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PLIIz Height Speaker Review - Page 2

post #31 of 172
6/17/09 at 10:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bing View Post

What's next? A ceiling speaker to totally complete an overhead fly-by? Then after that we'll do an in-floor speaker so snakes are creepier.

Yes! Congratulations, you have exactly anticipated the forthcoming SHV broadcast standard which supports 22.2 channel audio [including the speakers you "guessed": Center Overhead, Left Low, Center Low, and Right Low]. NHK Japan TV anticipates starting SHV to-home broadcasting 'within 10 years' with a view to it's eventual replacement of HDTV.
LL
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post #32 of 172
6/17/09 at 10:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

You should have spent a few grand of that sum on construction/renovation for better left channel & right channel speaker placement. The screen & center channel speaker in the alcove, quite frankly, sucks.

AJ

I have never had a single complaint from anyone who has watched a movie in my theater. I stand by my sound. It is excellent and more then gets the job done. Who knows, maybe I get more out of PLIIz with my speakers like this. Why would that be a bad thing? Again, I am happy and that is all that matters.
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post #33 of 172
6/17/09 at 10:12pm
Thread Starter 
Let's try and keep this "thread" about PLIIz Height sound and not my theater. Seriously, let's have more "real world" users post their experiences.

BACK ON TOPIC...
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post #34 of 172
6/17/09 at 10:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Let's try and keep this "thread" about PLIIz Height sound and not my theater. Seriously, let's have more "real world" users post their experiences.

Yes, I agree that we need more "real world" reports, as we should not generalize any conclusions on the efficacy of Dolby Pro Logic IIz from your less than ideal speaker (too low, too widely spaced) layout.

AJ
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post #35 of 172
6/18/09 at 4:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Yes, I agree that we need more "real world" reports, as we should not generalize any conclusions on the efficacy of Dolby Pro Logic IIz from your less than ideal speaker (too low, too widely spaced) layout.

AJ

What is your problem? Have you ever been in my theater to hear the sound? It is an open room with plenty of open space. The speaker placement works perfectly the way it is. Show us a pic of your perfect speaker placement. Move on because you are not contributing to this thread.
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post #36 of 172
6/18/09 at 4:23am
Thread Starter 
I will try and post more evaluations and I will also post more comparisons with different receivers that come out with PLIIz Height.
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post #37 of 172
6/18/09 at 6:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I will try and post more evaluations and I will also post more comparisons with different receivers that come out with PLIIz Height.

Gents, keep it civil and let's avoid critiquing people's setups - joerod is doing a service for some of us and probably does not need unsolicited decorating and setup advice.

I have read some reviews that PLIIz is not that great with music. Does this hold true with concert videos?
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post #38 of 172
6/18/09 at 6:28am
Thread Starter 
Thanks winston. I will check out a few concerts later today.
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post #39 of 172
6/18/09 at 7:21am
joerod,

Joe, there's no question you have a reference theater which some of us would drool to have so I have no doubt your speakers do a fantastic job for you

What I think some people bottom line really are asking is how well this will work with tall speakers, more like full towers or in my case, planars & electrostats. Can you possibly set up such an evaluation in your HT?

Given that my fronts are 6 ft tall, I'm skeptical (or at least don't have any idea) how much difference I'll hear with 2 small sats for heights with only 2.5 ft clearance above the fronts to work with.

I'm glad you gave heights a good review, since the 3 published reviews I've read so far are not as favorable. This means there's "hope" that it can make a difference. We need more owners to chime in here.

And on that note, I'm actually quite surprised not one person in the Denon 4310 thread and not many Onkyo posters are commenting on it at all. Believe me, I'm asking. And it's crickets

I really appreciate you taking the time to let us know your experience with it, because almost no one else is. And I trust your experience in a real world HT rather than some arranged demo using games No offense to Dolby, but movies is the NO.1 primary interest not people playing shooter games on their HT's.

In addition to concerts, I'd like to know how it helps or hurts various music recordings and some other effects-laden movies.

Thanks much for all your contributions. You are indeed cutting edge, man

ss9001
Steve
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post #40 of 172
6/18/09 at 7:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

joerod,

Joe, there's no question you have a reference theater which some of us would drool to have so I have no doubt your speakers do a fantastic job for you

What I think some people bottom line really are asking is how well this will work with tall speakers, more like full towers or in my case, planars & electrostats. Can you possibly set up such an evaluation in your HT?

Given that my fronts are 6 ft tall, I'm skeptical (or at least don't have any idea) how much difference I'll hear with 2 small sats for heights with only 2.5 ft clearance above the fronts to work with.

I'm glad you gave heights a good review, since the 3 published reviews I've read so far are not as favorable. This means there's "hope" that it can make a difference. We need more owners to chime in here.

And on that note, I'm actually quite surprised not one person in the Denon 4310 thread and not many Onkyo posters are commenting on it at all. Believe me, I'm asking. And it's crickets

I really appreciate you taking the time to let us know your experience with it, because almost no one else is. And I trust your experience in a real world HT rather than some arranged demo using games No offense to Dolby, but movies is the NO.1 primary interest not people playing shooter games on their HT's.

In addition to concerts, I'd like to know how it helps or hurts various music recordings and some other effects-laden movies.

Thanks much for all your contributions. You are indeed cutting edge, man

ss9001
Steve

I'd like to second this. I really appreciate the impressions from Joe.

Lets not be rude about people's theater. Joe obviously has a fantastic setup.

I have the same question as SS9001, I have 5' mains that will nearly be to the ceiling so I don't think IIz would benefit me much. That doesn't mean it can't make difference for people who don't have tall main speakers, it would just be interesting to hear more feedback and see where the benefit is greatest.

Also, as a HT gamer I think the benefits of surround gaming should not be overlooked. Gaming is one of the only sources where you can get discrete content in different surround speakers and surround gaming can be unbelievable.
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post #41 of 172
6/18/09 at 8:19am
Thread Starter 
I just ordered a set of BD2000s (mains) which are over 40" tall. They are supposed to be excellent speakers. I will test it with them and report back.
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post #42 of 172
6/18/09 at 8:23am
Fantastic!!!

ss9001
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post #43 of 172
6/18/09 at 8:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I just ordered a set of BD2000s (mains) which are over 40" tall. They are supposed to be excellent speakers. I will test it with them and report back.

Thanks for the reviews Joe...

I'm kinda in s9's position. I have smaller speakers but they are half way up the wall behind a transparent screen with not that much height left for more speakers. Maybe 2 feet? How tall are your ceilings?
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post #44 of 172
6/18/09 at 9:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

What is your problem? Have you ever been in my theater to hear the sound? It is an open room with plenty of open space. The speaker placement works perfectly the way it is. Show us a pic of your perfect speaker placement. Move on because you are not contributing to this thread.

No, what is your problem? This is an AV science forum. Can you not accept some constructive criticism or peer review of your experiment?

Your system may sound great, but it could sound even better w/ more ideal speaker configuration. More germanely, though, your too low, too widely spaced, in wall speaker placement may affect/enhance the efficacy of Dolby Pro Logic IIz in your room.

Regardless, thank you, joerod, for sharing your findings w/ us. As others have noted, anecdotal user reports on Dolby Pro Logic IIz have been few and far between. Yours is one of the first. That said, while your experience is interesting, we would be very hasty to extrapolate anything about the performance of Dolby Pro Logic IIz outside of your non representative set up.

AJ
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post #45 of 172
6/18/09 at 9:33am
What type of speaker is recommended for the front effects? Monopole, dipole or direct?
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post #46 of 172
6/18/09 at 9:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

No, what is your problem? This is an AV science forum. Can you not accept some constructive criticism or peer review of your experiment?

Your system may sound great, but it could sound even better w/ more ideal speaker configuration. More germanely, though, your too low, too widely spaced, in wall speaker placement may affect/enhance the efficacy of Dolby Pro Logic IIz in your room.

Regardless, thank you, joerod, for sharing your findings w/ us. As others have noted, anecdotal user reports on Dolby Pro Logic IIz have been few and far between. Yours is one of the first. That said, while your experience is interesting, we would be very hasty to extrapolate anything about the performance of Dolby Pro Logic IIz outside of your non representative set up.

AJ


posts like these are probably why we have heard so few comments from 607 owners. most of us are amateurs pursuing a hobby and doing a lot of the work on our own.

we should be mindful of the work and effort folks put into not only their research but braving the forum stream of avs piranhas that love driveby comments.

joerod, keep posting and IGNORE the criticism. I appreciate it and many others do in evaluating the efficacy and quality of PL IIz
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post #47 of 172
6/18/09 at 10:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

posts like these are probably why we have heard so few comments from 607 owners. most of us are amateurs pursuing a hobby and doing a lot of the work on our own.

"Amateur." Some might say "amateurish."

Strive for a higher standard, people.

AJ
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post #48 of 172
6/18/09 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex solomon View Post

What type of speaker is recommended for the front effects? Monopole, dipole or direct?

(1) It depends somewhat on your room plus speaker location geometries.

(2) This Sound and Vision Magazine article "First Listen: Dolby Pro Logic IIz" addresses the issue to a [very] limited extent.

(3) You may keep the height speakers for several receiver/player generations: some future receiver/player combination might support discrete 7.1 height playback.

(4) My suggestion would be to try direct first, and - if it is acceptable - to stick with that. [Contrary opinions UNwelcome, but anticipated!]
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post #49 of 172
6/18/09 at 1:01pm
Even w/tall fronts IIz has the potential for a big difference, depending on placement.

The height speaker placement recommendation for Audyssey DSX is at a 45 deg elevation angle form the listeners' ears, and I don't see why that would be incorrect for IIx.

This means for a lot of setups the speakers would be on/in the ceiling between the listeners and front wall.
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post #50 of 172
6/18/09 at 1:10pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks Noah, I will take that under consideration.
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post #51 of 172
6/18/09 at 1:27pm
soundchex,

Thanks for the link.
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post #52 of 172
6/18/09 at 1:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Even w/tall fronts IIz has the potential for a big difference, depending on placement.

The height speaker placement recommendation for Audyssey DSX is at a 45 deg elevation angle form the listeners' ears, and I don't see why that would be incorrect for IIx.

This means for a lot of setups the speakers would be on/in the ceiling between the listeners and front wall.

Thanks, noah. My HT room is very similar to joerod. I think I will place the speakers where he has his. No inwalls here.
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post #53 of 172
6/18/09 at 1:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

The height speaker placement recommendation for Audyssey DSX is at a 45 deg elevation angle form the listeners' ears, and I don't see why that would be incorrect for IIx.

It's important to remember that the DSX height speaker placement is 45 deg off centerline (versus 30 deg off centerline , i.e., over the mains, for DPLIIz); this translates into higher placement than if you compute 45 deg elevation above the mains. Notwithstanding any of the foregoing: The placement criterion for the DPLIIz height speakers quoted in several articles is 3 feet above the mains...?! [I'm guessing that's supposed to be tweeter-to-tweeter vertical separation...?!]

Note also that there are a few quotes by Dolby reps/techs in articles which say that a placement 'slightly wider' than "over the mains" is also acceptable. With that in mind, I'm taking as a working hypothesis that the same placement can be 'acceptable' for both DSX and DPLIIz front height speakers, and also for Yamaha Front Presence speakers [thereby facilitating swapping receiver brands in the future, without the need to relocate DSX/DPLIIz front height/Yamaha Front Presence speakers!]
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post #54 of 172
6/18/09 at 3:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

...I'm taking as a working hypothesis that the same placement can be 'acceptable' for both DSX and DPLIIz front height speakers...

Denon seems to think so. The new 4310CI supports both DSX and PLIIz, and the speaker installation instructions just give a range of angles without being specific. Fronts are shown as 22-30 degrees, Front Heights as 22-45 degrees.
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post #55 of 172
6/18/09 at 5:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

It's important to remember that the DSX height speaker placement is 45 deg off centerline (versus 30 deg off centerline , i.e., over the mains, for DPLIIz); this translates into higher placement than if you compute 45 deg elevation above the mains. Notwithstanding any of the foregoing: The placement criterion for the DPLIIz height speakers quoted in several articles is 3 feet above the mains...?! [I'm guessing that's supposed to be tweeter-to-tweeter vertical separation...?!]

Note also that there are a few quotes by Dolby reps/techs in articles which say that a placement 'slightly wider' than "over the mains" is also acceptable. With that in mind, I'm taking as a working hypothesis that the same placement can be 'acceptable' for both DSX and DPLIIz front height speakers, and also for Yamaha Front Presence speakers [thereby facilitating swapping receiver brands in the future, without the need to relocate DSX/DPLIIz front height/Yamaha Front Presence speakers!]

I have mine 48" above the mains. When I get the BD2000s here I will experiment more.
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post #56 of 172
6/18/09 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I have mine 48" above the mains. When I get the BD2000s here I will experiment more.

Quote:


From the Sound and Vision article: "Dolby recommends at least three feet between the main speakers and the height speakers."

So I would expect that 'more than 3 feet' - especially in a larger space - will be ok.
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post #57 of 172
6/18/09 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Denon seems to think so. The new 4310CI supports both DSX and PLIIz, and the speaker installation instructions just give a range of angles without being specific. Fronts are shown as 22-30 degrees, Front Heights as 22-45 degrees.

... Yes, you probably just want to ensure the front height speakers are spaced at least as far apart as the mains.
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post #58 of 172
6/18/09 at 7:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I have mine 48" above the mains. When I get the BD2000s here I will experiment more.

Joe..
Try moving the Height front L/R loudspeakers up and down some..
We have found that depending upon the loudspeaker itself (most likely due to its vertical dispersion output pattern) that even moving 4-6" makes an audible difference. This may be due to the point that as the room & ceiling are interacting differently for the loudspeaker's reflections..

Additionally..
We find that by setting the channel trim L/R height channels down slightly (about -2dB lower) than our floor-standing full-range loudspeakers used for the L/R front channels makes an audible difference as well. The overall audible effects of the soundstage varies with the Height, and once you turn them OFF the system seems to collapse and have a more boxey sound.

As mentioned previously, when the Height loudspeakers are ON the entire soundstage is more open and transparent. In my opinion the room factors such as peaks/resonances/nulls are minimized at least audibly to the listener. Here I think the entire room is working better with the loudspeakers and electronics. One other particular thing we noted is that the listener's position now seems less critical and the audio is more closely balanced from 1 seat to another. Previously when one moves from 1 listener's position to another the system would sound differently.

Just my $0.025...
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post #59 of 172
6/18/09 at 7:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Joe..
Try moving the Height front L/R loudspeakers up and down some..
We have found that depending upon the loudspeaker itself (most likely due to its vertical dispersion output pattern) that even moving 4-6" makes an audible difference. This may be due to the point that as the room & ceiling are interacting differently for the loudspeaker's reflections..

Additionally..
We find that by setting the channel trim L/R height channels down slightly (about -2dB lower) than our floor-standing full-range loudspeakers used for the L/R front channels makes an audible difference as well. The overall audible effects of the soundstage varies with the Height, and once you turn them OFF the system seems to collapse and have a more boxey sound.

As mentioned previously, when the Height loudspeakers are ON the entire soundstage is more open and transparent. In my opinion the room factors such as peaks/resonances/nulls are minimized at least audibly to the listener. Here I think the entire room is working better with the loudspeakers and electronics. One other particular thing we noted is that the listener's position now seems less critical and the audio is more closely balanced from 1 seat to another. Previously when one moves from 1 listener's position to another the system would sound differently.

Just my $0.025...

Awesome. I appreciate it and will definitely try it.
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post #60 of 172
6/18/09 at 8:21pm
I have inwall speakers that have been unused since my last Yamaha receiver when they had presence speakers. So I would be all set although the inwalls are Boston Acoustic and my mains are Ascend Sierras. The inwalls are only about 2' higher the Sierras so not sure if that would be ideal.

One question regarding the Front height speakers and Audyssey. When using a 5.1 system does Audyssey measure all speakers including the front height speakers? I assume it does but I'm just curious.

All this new stuff and I just got the 886. I will have to wait for the 887 then of course wait a little longer till it hits shoponkyo.

Bill
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