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Setting levels for two subs - Page 7

post #181 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by m-fine416 View Post

I disagree with you on this, unless you have no phase/delay control. With phase/delay adjustments, you can get two subs that are 3m apart to couple at your seat. The key is that the waves are in phase at the seat, not where the came from or what path the traveled to get there.

Sure, you can get them to "constructively combine" at some arbitrary location by manipulating phase. However, if you want them to propagate as one wave from their origin, they need to be physically co-located.

Craig
post #182 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

(Actually, if you want to get any coupling at all right now, you'll need to get another sub. )

Well, that's the advantage of having a single sub. You don't have to worry about any of this.
post #183 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Maybe you should level-match, otk.

He actually could. Since the subs are for the most part co-located, level matching within the 2 sets should be close to gain matched, and if the two stacks are equal distance to the walls and the seats (symetrical setup in symetrical room) he could level match and end up gain matched between the two.
post #184 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Here is an example of a dual driver, gain-matched subwoofer system:

those are sexy
post #185 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

those are sexy

Maybe you should replace your aging stacks with a couple of those.
post #186 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Maybe you should level-match, otk.

didn't MS say that was bad because your head-room would be limited to the sub with the highest level setting

i'm going back to headphones
post #187 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Maybe you should replace your aging stacks with a couple of those.

eventually they will be replaced but they just keep working and still rock

i'm thinking somewhere down the road dual submersives will replace them
post #188 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

eventually they will be replaced but they just keep working and still rock

i'm thinking somewhere down the road dual submersives will replace them

Oh-oh, you might need a... "band-aid"!
post #189 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Oh-oh, you might need a... "band-aid"!



post #190 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Maybe you should level-match, otk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m-fine416 View Post

He actually could. Since the subs are for the most part co-located, level matching within the 2 sets should be close to gain matched, and if the two stacks are equal distance to the walls and the seats (symetrical setup in symetrical room) he could level match and end up gain matched between the two.

Could or should?


Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

didn't MS say that was bad because your head-room would be limited to the sub with the highest level setting?

And you have headroom issues?
post #191 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post




lol!!!
post #192 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post


Is that banana moonwalking?!?!?!?
post #193 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Is that banana moonwalking?!?!?!?

It is a Michael Jackson memorial moon walking banana emoticon.
post #194 of 249
I'll be receiving my Audyssey Sub Equalizer (the installer version of the SVS AS-EQ1) the first part of July. What's your guys' take on how it uses level-matching?

In my previous post, I mentioned that my subs are physically gain-matched at the amp, but one hits it's limits before the other one. When I measure them individually from my listening position, the one that hits it's limits first is 1dB higher than the other. Should I gain-match the subs by placing them in the center in of the room and measuring SPL before attempting to calibrate with the Sub Equalizer? Or will it not matter anyway since it will level-match them at the listening position during setup?
post #195 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

In my previous post, I mentioned that my subs are physically gain-matched at the amp, but one hits it's limits before the other one. When I measure them individually from my listening position, the one that hits it's limits first is 1dB higher than the other.

And someone asked, how do you know when a sub has "hit its limit"? And why would you push your subs repeatedly to that point, anyway?


Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Should I gain-match the subs by placing them in the center in of the room and measuring SPL before attempting to calibrate with the Sub Equalizer? Or will it not matter anyway since it will level-match them at the listening position during setup?

I don't know how it works, but if it level-matches the subs, then there is no reason to try and gain match them prior.
post #196 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

And someone asked, how do you know when a sub has "hit its limit"? And why would you push your subs repeatedly to that point, anyway?

No. I was asked how I know when MY subs hits their limits.

I already answered that question. Even Mark Seaton acknowledged that question and my answer to it. If you want to know my answer to that question go back a few pages. Feel free to lose the attitude at the same time.

Also, I do not repeatedly push my subs to their limits. I have never posted that I have. I did post that Audyssey MultEQ XT was wreaking havoc on my subs due to it heavily boosting the teen Hz area. Due to this, I have had my subs unexpectedly reach their limits when I watch new content with lots of bass.

I gave a real world example and asked some questions based on the original topic of this thread.

This thread needs to be shut down and deleted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

I don't know how it works, but if it level-matches the subs, then there is no reason to try and gain match them prior.

Thanks. I agree.
post #197 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by m-fine416 View Post

YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!! GIVE UP THE ARGUING AND GO LEARN SOMETHING AND THEN COME BACK!!!YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!! GIVE UP THE ARGUING AND GO LEARN SOMETHING AND THEN COME BACK!!!

Typing in capital letters will not lend credence to your points.

Regards,
post #198 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by m-fine416 View Post

Nice lie! It is physically impossible, but that does not fit your argument now does it?

Nope. I did not lie about the increases I obtained.

Regards,
post #199 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Nope. I did not lie about the increases I obtained.

Regards,

Please explain how that is physically possible. Convert db's to pascals so you can add the output of the two subs, then demonstrate how you can add smaller numbers to get a bigger result. Or perhaps you can explain why conservation of energy does not apply in your house.
post #200 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Typing in capital letters will not lend credence to your points.

Regards,

I am yelling at you. After all your posturing, arguing and insulting, I realized you are not just mistaken, but you indeed have virtually no understanding at all. You insult me and claim my engineering education was fabricated, but you do not understand db's and have no clue how to add two signals.

You gave an example of a sub at -10db and one at +5 adding to -5! It is time for you to shut up, stop arguing, and stop giving advice.

I posted enough here that if you care to learn, you should have a good start, but you need to drop the attitude, admit you need to learn, and open your mind.
post #201 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by m-fine416 View Post

Please explain how that is physically possible. Convert db's to pascals so you can add the output of the two subs, then demonstrate how you can add smaller numbers to get a bigger result. Or perhaps you can explain why conservation of energy does not apply in your house.

Phase cancellation could explain what he's describing, couldn't it?
post #202 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

No. I was asked how I know when MY subs hits their limits.

I already answered that question. Even Mark Seaton acknowledged that question and my answer to it. If you want to know my answer to that question go back a few pages. Feel free to lose the attitude at the same time.

Also, I do not repeatedly push my subs to their limits. I have never posted that I have. I did post that Audyssey MultEQ XT was wreaking havoc on my subs due to it heavily boosting the teen Hz area. Due to this, I have had my subs unexpectedly reach their limits when I watch new content with lots of bass.

I gave a real world example and asked some questions based on the original topic of this thread.

This thread needs to be shut down and deleted.

I still think it would be a good exercise to properly gain match the two and test if one is still reaching its' limits first. If it were me I'd just want to know out of curiosity. As far as shutting down the thread, go back and re-read milesdavis' response to you, to me what's written doesn't inherently have a bad attitude, only if you read it that way. It just sounds to me like he doesn't fully remember (or didn't read all of) what was said back then.
post #203 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by m-fine416 View Post

You gave an example of a sub at -10db and one at +5 adding to -5! It is time for you to shut up, stop arguing, and stop giving advice.

For the last time, I engineered that example to make a point. I understand what a decibel is and I understand the log scale full well. In all my years posting here, I've never once ever insisted that -10 dB's +5 dB's would leave 5 dB's or +5-10 = 5 or any other linear example using decibels. Not once because it doesn't work that way.

However that doesn't necessarily mean that others won't see it that way, hence the example to show that gain matching wouldn't do jack to alleviate the issues presented.

Actually, you have a lot to learn. Any insult I made against you I had just cause to make. It is still your subjective opinion that gain matching is superior to level matching. You can yell and throw emotional tantrums all you like, it would still be subjective.

Regards,
post #204 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

For the last time, I engineered that example to make a point. I understand what a decibel is and I understand the log scale full well. In all my years posting here, I've never once ever insisted that -10 dB's +5 dB's would leave 5 dB's or +5-10 = 5 or any other linear example using decibels. Not once because it doesn't work that way.

However that doesn't necessarily mean that others won't see it that way, hence the example to show that gain matching wouldn't do jack to alleviate the issues presented.

Actually, you have a lot to learn. Any insult I made against you I had just cause to make. It is still your subjective opinion that gain matching is superior to level matching. You can yell and throw emotional tantrums all you like, it would still be subjective.

Regards,

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

goneten,

Give it up, man. You have NO response for Post#154, do you? Save some face. We will still love you just the same.

I just can't wait until I can gain match 2 subs!

Regards,

...we're still waiting...
post #205 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Feel free to lose the attitude at the same time.

Sorry if I came across in some way that was unintended.


Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

This thread needs to be shut down and deleted.

Why? Maybe.
post #206 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

...we're still waiting...

Well, I did post a reply. But it might not be appreciated by some.

Regards,
post #207 of 249
i don't think the thread needs to be locked

if everyone could just tone down the anger and keep to the science

how do pro audio people do it where they are using stacks and stacks of subs with racks and racks of amps ?

do they level or gain match ?
post #208 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

how do pro audio people do it where they are using stacks and stacks of subs with racks and racks of amps ?

That's an excellent question.

Regards,
post #209 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Sorry if I came across in some way that was unintended.

My bad. Sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Why? Maybe.

Because I can't tell the difference between fact/fiction/theory in this thread. Again, my bad.
post #210 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

I still think it would be a good exercise to properly gain match the two and test if one is still reaching its' limits first. If it were me I'd just want to know out of curiosity. As far as shutting down the thread, go back and re-read milesdavis' response to you, to me what's written doesn't inherently have a bad attitude, only if you read it that way. It just sounds to me like he doesn't fully remember (or didn't read all of) what was said back then.

I agree, it would be good to properly gain match them. I just didn't want to have to go through the trouble if the Audyssey Sub Equalizer doesn't require/need it. It is my understanding that Audyssey Pro is going to ask me to adjust the gain on the back of my subs anyway to achieve 75db from each sub at the primary LP (level-matching). I believe that is what the AS-EQ1 software has the user do.
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