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Should I add a sub?

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
Should I add a sub? Well the real truth is that I've finished my job here in the Philippines but our travel people can't get me a flight home until Monday at least not without spending a couple more $$ than the cost of keeping me here so I'm screwed. So, bored, sitting here in the hotel I'm thinking, what ridiculous thing could I do for my HT next? Add a sub?

I have virtually unlimited attic space surrounding the theater. If I had utilized the available attic space to add additional rooms to the upper floor of the house I could have easily added more than 1000 sq ft. I chose instead to keep the theatre surround by attic to make after the fact cable routing easier and to eliminate the possibility of disturbing the neighbors. So, IB, enormous sealed or ported baffles are all possibilities.

My opinion is that SQ at low frequency is obtained best in the following order. OB, IB, Large sealed box, Large ported box. Small boxes and BP drop below the acceptable SQ threshold.

The target frequency band would be 18 Hz or perhaps 16 Hz and below with sufficient output to maintain 120 dB at least an octave lower with low distortion. If I had $30K laying around I would go with a couple of those fan things but I don't so I need a cheaper alternative. Given that this drops us below the frequency band of any music, SQ requirements are somewhat diminished so maybe I can consider the large ported option since it should be the most efficient means of doing this.

Anyway, while I'm sitting here doing nothing maybe I'll model some drivers to see what's possible. Maybe I could even utilize the attic space to make some kind of huge horn? I guess there are a number of ways of going about it. I'm not sure I will ever do any of them, it just depends on what intriguing ideas come up and of course on finding sufficient time at home to do it. I expect to have the surrounds finished and in place this coming week which will finally make the theatre fully operational. I still have all the cosmetic stuff to do however so if a sub project gets added to the list it may be awhile before it materializes.

mk
post #2 of 29
I may just be real tired, but what's OB? Open baffle? Kind of like a dipole sub? I've never heard one, but I have read that the quality is very good, but the output is a lot less desirable.
post #3 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

I may just be real tired, but what's OB? Open baffle? Kind of like a dipole sub? I've never heard one, but I have read that the quality is very good, but the output is a lot less desirable.

Yes, OB is open baffle. It's also a Korean Beer

The problem with open baffle is that the volume displacement requirement is a cube function as opposed to a squared function. So if you have a particular conventional boxed woofer capable of say 40 Hz without bottoming and you want to be able to get to 20 Hz then you need four times more displacement. Your going twice as low so you need 2^2 times more displacement. For a dipole to go twice as low the volume displacement increases by 2^3 thus you need eight times more displacement.

Also, I think this is a SQ plus but an open baffle woofer will not pressurize the room so it's difficult to get much output at all below the lowest room mode. I currently have a room resonance peak at 18 Hz so I can easily get this and a little lower out of the open baffle main woofers. Crossing them to some kind of super sub at 16 Hz will be no problem.

I don't know if I will ever build anything. Again it just depends on what ideas arise. If some really cool solution comes up I'll probably have to try it just for the fun of it.

mk
post #4 of 29
Though I've never heard one, I will assume that IB won't work if you're concerned with bothering your neighboors. The low frequency sound will probably be just as loud in your attic as it would be in your living room. Which means all that sound would drift right out the attic and into the neighborhood through the venting.
So it would be like listening to your theater with all the windows in your home theater open.

But I think building several or one very large enclosure in the attic would be great. And you wouldn't have to worry about sound transmission as much.
post #5 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Eddie View Post

Though I've never heard one, I will assume that IB won't work if you're concerned with bothering your neighboors. The low frequency sound will probably be just as loud in your attic as it would be in your living room. Which means all that sound would drift right out the attic and into the neighborhood through the venting.
So it would be like listening to your theater with all the windows in your home theater open.

But I think building several or one very large enclosure in the attic would be great. And you wouldn't have to worry about sound transmission as much.

That's true. I guess technically IB is defined by Richard Small as a box larger than 1/3 Vas or at least I seem to remember that being the case. It would definitely need to be enclosed though one way or the other. Given that it will only be used for very low frequency it would only be an occasional rumble the neighbors would hear but it's still better to isolate it.

I'm not liking ported solutions thus far just playing with some Dayton 15's. To get that low you end up with just a narrow band peak at the tuned frequency. This may take a more creative solution than just a really big ported box. I'm just going to need to move a lot of surface area, possibly multiple large cones driving a manifold opening into the room. Maybe just another 24 of the same Reference 15's in a configuration like that. They would have significantly more output in the single digit Hz range in large sealed boxes than they currently do in OB. That's probably my best bet. Of course eventually my HT is going to end up on the first floor if I keep putting weight up there. The current OB subs weigh in at 700 lbs each.

I know someone that has had tremendous success driving a larger home made diaphragm with high excursion small woofers. Basically he just used the small woofers as motors to drive his home made diaphragm. With something like that I could have enormous cone area in the attic opening into the theatre through a manifold and it would keep weight and cost down.

mk
post #6 of 29
I'm at a loss as to why OB would be better than IB for a sub. No box issues for the IB and less excursion issues due to cancellation.

A couple of people I have spoken with who own high output capability OBs, venting either outside or into roof spaces, have said that the noise outside from the IB is less than you would think and far less obvious than doof doof cars driving by. I assume this is because of the lack of rhythmic content in movie LF soundtracks.
post #7 of 29
Well, if you went IB, and were worried about bass bothering the neighbors, you could build sub enclosures completely seperate of your theater, but with drivers out of phase and in close vicinity to your IB manifolds...The key would be to have those drivers out of phase to cancel out the bass in the attic. In my mind, it's a waste of drivers but should greatly help.

I was thinking of something kind'a crazy, like 16 of those AE IB15 drivers. 4 manifolds of 4 drivers.
post #8 of 29
I have 4 18" drivers (ficar audio Q18s) in my family room ceiling...I love my IB, best sub SQ I have heard, best at go very low, with little power....very clean and easy to install. I did a simply IB array.

Draw back, its loud in other rooms and it vibrates anything in my house ....no way to control it. My HT room has ported and sealed subs.....its different but still great.

Yes, you can wake up the everyone on the block.
post #9 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

I'm at a loss as to why OB would be better than IB for a sub. No box issues for the IB and less excursion issues due to cancellation.

A couple of people I have spoken with who own high output capability OBs, venting either outside or into roof spaces, have said that the noise outside from the IB is less than you would think and far less obvious than doof doof cars driving by. I assume this is because of the lack of rhythmic content in movie LF soundtracks.

both my 4 subs in my HT room over my garage (Not sound proof) and my IB array can be heard by everyone on the street

The worst thing about the IB array though is that the backwaves definitely go into other rooms for me that isnt good considering my two baby girls are behind the family room so its pointless for me to run the IB much any more
post #10 of 29
Knowing what else the OP has I'd imagine him doing an 8 driver isobaric infinite baffle or something equally crazy.


How about 24 of those 8" tangband horn subs all firing into the theater from the attic?
post #11 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

Well, if you went IB, and were worried about bass bothering the neighbors, you could build sub enclosures completely seperate of your theater, but with drivers out of phase and in close vicinity to your IB manifolds...The key would be to have those drivers out of phase to cancel out the bass in the attic. In my mind, it's a waste of drivers but should greatly help.

I was thinking of something kind'a crazy, like 16 of those AE IB15 drivers. 4 manifolds of 4 drivers.

Yeah that would actually work but like you said probably a waste of drivers. Considering I'm only wanting to use this thing for about 16 Hz down it probably isn't an issue anyway. The houses are a good 50' apart too so that also helps. Music doesn't normally extend below 16 Hz and movies usually only do it for a few short times even in the most intense movies. At that range they would never hear it and it would have to be pretty intense for them to feel it. Of course they might hear higher harmonic noise coming from the vibration of the house.

Probably just going with a very large IB will be the best option and not worry about the neighbors. Realistically I probably should have done this to start and made my dipole subs smaller cutting them off up around 25 Hz or so. At that cutoff the dipoles could be much more reasonable in size. In fact, cut them off at 32 Hz and they would need be only 1/8 their current size. Then again who in this hobby wants to be realistic or reasonable? Not me

mk
post #12 of 29
Picture of said (huge) dipoles?
post #13 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

Picture of said (huge) dipoles?

http://www.mfk-projects.com/theatre_woofer.htm

mk
post #14 of 29
Quote:


Probably just going with a very large IB will be the best option and not worry about the neighbors. Realistically I probably should have done this to start and made my dipole subs smaller cutting them off up around 25 Hz or so. At that cutoff the dipoles could be much more reasonable in size. In fact, cut them off at 32 Hz and they would need be only 1/8 their current size. Then again who in this hobby wants to be realistic or reasonable? Not me

Hah, I remember seeing your thread over on Home Theater construction a year or so ago and suggesting you post over here. I was thinking then that you should have went IB then but you definitely love that major design undertaking

Its what DIY is all about, I have more speaker drivers, more projects then I do rooms in my house
post #15 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Its what DIY is all about, I have more speaker drivers, more projects then I do rooms in my house

I know that feeling!

mk
LL
post #16 of 29
Only 16hz and down? Well then go for the IB! How much content 16hz and below is there in movies and music? Hardly any at all. So as far as neighboors are concerned, they are only hearing an occasional thunder from the rainstorms we have around here. Like that great one we had on Thursday night. And really, 16hz and below is not overly audible.
Once again, I have no firsthand experience with IB. But it's reputation is for ultra low, ultra clean bass.
post #17 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montekay View Post

I know that feeling!

mk

lmao, wow.....nicely organized, looks like a Pro shop!
post #18 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Eddie View Post

So as far as neighboors are concerned, they are only hearing an occasional thunder from the rainstorms we have around here. Like that great one we had on Thursday night.

Did we get any rain out of that? I'm actually 7 ~ 8 miles south of Hutto. Last time I talked to anyone back home it hadn't rained since I left on this trip.

Yeah you're right, if I do anything it's almost certainly going to need to be IB.

mk
post #19 of 29
I was at a sports bar in Round Rock watching the Magic/Lakers NBA playoffs game with about a hundred other people, when the storm rolled through. It knocked out the satellite signal for a good 30 minutes or so. We also got huge rains, heavy winds and hail. And a report of a tornado making it's way up the 35 freeway in our direction. I never did see any tornado, but when the satellite came back on, the news showed some interesting pictures of "tornado" sightings.
post #20 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Eddie View Post

I was at a sports bar in Round Rock watching the Magic/Lakers NBA playoffs game with about a hundred other people, when the storm rolled through. It knocked out the satellite signal for a good 30 minutes or so. We also got huge rains, heavy winds and hail. And a report of a tornado making it's way up the 35 freeway in our direction. I never did see any tornado, but when the satellite came back on, the news showed some interesting pictures of "tornado" sightings.

Oh great another tornado! You know while my woofer system was under construction it was damaged and had to be partially rebuilt when an F2 dipped down and destroyed the garage doors damaging everything in the garage. Fortunately the insurance paid for both materials and labor hours for me to rebuild them.

I'm coming in Monday night, hopefully the house and theatre are still there.

mk
post #21 of 29
Yeah i don't think you should worry too much about sound quality below 18 hz ...

Your only concern should be low distortion - because distortion components would actually be in the audible range.

So make sure whatever you do you're using 100% Linear drivers. It will be kinda stupid when all you can hear from your sub is the distortion not the output itself.

Maybe you can do quarter wave pipe tuned to like 8 hz ? On the other hand since you would be operating below pressurization sealed would be a good choice.

I say do sealed using Linear 18" drivers. When i say sealed that includes infinite baffle. Although it might be a good idea to enclose the back of the drivers or your ceiling may get ripped out by the pressure differential from both sides.

I would like to use that Attic as a BASS TRAP ... an IB might interfere with that
post #22 of 29
Monte,

I experimented with a large multiple driver OB woofer system and was never able to attain the deep bass performance of an IB.

So....

Yes an IB is what you want if the goal is to match the performance of the rest of the system.

If the attic has a normal amount of insulation for TX, there's minimal worry about disturbing the neighbors.

IB drivers don't have huge magnets so the weight of the system doesn't burden the structure.

You know where to find me if you have further questions

Regards,
ThomasW
post #23 of 29
post #24 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montekay View Post

http://www.mfk-projects.com/theatre_woofer.htm

mk

Ohh, I've seen those before. I just didn't know you were were him.


He's the person in the picture. Those are his subs.
post #25 of 29
oh, i got those picts from the orion site. I been wondering about those design.
post #26 of 29
+1 for an IB. Installation would be pretty straight forward with easy access to the attic.

My IB (3 12" SS drivers) isn't the biggest I've heard of, but it shakes a good portion of my house! SQ, IMO is excellent.

When I first got it running I ran some 20-30 hz tones through it (There isn't that much content below 20Hz to worry about) to see how much I might be annoying my new neighboors who are, on one side, about 25' away and on the other 65'. Unsurprisingly right outside my HT room (addition on the back of the house) it was pretty apparent.

But as I walked away from my house the impact dissipated pretty quickly. Beyond about 20' it wasn't bad at all.

I didn't have a Ratshack meter at the time, so I don't know how loud I was running the IB, but inside it was about as loud as was tolerable.

I wouldn't worry about it to much!
post #27 of 29
I like your sig.
post #28 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montekay View Post

Should I add a sub? Well the real truth is that I’ve finished my job here in the Philippines but our travel people can’t get me a flight home until Monday at least not without spending a couple more $$ than the cost of keeping me here so I’m screwed. So, bored, sitting here in the hotel I’m thinking, what ridiculous thing could I do for my HT next? Add a sub?

I have virtually unlimited attic space surrounding the theater. If I had utilized the available attic space to add additional rooms to the upper floor of the house I could have easily added more than 1000 sq ft. I chose instead to keep the theatre surround by attic to make after the fact cable routing easier and to eliminate the possibility of disturbing the neighbors. So, IB, enormous sealed or ported baffles are all possibilities.

My opinion is that SQ at low frequency is obtained best in the following order. OB, IB, Large sealed box, Large ported box. Small boxes and BP drop below the acceptable SQ threshold.

The target frequency band would be 18 Hz or perhaps 16 Hz and below with sufficient output to maintain 120 dB at least an octave lower with low distortion. If I had $30K laying around I would go with a couple of those fan things but I don’t so I need a cheaper alternative. Given that this drops us below the frequency band of any music, SQ requirements are somewhat diminished so maybe I can consider the large ported option since it should be the most efficient means of doing this.

Anyway, while I’m sitting here doing nothing maybe I’ll model some drivers to see what’s possible. Maybe I could even utilize the attic space to make some kind of huge horn? I guess there are a number of ways of going about it. I’m not sure I will ever do any of them, it just depends on what intriguing ideas come up and of course on finding sufficient time at home to do it. I expect to have the surrounds finished and in place this coming week which will finally make the theatre fully operational. I still have all the cosmetic stuff to do however so if a sub project gets added to the list it may be awhile before it materializes.

mk

why such a hater of ported subs?

model up a quartet of these:

http://www.usspeaker.com/eighteensound-18LW1400-1.htm

with a little room gain (in ported subs tuned to 20hz with a mediocre pro amp), you will be over 130db in room from 18hz up. what more do you want?!?!
post #29 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

why such a hater of ported subs?

model up a quartet of these:

http://www.usspeaker.com/eighteensound-18LW1400-1.htm

with a little room gain (in ported subs tuned to 20hz with a mediocre pro amp), you will be over 130db in room from 18hz up. what more do you want?!?!

I already have 18 Hz, I want 8 Hz. Anyway, I have to run catch a plane back to the US. Taxi is here in five minutes.

mk
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