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Oppo BDP-83 Vs. Denon DVD-A1UDCI - Page 2

post #31 of 340
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Has anyone shown that it is audible ?

Art

That's what I am asking...

"6" of one, to "half a dozen" of another...
post #32 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

For a multitrack movie mix, I cannot imagine any significant difference. The sounds in a movie soundtrack are artificial and mixed down to blend in and not overpower dialog. Jitter is a non-issue.

For me, my room is 100% HT. Jitter is about 100 on my list of 100 things I'd like to improve in my system.

Yeah, that's true of the "sounds" - but movie sountracks are also filled with music (some movies more than others), which often times carries the movie for intervals or extended periods with no dialog/sound effects. Some movies are very music-oriented; and then there's also concert/opera discs (which I would consider HT)...

QueueC is still looking for "objective/scientific" info/data/proof, and I'd like to find out also. If it turns out that jitter in Blu-ray is audible, you may want to bump it up from #100 on your list....
post #33 of 340
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Got it ,thanks !

Who here has the 83 ?

art

I have one and another on the way.
post #34 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

QC, I'll throw in my $.02 since we just finished an evaluation with my Elite 09FD and my Oppo. First the Oppo is blazing fast, faster than anything we've seen including the PS3.
We are now using the players analogue out straight into the Six Shooter since the Elite in analogue trounced the Elite out HDMI into the Integra DTC-9.8. There was no comparison as I reported earlier. Here's what we saw and heard with three of us in attendance for the test, myself, the owner of Musical Fidelity here in So Cal (Top rated high end audio repair in LA) who also used to be in video production, and a fellow Audiophile who was interested in purchasing an Oppo.
First on BD Video at 1080p/24 the pictures were very close. The Elite may have been slightly more refined with a slightly better black level, but again very close. There was nothing here to justify the price difference. On SD DVD the difference was more pronounced. The Oppo had more noise, some edge enhancement and not quite as accurate colors. We all noticed these differences, but it bothered my friend with a history of video production the most.
As for analogue Audio the Elite clearly bested the Oppo in every parameter. It had more air, depth of image, better tonal and tighter bass, and a much sweeter mid-range and top end. Here is where the price of admission showed the most, it was not subtle.
Finally, because I was encouraging my audiophile friend to go BD and I think the Oppo is unchallenged in its price range we took it over to his house to see how it faired as a CD transport. We compared it to his Theta Carmen over SP/DIF. Now I expected the two to be fairly close on digital audio, particularly since we were running the digital into a Theta CB III which re-clocks the signal with its "Jitter Jail." I had pretty much convinced my friend that he could go BD with the Oppo and use it as a CD transport and sell the Carmen and probably make a few bucks on the deal. This was a great concept, except the Oppo didn't hold up its end of the bargain. The Carmen was much sweeter, with way more air and dimension. My friend said he just couldn't pull the trigger given the difference. He would not live without the Carmen in this comparison, and I had to agree. So much for Bits is Bits. The difference as digital music transports was easy for all to hear.
This brings me to an observation I've been getting more comfortable with, and that is a top BD player with great analogue outs may just best an HDMI audio out to a processor. In my experience none of the HDMI processors I've heard has been able to best the Elite with its analogue outs in SQ. I'm not sure if we just need better HDMI pre/pros or if HDMI is an inherently inferior audio transfer protocol. I'm beginning to lean toward the latter. Some of the new HDMI pre/pros may help settle this question. However, a close friend was discussing this with the former owner and head designer of Kinergitics and Chiro, and he said the jitter on HDMI is so bad that it will not under its current incarnation do a decent job of transferring audio data.
Hopefully this helps in your quest for a BD player. Assuming the Denon is as good as the Elite for Audio and you can use it for DSD & DVD-A I would say go for it, especially since it is copacetic with your other Denon gear. Good decision making. Regards, Norm

I will trust Tyree91 opinion as unlike everyone else here he actually did a listening test. If you want to judge sound quality by a spec sheet go ahead but I like hearing real world examples. Thanks for the write up.
post #35 of 340
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcelyea View Post

I will trust Tyree91 opinion as unlike everyone else here he actually did a listening test. If you want to judge sound quality by a spec sheet go ahead but I like hearing real world examples. Thanks for the write up.

You seemed to have missed the point of my thread, as did Tyree91, which was to get objective data on jitter to judge whether one of the players is worth the extreme cost difference. I could care less about Tyree's opinion; I didn't ask for a half-assed unreliable subjective test comparing the Denon to a unit I'm not in the least bit interested in. That makes his post twice removed from the topic of the thread! The method he uses is about as unreliable as a comparison can get, making his opinion worthless to anyone with even a modicum of background on objective testing in this field; to all else it is merely looks useful when it really is baloney.

I was just going to ignore his post seeing as it was so far removed from my topic, but you inspired me...
post #36 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

You seemed to have missed the point of my thread, as did Tyree91, which was to get objective data on jitter to judge whether one of the players is worth the extreme cost difference. I could care less about Tyree's opinion; I didn't ask for a half-assed unreliable subjective test comparing the Denon to a unit I'm not in the least bit interested in. That makes his post twice removed from the topic of the thread! The method he uses is about as unreliable as a comparison can get, making his opinion worthless to anyone with even a modicum of background on objective testing in this field; to all else it is merely looks useful when it really is baloney.

I was just going to ignore his post seeing as it was so far removed from my topic, but you inspired me...

His post should of inspired you to actually listen to audio products (what a concept) But you keep judging by speed and other specs thats fine with me. I am glad he wrote his write up even if its not what you were looking for, other people do read these threads and may be interested.
post #37 of 340
QueueCumber,

You may want to bookmark hometheaterhifi.com if you haven't done so already. In late May they posted a preview of their currently unreleased review of the BDP-83. They measured frequency response already, but I'm not sure if jitter is a regular measurement for a review. Here's an example of some measurements they did on a Classe player last year. Maybe you could e-mail John E Johnson and ask him to conduct a jitter measurement? Here's their contact page with e-mails included.

Does Kal or anyone at Stereophile have one? They usually do jitter measurements on players too.

As an owner of a BDP-83, I'm interested as well to see what these publications have to say about it. I have a similar setup in that I am only bitstreaming- no use for the 7.1 outputs- but I saw the Oppo as a worthwhile purchase due to past experiences with the company and their record of stellar customer support. No regrets for this purchase.

Hope you can find some answers to your questions soon!

Regards,
Tyler
post #38 of 340
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcelyea View Post

His post should of inspired you to actually listen to audio products (what a concept) But you keep judging by speed and other specs thats fine with me. I am glad he wrote his write up even if its not what you were looking for, other people do read these threads and may be interested.

What makes you think I haven't listened to audio products previously and found listening comparisons completely lacking in fidelity?

That is one assumption on your part that is completely off base.
post #39 of 340
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrand1 View Post

QueueCumber,

You may want to bookmark hometheaterhifi.com if you haven't done so already. In late May they posted a preview of their currently unreleased review of the BDP-83. They measured frequency response already, but I'm not sure if jitter is a regular measurement for a review. Here's an example of some measurements they did on a Classe player last year. Maybe you could e-mail John E Johnson and ask him to conduct a jitter measurement? Here's their contact page with e-mails included.

Does Kal or anyone at Stereophile have one? They usually do jitter measurements on players too.

As an owner of a BDP-83, I'm interested as well to see what these publications have to say about it. I have a similar setup in that I am only bitstreaming- no use for the 7.1 outputs- but I saw the Oppo as a worthwhile purchase due to past experiences with the company and their record of stellar customer support. No regrets for this purchase.

Hope you can find some answers to your questions soon!

Regards,
Tyler

Thanks.
post #40 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrand1 View Post

QueueCumber,

You may want to bookmark hometheaterhifi.com if you haven't done so already. In late May they posted a preview of their currently unreleased review of the BDP-83. They measured frequency response already, but I'm not sure if jitter is a regular measurement for a review. Here's an example of some measurements they did on a Classe player last year. Maybe you could e-mail John E Johnson and ask him to conduct a jitter measurement? Here's their contact page with e-mails included.

Does Kal or anyone at Stereophile have one? They usually do jitter measurements on players too.

As an owner of a BDP-83, I'm interested as well to see what these publications have to say about it. I have a similar setup in that I am only bitstreaming- no use for the 7.1 outputs- but I saw the Oppo as a worthwhile purchase due to past experiences with the company and their record of stellar customer support. No regrets for this purchase.

Hope you can find some answers to your questions soon!

Regards,
Tyler

Robert Harley did a review on a Sony Blu Ray player and said for listening to cds on it it sounded much better over the digital out then the HDMI out. Could it be because of jitter being higher on HDMI and has anyone else experienced this. Here is his quote

This was my first opportunity to compare the sound of digital audio transmitted over HDMI with the same bitstream carried over a coaxial interface. I connected a digital coaxial cable from the BDP-S2000ES to the STR-DA5300ES, and simply switched between the inputs with familiar CDs as the source. (HDMI 1.3 will also carry two-channel PCM data.) High-end equipment designers who had experimented with HDMI reported to me that the interface introduces audible degradation. In fact, an engineer from Arcam told me that the company doesn't implement the audio aspects of HDMI because the sonic degradation is unacceptable. After listening for myself, I can see why. The HDMI connection sounded thinner, brighter, and harder, and had a strange, almost phasey character in the midrange. I noticed this only with two-channel material in direct comparison with the coax interface. When listening to Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio through HDMI, I didn't hear these sonic shortcomings.

He didnt do any measurements.
post #41 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

You seemed to have missed the point of my thread, as did Tyree91, which was to get objective data on jitter to judge whether one of the players is worth the extreme cost difference. I could care less about Tyree's opinion; I didn't ask for a half-assed unreliable subjective test comparing the Denon to a unit I'm not in the least bit interested in. That makes his post twice removed from the topic of the thread! The method he uses is about as unreliable as a comparison can get, making his opinion worthless to anyone with even a modicum of background on objective testing in this field; to all else it is merely looks useful when it really is baloney.

I was just going to ignore his post seeing as it was so far removed from my topic, but you inspired me...

I'm sorry you found my comments worthless. I was simply trying to give you the benefit of our experience between the Oppo and a top flight (cost) BD player. Remember these were not just my observations, but those of an audio professional (repair, design, and manufacturing of high end components,) and a dedicated audiophile/HT enthusiast. Both of them wanted to buy the Oppo, but these listening tests have made them re-think that. Of particular interest was the lack of musicality over SP/DIF vs. a Theta Carmen. This was so pronounced as to make the Oppo a replacement for the Carmen for SD DVD and CD impossible for him.
Another thing to remember is that I took an Integra DTC-9.8 out of our system, which was running Bitstream from BD & HD DVD prior to full evaluation of the Elite 09FD both Bitstreaming and analogue. The Analogue outs trounced the HDMI for film and concert video vs the Bitstreamed True HD & DTS-MA through the Integra. Thus there was no need any longer for HDMI audio processing. I think many in the audio design and reviewing arena are arriving at some of the reasons for this. HDMI just may not be ready for prime time when it comes to high-end audio playback. Until more testing, both objective and subjective, is done, and more high end SSPs hit the market I will live with my own observations which for now call for analogue audio solutions to digital audio for BD's new codecs.
I hope this helps some give thought to doing their own tests and observations in this area. Regards, Norm
post #42 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

The Analogue outs trounced the HDMI for film and concert video vs the Bitstreamed True HD & DTS-MA through the Integra. Thus there was no need any longer for HDMI audio processing. I think many in the audio design and reviewing arena are arriving at some of the reasons for this. HDMI just may not be ready for prime time when it comes to high-end audio playback.

Am I missing something here? It seems you are universally condemning HDMI SQ solely based on the Integra's performance....maybe the Integra just doesn't do HDMI (or HDMI-to-analog) well....
post #43 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcelyea View Post

Robert Harley did a review on a Sony Blu Ray player and said for listening to cds on it it sounded much better over the digital out then the HDMI out. Could it be because of jitter being higher on HDMI and has anyone else experienced this. Here is his quote.

I'm sorry, but RH is an idiot, and his analysis gives absolutely no valuable credibility to your argument (unless, the argument is grounded on an absence of meaningful facts and any form of science). Sorry QC, but it really annoys me when morons from certain magazines are quoted as "experts" in some form. I shall derail no further, especially since I was interested in the answer.
post #44 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by rider View Post

Am I missing something here? It seems you are universally condemning HDMI SQ solely based on the Integra's performance....maybe the Integra just doesn't do HDMI (or HDMI-to-analog) well....

I have heard many current SSPs and 1.3 HDMI Receivers, and I've found none of them stellar. HDMI maybe, or the ONE has not been built yet. Regards, Norm
post #45 of 340
Well, I know Keith Yates recently discussed an installation he did with a Halcro SSP.. And since his set ups are rarely under $500,000.. maybe there is something to it.
post #46 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I have one and another on the way.

OK, I've not been in this thread from the beginning ,obviously but I would like a faster player than my Pioneer. I see this unit isn't for sale on the Oppo site so where do I get one ?

Art
post #47 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

OK, I've not been in this thread from the beginning ,obviously but I would like a faster player than my Pioneer. I see this unit isn't for sale on the Oppo site so where do I get one ?

Art


If you go to the Oppo site and register they will email an invitation to purchase
a unit

http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-b...-Register.aspx

It can take hours up to a few days for them to respond.
post #48 of 340
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

OK, I've not been in this thread from the beginning ,obviously but I would like a faster player than my Pioneer. I see this unit isn't for sale on the Oppo site so where do I get one ?

Art

Yeah, I registered months ago...
post #49 of 340
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

I'm sorry you found my comments worthless. I was simply trying to give you the benefit of our experience between the Oppo and a top flight (cost) BD player. Remember these were not just my observations, but those of an audio professional (repair, design, and manufacturing of high end components,) and a dedicated audiophile/HT enthusiast. Both of them wanted to buy the Oppo, but these listening tests have made them re-think that. Of particular interest was the lack of musicality over SP/DIF vs. a Theta Carmen. This was so pronounced as to make the Oppo a replacement for the Carmen for SD DVD and CD impossible for him.
Another thing to remember is that I took an Integra DTC-9.8 out of our system, which was running Bitstream from BD & HD DVD prior to full evaluation of the Elite 09FD both Bitstreaming and analogue. The Analogue outs trounced the HDMI for film and concert video vs the Bitstreamed True HD & DTS-MA through the Integra. Thus there was no need any longer for HDMI audio processing. I think many in the audio design and reviewing arena are arriving at some of the reasons for this. HDMI just may not be ready for prime time when it comes to high-end audio playback. Until more testing, both objective and subjective, is done, and more high end SSPs hit the market I will live with my own observations which for now call for analogue audio solutions to digital audio for BD's new codecs.
I hope this helps some give thought to doing their own tests and observations in this area. Regards, Norm

You just don't listen do you, that or you are selfish to the extreme? Stop derailing my thread with your subjective, useless baloney... I want objective data. I have been explicit about what I am looking for. Start your own thread if you want to keep discussing this other topic please.
post #50 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

I'm sorry you


i.e. QC

Quote:


found my comments worthless.


I found your comments worthwhile. Thank you.

Quote:


I was simply trying to give you the benefit of our experience between the Oppo and a top flight (cost) BD player. Remember these were not just my observations, but those of an audio professional (repair, design, and manufacturing of high end components,) and a dedicated audiophile/HT enthusiast. Both of them wanted to buy the Oppo, but these listening tests have made them re-think that. Of particular interest was the lack of musicality over SP/DIF vs. a Theta Carmen. This was so pronounced as to make the Oppo a replacement for the Carmen for SD DVD and CD impossible for him.
Another thing to remember is that I took an Integra DTC-9.8 out of our system, which was running Bitstream from BD & HD DVD prior to full evaluation of the Elite 09FD both Bitstreaming and analogue. The Analogue outs trounced the HDMI for film and concert video vs the Bitstreamed True HD & DTS-MA through the Integra. Thus there was no need any longer for HDMI audio processing. I think many in the audio design and reviewing arena are arriving at some of the reasons for this.


Unfortunately many (most?) audio enthusiasts have come to believe that specs are the only valid/trustworthy thing for determining SQ (Sound Quality).

IMO digital processing for audio is a siren song, as are many specs for sound gear.

Anyhow, I still remember when CD came out 27 years ago and presto there was Julian in Stereo Review saying that the SQ was perfect and that the only difference in CD players was in how many features you got for the money spent.

It took a while before that was generally accepted as not being true.

Seems that the same thing is again repeating with Blu-ray players/discs.

The one thing that has happened in the last 27 years is that now sound and video are tied together, and as far as I can tell it is sound that suffers from this marriage.

Quote:


HDMI just may not be ready for prime time when it comes to high-end audio playback.


That's my own current belief, but that's mainly by my reading and not by my having much hands on experience with using HDMI for audio.

Quote:


Until more testing, both objective and subjective, is done, and more high end SSPs hit the market I will live with my own observations which for now call for analogue audio solutions to digital audio for BD's new codecs.
I hope this helps some give thought to doing their own tests and observations in this area. Regards, Norm


If by any chance you're the Norm of MKW kindly PM me. Thanks

Cheers
post #51 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I would love to hear what features you find to be indispensable on it once you get it.

One of the things that I don't see on the new Oppo, which I loved on my DVD-5910 (and which the new Denon DVD-A1 has) is the ability to switch from surround to stereo modes on DVD-A and SACD with a single remote button. It doesn't look like the Oppo can do that, and the Oppo doesn't do that on my DV-980H either. It doesn't justify the price difference, but it is a real pain in the butt to have to get up and look on my monitor in the equipment closet, or to bring down the screen and turn on the projector, just to switch from surround to stereo or vice versa.

The Oppo will allow you to switch modes via the audio button on the remote. This was added recently with a firmware update.
post #52 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

The Oppo will allow you to switch modes via the audio button on the remote. This was added recently with a firmware update.

Yes and it was immediately useful to me. Rented "....Benjamin Button" last weekend and could not find any explicit options to select audio format from the stupid menus. So, I just played it (DD 2.0) and used the remote to select the dtsHD 5.1 format on the fly.
post #53 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Unfortunately many (most?) audio enthusiasts have come to believe that specs are the only valid/trustworthy thing for determining SQ (Sound Quality).

problem with listening is that it is biased. if you think you will hear a difference, you certainly will end up hearing a difference.
post #54 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

The Elite may have been slightly more refined with a slightly better black level,

I'm confused about what "better black level" means.Do you mean in their most direct modes for a given pixel these two machines were reading the same 4:2:0 digital data of YCrCb color space at 8 bit resolution, but the bitstream outputs for that pixel did not match?
post #55 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

problem with listening is that it is biased. if you think you will hear a difference, you certainly will end up hearing a difference.

"And if you think you won't hear a difference, you certainly will end up not hearing a difference."
post #56 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

"And if you think you won't hear a difference, you certainly will end up not hearing a difference."

hence that is exactly why listening is a flawed measure of SQ.
post #57 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

hence that is exactly why listening is a flawed measure of SQ.

I sure hope your "day job" isn't scientist/engineer/etc....

How about the 3rd, obvious possibility: you conduct a listening test/comparison not having any pre-set preferences or expectations.....?
post #58 of 340
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rider View Post

I sure hope your "day job" isn't scientist/engineer/etc....

How about the 3rd, obvious possibility: you conduct a listening test/comparison not having any pre-set preferences or expectations.....?

Uh, in this instance that would be silly, since a number of scientific tests have already proven what he has stated...
post #59 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwinroad View Post

If you go to the Oppo site and register they will email an invitation to purchase
a unit

http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-b...-Register.aspx

It can take hours up to a few days for them to respond.

Thanks !

Art
post #60 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by rider View Post

I sure hope your "day job" isn't scientist/engineer/etc....

How about the 3rd, obvious possibility: you conduct a listening test/comparison not having any pre-set preferences or expectations.....?

That was a good one Well you are in luck as I am an accountant!

3rd possibility would work if it I were possible. Unfortunately it is not IMO since we all have prejudices and pre-set preferences whether we are aware or not.
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