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DSD over HDMI - Players - Page 3

post #61 of 225
Thanks, Kal. I will go through my local Classe dealer to see if Classe has any more information and will post if so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rubyrad
I own a Classe SSP-800 pre-pro and was looking to buy a new multichannel SACD player as my current SACD player (Lexicon RT-10) is now somewhat outdated. As the Sony ES 5400 sends DSD only through HDMI, and the Classe does not decode a DSD data stream directly (as I understand it), are the two units incompatible?

The Sony player will output PCM from SACD over HDMI. I did one test with an early SSP-800 and they failed to communicate but the system was at a local shop and I cannot be certain of the actual setup.

Subsequently, I was successful in getting the XA5400ES to communicate (SACD - PCM) via HDMI to an ARCAM AV888 and the Meridian HD621/861.

Since there are no switches or menus to select PCM output, it would seem that the EDID handshaking is at the core of the issue. I would be surprised if the current SSP-800s would not work with it but, as of this moment, I have no such evidence.
__________________
Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Contributing Editor, Stereophile
www.stereophile.com/musicintheround/ info and will post if helpful.
post #62 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by msilverz View Post

Yes.

Matty


Very cool, thanks


Djoel
post #63 of 225
Thread Starter 
I've added the Cambridge Audio Blu-Ray player, which as far as I can tell is the first Blu-Ray player that will transmit DSD over HDMI. (The Denon sends only PCM.)

Matty
post #64 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by msilverz View Post

I've added the Cambridge Audio Blu-Ray player, which as far as I can tell is the first Blu-Ray player that will transmit DSD over HDMI. (The Denon sends only PCM.)

Matty

The Oppo BD-83 does as well.
post #65 of 225
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

The Oppo BD-83 does as well.

Of course! It's even on my list. What a doofus.

Matty
post #66 of 225
Oppo BD-83 Has anyone tried the TrondheimSolistene Blu-Ray disc DIVERMENTI in the BD-83 ? This disc loads far too slowly in the TEVION DVD player 1100 UKT but does sound very good from such a cheap player from Curtis Int. The reason I bought this player was because as far as I am aware it is the only one easily hackable for multi-region Blu Ray discs.
post #67 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disbeliever View Post

Oppo BD-83 Has anyone tried the TrondheimSolistene Blu-Ray disc DIVERMENTI in the BD-83 ?

Yes, of course.
post #68 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrilmartin View Post

I'm a lazy epicurean... I drink Champagne for a living

brings a whole new meaning to the term vocational rehab

seriously how does one sign up and train for such an occupation?

thanks for the incredible description of the dac diferences.
post #69 of 225
Hi Kal,
I would be interested to know which 'Divermenti' disc sounds best to you Blu Ray or SACD. On Britten's Playful Pizzicato I found the Blu Ray sounds crisper with more attack and the Sony DA5400ES display reads LPCM 48 KHz. With SACD disc on the Sony XA5400ES sound is more mellow, appears to be slower, However the Sony Display reads DSD. I prefer the Blu Ray disc sound coming from a very cheap BD player.
post #70 of 225
I, too, prefer the BR but I get much higher bit rates.
post #71 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I, too, prefer the BR but I get much higher bit rates.

How High is Higher and what equipment produces this higher bit rate ?
post #72 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disbeliever View Post

How High is Higher and what equipment produces this higher bit rate ?

I get to see 192 on the display! Oppo BDP-83 and Integra DTC-9.8!
post #73 of 225
Hi Kal My Tevion Player is badged in US as Momitsu only $158 in Aldi UK. The menu system on the BD 'Divermenti' disc is difficult to operate with this cheap player but even 48KHz bit rate it sounds excellent. I have just tried the disc in my local High End AV shop on a top Denon system and the receiver showed 192 KHz but quite frankly it sounded exactly the same as when played at only 48KHz the shop said there is virtually no difference in sound quality for the different bit rates. I set my Tevion/ Momitsu player for 96 KHz but it will only play at 48KHz. Interstingly Blu Ray sound is LPCM and sounds better as you confirm, than the 2L SACD ,which is DSD, all rather confusing.
post #74 of 225
LPCM 1x / 2x / 4x / DSD formats all "sound" different - the statement "LPCM 1x vs. LPCM 4x" doesn't make any difference will depend on how the original media was recorded and mastered, but also on the quality of the playback system; this is also true for DSD.
The advantage of DSD is to allow a resolution equivalent to 192kHz/24 bits (or even 384kHz/24 bits) at the equivalent bandwidth of a 96kHz/24 bits signal. Not to say that DSD/SACD is, or will remain a popular format, everything points to Blu Ray Audio being the next big thing - but it is an elegant solution for the CD/DVD era. Blu Ray can store and playback any multichannel content up to LPCM 8x, where differences of resolution and dynamic range with SACD are negligible. Both formats are well suited to Audio (Stereo or Multichannel), although SACDs are limited to 6 channels, and the most sophisticated multichannel systems will call for 8 or even 12 channels, all supported by blu-ray. This said, the original caveat remains: the perceived sound quality will depend on the recording/mastering of the art, and the replay system of the user...
post #75 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denophile View Post

brings a whole new meaning to the term vocational rehab

seriously how does one sign up and train for such an occupation?

thanks for the incredible description of the dac diferences.

Thank you Denophile... I don't know if one can "sign up" for the champagne thing- it was by invitation only . DAC architecture is one of my favorite subjects - I'm not good enough for analog, and way too bored by digital...

Cheers!
post #76 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrilmartin View Post

LPCM 1x / 2x / 4x / DSD formats all "sound" different - the statement "LPCM 1x vs. LPCM 4x" doesn't make any difference will depend on how the original media was recorded and mastered, but also on the quality of the playback system; this is also true for DSD.

Yes, it's mainly differences in mastering/equipment that are responsible for audible differences between formats. Not the formats themselves (since they have no inherent "sound").

But what's "LPCM 1x"? 32kHz? 44.1kHz? 48kHz?

Quote:


The advantage of DSD is to allow a resolution equivalent to 192kHz/24 bits (or even 384kHz/24 bits) at the equivalent bandwidth of a 96kHz/24 bits signal.

In practice it's more like 18-20bits/70-80kHz, but on the other hand that is more than you'll ever need for playback.
DSD was an pretty good idea 20 years ago, but the introduction of the multi-bit modulator (10 years ago) pretty much killed any advantage DSD had over regular PCM (DSD is of course also a PCM-format).
post #77 of 225
Once Blu Ray music takes off if ever, then it will kill CD and SACD. You plug-in your Oppo BDP-83 and send everything bitstream to your pre/pro and let it do it's magic

DTS Master Audio on Music is amazing, if you like Classical try 2L

http://www.2l.no/
post #78 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Yes, of course.

Kal, When are you planning to review the SSP-800 with the new board?
post #79 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Kal, When are you planning to review the SSP-800 with the new board?

Whenever they send it.
post #80 of 225
Hi-Fi News says do not buy an Oppo BDP-83 if you are interested in SACD. They put their product on the market knowing it was faulty.
post #81 of 225
What's do they claim is fualty about it? I thought that's what the FW was for.

Djoel
post #82 of 225
Djoel. Barry Willis HFN & RR says Oppo Digital, whose BDP-83 received praise from me in the Sept. issue, with a caveat about possible noise with SACD's not apparent with other formats. I've since verified there is indeed a consistant spitting noise with dynamic peaks in all channels when playing SACDs. A very bored-sounding customer support person at Oppo told me that'company engineers are aware of the problem and are working on a solution.' He suggested that I upgrade the player's firmware over the internet. I did so, in the process altering the setup menu so that it no longer matches what's printed in the owner's manual, but not fixing the SACD problem. My name went on a mailing list to be informed of an impending cure. To date there's been none. It's a mystery how this player got out of the factory with a known glitch. Although now an audiophile niche format, SACD has been around a long time; there's no mystery about implementing a proper decoder. For Oppo , SACD capability was not a priority, or worse, the player was shipped with a known defect. It's still an excellent performer with Blu-ray,DVD & CD, but if SACD is important to you, don't buy this machine.
post #83 of 225
Hmm... Home Theater magazine just named the Oppo BDP83 "Best Source Component" and "Product of the Year". Does the SACD spitting noise occurs via both RCA and HDMI? How did this escape all the beta testing that was done?

Interestingly, my 980H does not exhibit this noise on SACDs (or any other medium), at least via RCA as I do not yet have HDMI capability in my prepro.
post #84 of 225
I also have the Oppo 980H which does not suffer any problems via HDMI which I find sounds better than analogue RCA interconnects .I am mainly interested in MCH SACD which I find sounds better than Stereo only SACD,despite what Ken Ishiwata says or does not say. . It is a mystery that the Oppo 980H does not suffer from the SACD problems of the BDP-83 which many consumers have reported.
post #85 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disbeliever View Post

I also have the Oppo 980H which does not suffer any problems via HDMI which I find sounds better than analogue RCA interconnects .I am mainly interested in MCH SACD which I find sounds better than Stereo only SACD,despite what Ken Ishiwata says or does not say. . It is a mystery that the Oppo 980H does not suffer from the SACD problems of the BDP-83 which many consumers have reported.

Disbeliever, what receiver are you using? Also, are you finding any issues with DVD-A over HDMI wth the Oppo?

I ask because I am upgrading to possibly the Yamaha 1800 and want to add a SACD/DVD-A player and want to make sure all works together over HDMI. I have read so many different things that I am not sure any of this works and what equipment to get.
post #86 of 225
Receiver I use & recommend the Sony DA5400ES(UK version) pre-out into my stereo integrated amplifier for front speakers ,the receiver for centre & rear channels but sounds very good on its own. i.e. without an extra amplifier. Then you should use it in Bi-Amp mode.for US you need the Sony DA6400ES. I do not have any DVD A discs and best player to use for SACD is the Sony XA5400ES has lowest published measured jitter especially for MCH surround sound. Also excellent with RB CD. The Sony DA6400ES incoprates D.L.L for improving sound of early CD's the Sony combination is excellent. The Oppo 980H player has no problems that I am aware of and is very good value.If you requre a cheaper receiver look at the new Onkyo 707 which has a very good specification .
post #87 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disbeliever View Post

Djoel. Barry Willis HFN & RR says Oppo Digital, whose BDP-83 received praise from me in the Sept. issue, with a caveat about possible noise with SACD's not apparent with other formats. I've since verified there is indeed a consistant spitting noise with dynamic peaks in all channels when playing SACDs. A very bored-sounding customer support person at Oppo told me that'company engineers are aware of the problem and are working on a solution.' He suggested that I upgrade the player's firmware over the internet. I did so, in the process altering the setup menu so that it no longer matches what's printed in the owner's manual, but not fixing the SACD problem. My name went on a mailing list to be informed of an impending cure. To date there's been none. It's a mystery how this player got out of the factory with a known glitch. Although now an audiophile niche format, SACD has been around a long time; there's no mystery about implementing a proper decoder. For Oppo , SACD capability was not a priority, or worse, the player was shipped with a known defect. It's still an excellent performer with Blu-ray,DVD & CD, but if SACD is important to you, don't buy this machine.

Disbeliever, is this all Barry's HIFiNews quote (i.e when do your own comments start)? Thanks
post #88 of 225
Can this be an isolated problem with the reviewers player ? I haven't heard anyone else mention this until now..I will pay more attention when listening through Hdmi muliti Ch with a SSP and analouge using my 2 channel pre.


DJoel
post #89 of 225
On the Audio Asylum forum Barry Willis now says a firmware update has cured the problem with analogue interconnects but fails to say what the postion is with HDMI , IMO far more important for surround sound. I personally never trust the info from Oppo . Every time I have contacted them their replies are usually unsatisfactory & evasive. Furthermore most magazine reviews are inconclusive ,you have to listen for yourself. .
post #90 of 225
And the AA response is unregistered. Let's hope it's actually Barry and not some random Oppo fanboy.

BTW, I would think the issue would be very different with HDMI (bitstreamed) vs analog outs (Oppo's own DACs). If the output was distorted/compressed/clipped it would stand to reason that the DACs and their subsequent analog stage would likely be to blame (some oversaturation/gain issue). I'm surprised anyone heard it via HDMI at all.
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