios DVR by HDMI, and TV is connected to Denon via HDMI. Intermittently, I seem to have what I believe to be HDMI handshaking problem. I won't see any picture on the TV unless I fiddle around with AVR and DVR (changing channel from SD to HD), and evenually it would work. The Denon guy just said that it is not a Denon problem. Is that correct?

The other problem is that the volume seems to be extremely low. When I am watching TV, I have the Denon volume bar to about 60-70% just to hear at a reasonable volume. I never had this problem with Onkyo before. The DVR volume is set at the highest level. Is there anything I can do about this?

Thanks in advance for your comments and suggestions.

^^
Yes, HDMI handshaking issues with a cable/sat box are quite common and yes, it's the fault of the Fios box as it was never designed to be plugged in to an AVR, rather directly to the TV. Your best option is to either connect the Fios HDMI directly to the TV with optical to the Denon or connect component video/optical from the Fios to the Denon.

As far as the volume, yes that's normal as well. Although you can enhance the dialog through the center channel by changing the Dyn EQ Reference Level Output setting to 10 or 15, presuming of course you've run AUTO SETUP already.

^^ Adding to that... I have had FIOS for several years and it took several attempts to get a DVR that would not have a handshake problem. The 7216's are the worst offenders, although it has been reported that they are 'better" with a recent upgrade. The 6416's are much less prone to the problem. However, you really want a 7232. They are virtually immune to the problem. (they are also the DVR that you want to have when the new IMG is released) All this is assuming that you have reasonable quality cables and that your cable lengths are also reasonable. If you have certain models of Samsung or a Sony displays, all bets are off - as they are also quite quirky with anything other than a direct source HDMI connection. Check the display forums - you find the ones very easily.

It may take you a few iterations to find a good one. There appears to be no rhyme or reason why one DVR (of the same type) works and another does not.

As for volume, read Batpig's Denon guide (sorry, in a hurry - no time to find/post link... search is your friend, though). The volume scale is based on difference from reference level,which may be different from your previous AVR. Assuming you have performed Audyssey setup/calibration - all is well.

Sorry about your NIC issue. That one is on Denon and it is why I will never buy another Denon product again

Don't you think that's a little inflammatory and extreme? It's one thing if it's rhetoric but are you really committed?

+1 on "I'm spitting on your grave" if my known to be defective NIC goes out."

Anyone from Denon read this forum?

I am quite inflamed about the quality of the 4310, as it is quite representative of the overall decline in quality at Denon, even up to the flagship products (read the threads, the AVP-A1 is not immune, either).

Having been long time (3 product generations, spanning almost 10 years) Denon customer, I can tell you that I am disappointed in the direction that Denon has been taking for the last 3+/- years (2 generations): cheaper manufacturing standards, build change to China for some lines, design failure... just overall quality.

And their service support, resolution and delivery would make manufacturers like Oppo, just cringe.

YMMV, however, it is not rhetoric. And, yes - I am quite committed that my next AV configuration will NOT be from Denon.

All that said, my 4310 has performed flawlessly since the first time that I took it out of the box. The sound is wonderful.. and that is really where the rubber meets the road. The features and functionality are fine for my needs. It's a great AVR.

Now can you understand my angst?

I am very disappointed that, based on my perceived loss of quality and "cost effective" (cheap) design and manufacture, I am not willing to risk my next generation of AV experience on another Denon product. For me, it is time to move on.

I don't think anyone is home. Sad.

I am looking at buying the 4310CI -- buy Wow maybe not now after your post.

What Mfg./Model would you buy instead?

Thanks to SteveC325 and jdsmoothie for your suggestions. I appreciate your help. As a matter of fact, I have fios DVR 4332, and still have problem with HDMI handshake. That’s why I was thinking it is a problem with the Denon, but I may be wrong. I am using short HDMI cables that I got for a couple of bucks on the internet (similar places such as monoprice). I have a couple of extra cables lying around, and I will try those out to make sure that it is not a cable problem once I have the unit back from repair. Incidentally, I found the Batpig’s guide, which should be very helpful.