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Oppo BDP-83 Vs. Denon DVD-A1UDCI - Page 3

post #61 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Unfortunately many (most?) audio enthusiasts have come to believe that specs are the only valid/trustworthy thing for determining SQ (Sound Quality).


Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

problem with listening is that it is biased. if you think you will hear a difference, you certainly will end up hearing a difference.


"bias" noun:
a. A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment.
b. An unfair act or policy stemming from prejudice.


FWIW, I listen without bias.

I listen to new audio gear for at least a couple of weeks before reaching conclusions.

And then I either place my money where my mouth is (based on my hearing judgment), or I ditch the stuff.

AFAICT, most people don't really listen. Listening is at best a secondary judgment for them. (Sight and touch/feel and maybe even smell/taste come before hearing.)

But then it is still an open question to me as to how much one's hearing ability (the so called "golden ears") might make a difference.

My bet is that "golden ears" is hogwash and that most people hear AOK (short of the ones who work near jet airplanes or in construction and therefore have damaged hearing) and that all it takes is the belief that your hearing is OK.

Cheers
post #62 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Uh, in this instance that would be silly, since a number of scientific tests have already proven what he has stated...

There's "a number of scientific tests" that have "proven" that, as he stated: "listening is a flawed measure of SQ"...?

So if that were true, it would leave 2 (current) possibilities:

1. There are specs and/or scientific tests that can measure and qualify all aspects of sound quality one looks for in order to evaluate which "sounds best" - in which case one would only have to read and compare such results/specs to determine the objectively "best sounding" equipment, without the need to listen to the actual equipment; or

2. There is no way (listening or scientific tests/specs) to properly evaluate or compare SQ of components.

...well I guess I'll continue to indulge in my sillyness of doing extensive listening to compare and choose. The bad news: I'm an engineer....The good news: I don't design satellites, aircraft, or any equipment that impacts public safety...
post #63 of 340
Get real Queuecumber! Even the 'objective data' is only part of the story and does not in any way guarentee sound quality. The proof of the pudding is in the eating or in most peoples cases, the listening. I thought tyree91 and his post was informative, relevent and rare as I've read very few comparative listening experiments. To suggest that someone who goes to the trouble of posting such impressions is 'selfish' and should basicially get lost is a little harsh.

Regards,

Paul
post #64 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterS View Post

Quick question on the comparison with the Oppo and the Pioneer. When outputting HDMI what was the format? Were you outputting and having the audio decompressed downstream?

Peter, Bitstream, decoded and DA converted in the Integra, but only with the Elite. The Oppo was not tested into the Integra, because the Integra was removed from the system before the arrival of the Oppo. The Oppo was tested Analogue out vs. the Elite and SP/Dif out vs. the Carmen. Analogue into a Six Shooter, and SP/DIF into a Casablanca III. Regards, Norm
post #65 of 340
The only thing proofed with the test over spdiff into the CIII is that this 'Jitter Jail' technology isn't working.

If the supposed difference is due to jitter there should be no difference.

Tested with native bit depth and sample rate or was the upsampling in one (or both) transport(s)?
post #66 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

FWIW, I listen without bias.

Well, as any of my first year Neuroscience students will tell you, you do not perceive anything without the unconscious bias of your previous experiences.

Quote:


AFAICT, most people don't really listen. Listening is at best a secondary judgment for them. (Sight and touch/feel and maybe even smell/taste come before hearing.)

But then it is still an open question to me as to how much one's hearing ability (the so called "golden ears") might make a difference.

My bet is that "golden ears" is hogwash and that most people hear AOK (short of the ones who work near jet airplanes or in construction and therefore have damaged hearing) and that all it takes is the belief that your hearing is OK.

Agreed. It is possible to listen carefully and to learn to attend to sound parameters that are, simply, ignored by most people. That does not mean one can listen without bias and, unless there are restraints and controls on what is presented, can reach conclusions without bias.
post #67 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

FWIW, I listen without bias.

Well, as any of my first year Neuroscience students will tell you, you do not perceive anything without the unconscious bias imposed by your previous experiences and many other factors.

Quote:


AFAICT, most people don't really listen. Listening is at best a secondary judgment for them. (Sight and touch/feel and maybe even smell/taste come before hearing.)

But then it is still an open question to me as to how much one's hearing ability (the so called "golden ears") might make a difference.

My bet is that "golden ears" is hogwash and that most people hear AOK (short of the ones who work near jet airplanes or in construction and therefore have damaged hearing) and that all it takes is the belief that your hearing is OK.

Agreed. It is possible to listen carefully and to learn to attend to sound parameters that are, simply, ignored by most people. That does not mean one can listen without bias and, unless there are restraints and controls on what is presented, can reach conclusions without bias.
post #68 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I'll be honest. I didn't read your post, because it is obvious that anything that long as a response to my post would be an intentional misinterpretation of my post in order to be childishly argumentative.

There are a great number of tests that show that human perception and listening is biased. Now go be belligerant elsewhere please. I'm not going to read your posts and the next step is me adding you to my ignore list.


Intentional misrepresentation
childishly argumentative
belligerant

Three times and you're out. Wonder why you get away with posting such
"belligerant, childishly argumentative" stuff which "intentionally misrepresents" what the quoted poster has said?

post #69 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

You and he are both selfish. I was very clear that I want objective, not subjective data. Why must you jerks continue to derail my thread? I asked politely a few times. Go start your own thread on that topic...

selfish
jerks

You are being a "jerk" and "selfishly" are on a roll!
post #70 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post

The only thing proofed with the test over spdiff into the CIII is that this 'Jitter Jail' technology isn't working.

If the supposed difference is due to jitter there should be no difference.

Tested with native bit depth and sample rate or was the upsampling in one (or both) transport(s)?


Science requires both objective thought and knowledge and subjective
experimentation.

I've had the Casablanca since the beginning, since 1997. I've heard how has the Casablanca has been upgraded how sonics have changed in my system.

I remember well the CB1 to 2 upgrade, with the 2 adding jitter jail. At the time, the 2 upgrade was subjectively a clear sonic improvement. I did not blind test as I no longer had the CB1. HA!

Though even with the CB2 and now the CB3, I have demod some different CD and DVD playes and despite the Casablanca's jitter jail, I have often heard differences in sonics. My Theta Voyager on DVD sounded better than a Pioneer RP-82 or RP56. My Theta Voyager on CD as a transport sounded appreciably better than - a Theta Carmen when that first came out.
(Voyager is long gone, replaced in 2005 by Theta Compli). Yet a Sony
SCD-777ES sounded the same as a Granite Audio tube CD player when both used as a digital transport. Go figure? I just know my system and what it sounds like! You don't.
post #71 of 340
with respect to the OP request for objective responses only, the Denon unit has just been released, and there are only a few here in the US so it would be difficult to get many responses

I am waiting anxiously for my DVD-A1 to compare it to the OPPO

[hope that was OK to post]
post #72 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by rider View Post

1. There are specs and/or scientific tests that can measure and qualify all aspects of sound quality one looks for in order to evaluate which "sounds best" - in which case one would only have to read and compare such results/specs to determine the objectively "best sounding" equipment, without the need to listen to the actual equipment; or

I really don't see your point. Nobody is saying that music quality can be reduced to numbers. We are also not saying that you should buy your equipment solely on specs and without listening to it.

Our point is when someone "listens" and compares Mark Levinson to Onkyo, they will be biased to think ML will sound better. Thus, conducting this comparative "listening" without knowing which one is which will provide more accurate results.

I may be being closed-minded here, but I am really having a hard time to see what is to disagree with that statement. I will stop at that without further derailing this thread.
post #73 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

with respect to the OP request for objective responses only, the Denon unit has just been released, and there are only a few here in the US so it would be difficult to get many responses

I am waiting anxiously for my DVD-A1 to compare it to the OPPO

[hope that was OK to post]

hey q
looks like no one has the objective data you are seeking yet. i don't know if there is some search engine for white papers/peer reviewed engineering data like there is in medical science like medline/pubmed--maybe someone can weigh in on that. looks like you would have to look into publication databases in order to answer your question...
post #74 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

They're all the same and if you are bitstreaming, there is no jitter.

This is not true even though it sounds pretty unintuitive, pun intended .

It is true that transmission of the bitstream is "data" and as such, immune to jitter on HDMI channel. However, that bitstream eventually gets decoded and has to be output as PCM. To do that, one needs a clock as to make sure the samples go out in sync with video as intended on the BD disc authoring. That clock is extracted from HDMI as that is the video clock. And therefore, all the same issues with jitter are present as if you received PCM over HDMI!

Now, the device acts differently in PCM vs bitstream mode. That is, its execution profile, power consumption, and noise can differ. Whether one is better or not is impossible to tell given the numerous variables.

Quote:
Now if you're using analog for audio, I'd stay away from a Blu Ray player altogether as there are far better dedicated CD players.

Good general point. In general, having only audio come out of the source is best strategy to be free of any concern in regards to impact of video, HDMI, etc.
post #75 of 340
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

with respect to the OP request for objective responses only, the Denon unit has just been released, and there are only a few here in the US so it would be difficult to get many responses

I am waiting anxiously for my DVD-A1 to compare it to the OPPO

[hope that was OK to post]

Yeah, no problems there.

I'm just trying to figure out if the Oppo passes below the audibility threshold for jitter when passing a signal over only around 6'. I guess there is no difinitive objective answer available...
post #76 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Intentional misrepresentation
childishly argumentative
belligerant

Three times and you're out. Wonder why you get away with posting such
"belligerant, childishly argumentative" stuff which "intentionally misrepresents" what the quoted poster has said?


Yeah....unfortunate waste of AVS bandwidth, isn't it...?
Well, time to add some "vegetables" to my ignore list....
post #77 of 340
well while you guys bicker over who should be on one list or another:

in the Stereophile July 2009 issue Kal reviewed the OPPO BD player: you can read it for yourself

He made brief mention [page 52] to its 2 channel SACD performance verses the dedicated Sony SCD-XA5400ES, saying it could not compete with the dedicated ES player

My Denon arrives on 30 June: I think this is a great thread and would hope it stays open as more folks provide the requested objective reports
post #78 of 340
Thread Starter 
You all can do whatever you like to the thread, I give up trying to get my questions answered.
post #79 of 340
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

He made brief mention [page 52] to its 2 channel SACD performance verses the dedicated Sony SCD-XA5400ES, saying it could not compete with the dedicated ES player

Analog-wise? I should just go check, I just received it yesterday but haven't had a chance to look through it.
post #80 of 340
Thread Starter 
Just read the article.

Kal, any idea why the DSD output via HDMI between the two players would sound slightly different?
post #81 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

This is not true even though it sounds pretty unintuitive, pun intended .

It is true that transmission of the bitstream is "data" and as such, immune to jitter on HDMI channel. However, that bitstream eventually gets decoded and has to be output as PCM. To do that, one needs a clock as to make sure the samples go out in sync with video as intended on the BD disc authoring. That clock is extracted from HDMI as that is the video clock. And therefore, all the same issues with jitter are present as if you received PCM over HDMI!

But that seems to validate at least what I understand thebland to be saying by "They're all the same and if you are bitstreaming, there is no jitter" - i.e., all players are sending the same data bitstream and hence the player cannot introduce jitter. The jitter introduced internally by the processor when deriving the clock from HDMI means that jitter can ultimately be introduced, but that wouldn't be a function of the player's data transmission to the processor, unless I'm not understanding this correctly.
post #82 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

You all can do whatever you like to the thread, I give up trying to get my questions answered.

it's too soon. obviously noone has the equipment yet.
post #83 of 340
Thread Starter 
Does anyone know if the Denon DVD-3800BDCI jitter reduction Master clock setup is similar to the DVD-A1 version?
post #84 of 340
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

it's too soon. obviously noone has the equipment yet.

Yeah. I did hope there would be some info available concerning the audibility of jitter levels in general.
post #85 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by rider View Post

But that seems to validate at least what I understand thebland to be saying by "They're all the same and if you are bitstreaming, there is no jitter"

If it does, then I did a poor job of explaining it .

Quote:
- i.e., all players are sending the same data bitstream and hence the player cannot introduce jitter.

No, in both cases, the jitter from the player shows up in the output. That is because in both cases the clock is extracted from HDMI and any jitter on that link shows up on the output.
Quote:
The jitter introduced internally by the processor when deriving the clock from HDMI means that jitter can ultimately be introduced, but that wouldn't be a function of the player's data transmission to the processor, unless I'm not understanding this correctly.

The jitter introduced by the processor is on top of source jitter.
post #86 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

This is not true even though it sounds pretty unintuitive, pun intended .

It is true that transmission of the bitstream is "data" and as such, immune to jitter on HDMI channel. However, that bitstream eventually gets decoded and has to be output as PCM. To do that, one needs a clock as to make sure the samples go out in sync with video as intended on the BD disc authoring. That clock is extracted from HDMI as that is the video clock. And therefore, all the same issues with jitter are present as if you received PCM over HDMI!

Now, the device acts differently in PCM vs bitstream mode. That is, its execution profile, power consumption, and noise can differ. Whether one is better or not is impossible to tell given the numerous variables.


So is it safe to say then if the player is bit-streaming it really comes down to how well the processor/receiver is at reducing/eliminating jitter?

Just curious, have you ever heard the effects of jitter? As I understand it you are trained to hear such effects and I am curious to know if trained ears can here it.

It has been talked about SOO much in so many different threads about so many products i am curious to know if its actually audible, or if we are at a point in this hobby where there is simply nothing else to discuss we end up picking on something as minor as jitter.

There is no sass in this post, i am genuinely curious.
post #87 of 340
You know Queuecumber, if I were you I'd ask the moderators for your money back. That AVS course on forum charm and ettiquette went right over your head. I would think very carefully my friend before you choose to insult people on a public forum. Enjoy the rest of YOUR thread.

Paul H
post #88 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by vancouver View Post

So is it safe to say then if the player is bit-streaming it really comes down to how well the processor/receiver is at reducing/eliminating jitter?

Yes, assuming you can't change or control the source.

Quote:


Just curious, have you ever heard the effects of jitter? As I understand it you are trained to hear such effects and I am curious to know if trained ears can here it.

Yes, I can hear it in blind tests I have done on myself. The difference is small and does require knowing what material to use to hear it clearly.

Quote:


It has been talked about SOO much in so many different threads about so many products i am curious to know if its actually audible, or if we are at a point in this hobby where there is simply nothing else to discuss we end up picking on something as minor as jitter.

There is no sass in this post, i am genuinely curious.

You are right that jitter has no place in average conversations about fidelity. However, in this forum at the top end of the foodchain, I think there is merit in discussing it.

People should at least learn what makes up jitter (it is not just a number). Why or how it could be audible. How one would go about testing for it.

OP asked for objective data on whether such things are audible. Sad thing is that even if there were, it would be of no value ot him. I can assure him that there is not a test in the world that would indicate whether he can hear jitter in his room with his ears. That combination has never or will ever be tested
post #89 of 340
I should also add that I don't consider jitter a factor in movie viewing no matter how high-end the system...
post #90 of 340
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hayward View Post

You know Queuecumber, if I were you I'd ask the moderators for your money back. That AVS course on forum charm and ettiquette went right over your head. I would think very carefully my friend before you choose to insult people on a public forum. Enjoy the rest of YOUR thread.

Paul H

Another one for the ignore list. Good riddance. I hope you feel better after crying yourself to sleep tonight!
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