Is It Safe To Buy Dual MFWs? - Page 3

If you have to ask, you already know the answer. So far none of their subs has been a safe purchase. Do you have enough extra money that you would feel safe walking into a shady gambling establishment, plopping down a grand on the ruelette wheel with the hope of winning two killer subs but full knowledge that you could also lose it all?

My advice is to not give AV123 any money you can't afford to lose.

As for the advice of just call them and speak to MLS. Are you kidding? Very little of what he says or posts turns out to be true. He can't even keep a promise to send an email. He is also very good at manipulating people. Whether you call him a salesman or a con man, he has a charisma and persona that sucks people in. As evidence, look at how there are still a bunch of lemmings cheering him on and telling you to trust him despite overwhelming evidence that he can't be trusted. If you don't have a healthy dose of skepticism and a good BS detector, do not call him up, you are just asking to get taken.

m-fine416,

Are you addressing me or the OP?

Floridapoolboy,

Please accept my apology for piggyback on your thread but I am also looking for dual sub setup.
Hope you won't mind my less than gentlemanly behavior.

This is straight from craigsub scoring. He scored the MFW-15 higher than the 3.3 (with turbo) for both music and movies. My comment concerning the ULS-15 is that you would have to step up into that sub from HSU to best the MFW-15. Now if you are telling me that craigsub scoring is just plain off, then that is your opinion, but he has had a good track record around this forum and others and I definitely would put more stock in his scoring of a sub than just about anyone else.

And I am not advocating that anyone buy the MFW-15. Actually, I have recommended the opposite (stay away). But there is no denying that a working MFW-15 at $499+shipping cannot be touched by HSU, SVS, or eD right now based on price to performance.

"lemmings" might be a little harsh. However, I have wondered if some of these MLS "supporters" might have a selfish interest in seeing him succeed. Is it possible that if enough people don't ignore the problems at AV123 that the company will not survive as viable business entity? What happens to someones investment in AV123 equipment if they can't convince others to continue to purchase from MLS & Company despite their recent history? Seems as though repairs and re-sale value might suffer. Just speculating......

av123 themselves have killed resale value IMHO based on the deals they have been offering as of late on new and "B" stock gear.

You can't put your faith into just one set of scoring. Different conditions, different people, and different preferences.

I have also heard an MFW-15, and owned a 3.3....not in the same room, and I felt the 3.3 sounded better, certainly not a night and day difference. If someone told me they did a side by side comparison, and thought the 3.3 was a better sub, my experience certainly wouldn't cast a doubt on what that person thought.

There are very few people that have compared an MFW-15 to another competing sub.

If I were to gamble on my money on a sub, then it is a no brainer.

No way in hell is the 3.3 gonna match the MFW in output.

sounds better is all in the ear of the beholder so to speak.

20 to 63hz avg is not even close.

Probably true about output, but there is no test in output for the MFW-15.

True, sound is in the ear of the beholder.....but to make that judgement, you have to hear both, and not many people have.

Where else can you buy the A-stock of a Mark Seaton-designed sub, widely respected, highly regarded for $499?

And my question for the skeptics is, if MLS wanted to really shaft everyone of money, why doesn't he just take all the money and run? Why does he insist on re-outfitting existing subs with new amps, re-outfitting all subs with new amps, and continuing to make good on speaker deliveries?

The fact of the matter is that MLS got scheisted by some sleazy overseas subwoofer manufacturer. We can't really blame him for that.

The Rocket speakers I have are fantastic. The reviews I've read for the MFW-15, when it works, are fantastic. I've seen pictures of the new amp boards....they look good.

AV123 is way in over its head. If it doesn't deliver, it's entire reputation will be toast over the subwoofer. Based on that, I believe they will deliver.

I don't plan on ever selling my AV123 products to anyone, and I own:

a pair of Strata Mini's
a pair of LS-6's
a pair of MFW's
a pair of MTM's
5 pair of X-CS's

I couldn't be happier with the quality I have received on their products. Just incredible value. And Kyle and all of their CS reps have never been anything but professional and incredibly helpful.

That being said, I am still waiting on my $1100 worth of refund from Mark, which I've been awaiting since SEPTEMBER of last year. For that reason, I would recommend that any and all dealings w/ AV123 be for in-stock items, and through AV123 ONLY.

I'm not going to pretend -- Mark and I have had numerous correspondences and phone conversations, and I think he means well, but I think that he has had some serious PERSONAL cashflow problems that make me entirely unwilling to recommend anything from his PERSONAL brand (The Graham Company).

My sincere hope is that he turns things around personally, both with his finances as well as his health.

You can't.


He is presently holding monies from a fair amount of people and for considerable amounts of time while not delivering product. He's holding monies from people who have defective products and are waiting for replacements. The MFW isn't the only sub that they sell that has amp issues. Those folks have products that are under warranty and there's not been a peep from the company commander and his subordinates on that. If he does run, and that means AV123 folds, then he'll be subject to criminal prosecution.
As to why he's providing replacement amps, well that's part of the warranty everyone has, no? So long as he's not Chapter 11 or worse he's obligated to adhere to the terms of the sale. As to making good on speaker deliveries, he might do well to make good on prior commitments too.


Yes we can. We can blame him for not properly vetting the company. We can blame him for not hiring the right people to do so if he's incapable of doing so. We can blame him for not having a QC program in place to ensure uniform quality across the board. He is guilty of incompetence. He enjoys taking your money so let the buck stop where it's supposed to and demand some accountability for God's sake.

When it works...

It's do or die for sure. However, he's got a lot of issues that need addressing besides the MFW and the public is going to keep the pressure on until he lives up to his and the company's promises. He might start by not taking so much money out and hiring the right people to oversee the management of the company.

I want to see a doctor's note that's been notarized. He's always sick.

Here we go again with this craigsub list...First off, his scoring is not the bible and he will tell you so. How much superior is a sub if its higher in points then another...do you really no sound wise? My guess is, you would not. My buddy has a MFW and have heard it in my room and his and I liked it...ALOT. It seemed there was a wait for an MFW, so I purchased the 3.3. Then I compared it to the MFW in my room and hauled my 3.3 over his place and compared it also. Superior...no way...Similar, sure. I did not do any high tech testing other then seeing how low they went and how loud they were when they went there lowest and that was it. My room, the 3.3 was lower and his room almost equal...still don't understand that but I am not in the science of subs.

REGARDLESS, your statement early is completely off "bass". I am not bashing MFW, but until there problem is resolved, I just wouldn't recomend buying that sub. When it does get resolved, I would more then happy to recomend the product. It is an excellent product with unfortunately currently inferior parts. If they would just put something in reliable and raise the price to compensate, people would still by...considering its still lower in price then many subs out there with regards to performance...and customer service...I will not go there.

Some like to revert to name calling. That's OK. Wouldn't be the first time I've heard derogatory remarks hurled my way.

But, as a person who does own more than a few speakers from AV123, and a current owner of an MFW, I couldn't be happier with my purchases, their performance, or their looks.

So. is it safe to buy duals (trying to stay on topic)? You want opinions. Plenty of them here. Some from owners who have legitimate beefs....some from people who've never ordered a single piece from AV123.

GM is headed for bankruptcy. I'm not going to run out and sell my 2 year old Tahoe because of that. It runs great and has never had any issues while in my possession. There's no doubt in my mind that I'll get 150K miles out of it with little in the way of issues....just like the previous one I owned. Other Tahoe owners don't feel the same.

Same deal with AV123. My gear has been sterling, sounds great, looks even better. At the off chance that they do close their doors, that doesn't change.

To me, if AV123 was going to shutter their doors, it would have happened before now. As it is, I think they've turned the corner. If you would have asked me their status 4-5 months ago, I would have given them a 50-50 shot. Today, they're delivering speakers, fixing sub amp problems, and moving in the right direction.

Before the year's out, I'll probably buy more speakers from them, and perhaps another MFW.

IF you're worried, buy MFWs with a credit card. My previous sub blew up. When I submitted my claim to my CC company, they had indeed extended the warranty on it and sent me a check to have it fixed. I took that check and bought the MFW.

I'll repeat, buy what you want, from whom you want. Call me names if you want. It really doesn't matter to me.

I've been a long time AV123 customer. And, I've been pleased with them....even when things went sideways.

It's your money. I can't see another sub, for the money, that can out perform the MFW, nor look anywhere nearly as good as MFWs do.

He has just as much right to post a positive comment as the people who post constant negative comments, as often as they all like.

What else needs to be said?
If MLS still cannot refund $1100.00 from September 2008, why would anyone commit any more money to him?
Invest your hard earned dollars elsewhere....this dog has fleas.

For some reasons, my response to Graphicguy didn't show so I'll have to start over again.

First off, thank you Graphicguy for your insightful post.
I'm here to learn more about the MFW prior to making my decision so anything related is really helpful.

At this point, I wish to ask you a few more questions please.

You said he used to sell Swan speakers (I didn't anything about this brand so I'll need to do some more readings) then whatever happened to him not selling them anymore?

Regarding Emotiva, I do know a little about them when I was searching for a HT amp.
I now have their pre/pro & amp in my system and they are great.
I always thought Emotiva was launched & is owned by Dan Laughman (sp)?

So MLS is both av123 president and a designer/manufacturer?
He must have had an engineering and marketing background in order to do so.
I myself can hardly hold one simple job at any one time, let alone doing several tasks at the samt time.
I must admite I always admire such talents.

Alright, I'll need to go reading up on av123 then come back here with more questions.

Thanks again Graphicguy.

You may want to contact craigsub. He owned dual MFW's now he owns dual LFM-1EX's. I know from some of his posts that I have read that he likes the LFM-1EX subs, but felt the MFW's offered more output. But the safe bet seems to be going with dual LFM's since you already own one. How big is your room? What are the room dynamics? Sometimes you can get the most bang for your buck by spending some money on room treatments. I take it you are from Florida? Having spent most of my life in Florida I can attest that many rooms have tile floors and vaulted ceilings which can really affect acoustics.

You like the HSU over the MFW. Nothing wrong with that. Other people feel differently. Who is right or wrong? There is no right or wrong answer, it is personal preference. And I have actually compared about 5 subs (including HSU, eD, SVS, BIC) that are on the craigsub ranking list and I have found his list to be pretty much inline with my own tastes. So I do put some stock in his ranking. But the best test would be for the OP to try both dual subs in his space and keep the winner. That would be the only true test. But, as I have stated several times in this thread and which you seem to ignore, I would not buy any av123 product at this time, and certainly not their subwoofer. Too many other reputable companies out there that make great products. .

graphicguy as usual left out important information.

His statement reads like AV123 has not had amp problems with its subs before.

Try telling that to the ULW owners with bad amps, and the disgrace with the UFW-12.

You conveniently left out the fact that MLS designed the UFW-12 mule with significant deep bass and then CHANGED the design of the amp/driver such that the UFW-12 left a lot of people disappointed. They had been clearly led to believe that the UFW-12 would have good deep bass. But the changes MLS made turned the UFFW-12 into something akin to the SVS SB-12 Plus, (as far as deep bass is concerned). To the best of my knowledge, buyers only found out that the design had been changed when they received the $1,100-$1,200 UFW-12.

AV123 has been working on delivering what it promised for close to 3 years now, and things are still up in the air. The fix is still not available after 2 years of promises.

Other amp fixes resulted in excess heat and had to be re re-designed!

There is more that affects OTHER AV123 subs. Perhaps one of the non-apologists can elaborate on the non MFW sub amp issues.

How about you post your non-helpful to the OP / pro AV123 cheerleading in another thread? The OP wants to know if it's safe to buy dual MFW-15's and you just post about how much your MFW-15's rock. Just like you always do. That's not a helpful post. We all know you're in love with your MFW-15's and you think they're the greatest thing ever. We all know they can break things, etc, etc, etc... Your anecdotes are unrelated and not beneficial except to sub salt in the wounds of the people who have ongoing problems.

The OP is clearly aware of their performance when working. He wants to know if the problems are past. Just because there are still some working MFW-15's, that amaze their owners with every movie watched, out in the field doesn't mean the new ones are a safe buy.

I have a B-stock MFW-15 from last year that still kicks all kinds of ass. I'll be adding another B-stock most likely before the end of the year. The performance for the money is unbeatable. Every interaction I've ever had with AV123 has been quick and courteous.

Glad to see the same group of guys are piling on in this thread. Waiting on Pure-Evil (Jinx) to join in on the gang bang. Only then will it be complete.

Well you there's something called the reverse gang bang which is when one person screws a whole bunch of others

You expected something else? The same cheerleaders (yourself included) join every thread and post non helpful and irrelevant anecdotes about how much your MFW-15(s) rock and/or about how your experience with AV123 was fine.

There can only be a few possible conclusions drawn from your and others posts.

1) The cheerleaders are just trolling.

2) The cheerleaders think that everyone who posts warnings about AV123 or certain AV123 products is lying.

3) The cheerleaders think that the concerns posted about AV123 or certain AV123 products are irrelevant and/or invalid.

Which of the three camps do you fall into?

You go off facts:

1) They have never produced a subwoofer without amp problems

2) MLS still owes people money and product

Other than that, it's a great deal

I thought the X-Sub was okay?

I fall into the camp that doesn't take a single word you post at face value. Here, and at the ********** forum you added absolutely nothing worth reading. Every single one of your posts is a snarky, cynical comment no matter if the subject is AV123 or anything else.

Shis....not a problem. You can find out more about Swan here...

http://www.swanspeaker.com/

They are now sold by this company...

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/

Sounds like you're already familiar with EMOTIVA. They make great products. While I don't have any experience with their speakers, I did have their LMC/LPA gear in my system for a good long while. They did have some teething problems with their LMC pre-pro, but they got them sorted out. Both products are retired, however.

Dan did indeed launch the EMOTIVA brand, along with Lonnie. Early on, EMOTIVA was marketed by AV123, before they went out on their own, including sales and marketing. It's been awhile, but I've had the pleasure of speaking with both Dan and Lonnie. Both great guys. Whenever possible, I always urge anyone to contact the principal's with any of these ID companies to get information instead of speculation....doesn't matter if it's EMOTIVA, or AV123, or any of the other ID companies.

Regarding MLS and AV123, sometimes MLS sends off design work to other respected sources, sometimes his design hand is more involved. Depends on the product. With the MFW, Mark Seaton actually designed it (http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=1942660). Mark also sells his own, higher end sub, the Seaton Submersive. You can read more about it in this thread.....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=759877

Older interview (about 5 years), but here's a video interview that should give you some feel for MLS's background....

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/video...k-schifter.mov

Not entirely up-to-date to where AV123 is today, as things have changed a bit (they also build speakers in Cali, Columbia) and some of their dealings in China has changed.

Hope that helps cut through some of the noise. As I said, I urge anyone to call the principals of any of these ID companies to get a better picture of what they're all about.

I'll take this post as you waving the white flag in this discussion. You can no longer stand on principal or the facts and have instead moved on to desperate and baseless insults.

You have just made my day.