PLIIz Height Speaker Review - Page 3

good review, cant wait for the 9.2 receivers

In response to that one dude who thinks PLIIz needs to be proved, I'm just laughing at this comment. Although "height sound" has only recently been properly channeled in through Dolby PLIIz, I've been Matrixing this kind of superior sound for over 5 years when 7.1 was first released. To this day, IMAX's 15,000 watt system nor Cine Capri's (Tempe, AZ) 44,000 watt super system have sounded as good as my set up. 7.1 front top, 7.1 front bottom, 7.1 back top, and 7.1 back bottom. To those of you scratching your heads, yeah it's doable and easy. And trust me, you do not need to spend so much money! All theaters matrix sound. All who have been to my place since 2004, walk away ruined for life. Or until they upgrade their home theaters. So yeah, Joe is spot on.

Can you post some pictures of your HT? What are you using for speakers and electronics?

Bill

First off, I want to say thanks to joerod for posting his review... and for modifying his HT to allow for PLIIz speakers... and for offering to try the setup with different fronts... and for his future comparison with another PLIIz equipped AVR.

I don't know about you all, but I just wish he would show a little more dedication to testing out this new format...



So, I resurrected some old KLH 2410 rears that I got for free from CC when I bought my 414Pro 15 some odd years ago and placed them on the top shelf of my entertainment center. Not the best placement, but it works for my HTVR (Home Tv Viewing Room). I've had them in place since I first installed my Onkyo 607 a few weeks ago, but I only ran Audyssey today and considered that a prereq before posting anything. I still haven't ran the FHs through the paces, but I wanted to post a quick comment about the following inquiry made earlier (I honestly thought someone would have gotten to it sooner):


I haven't tried out any Music DVDs, but as far as effects-laden movies, I was watching Transformers in IIz when Steve's question popped up in my mind. So I switched the Listening Mode to Dolby True HD and then back to Dolby PLIIz several times. First off, I noted that on the display the TrueHD icon did not disappear when switched to IIz mode. I played the same scene several times in both modes (Bumblebee scanning the new Camaro in the tunnel) to see if I could hear a difference in the fronts or center. None. Both the sound level as well as the "material" stayed the same in both settings. From my quick little impromptu test, I believe that the only thing that IIz does to a TrueHD soundtrack is add the Front Heights to the mix and does not take anything away from the other speakers. I have not tried a DTS soundtrack, so I can not comment on that.

I hope this answers your question about hurting the sound.

VSP

A few years back, there was an article on overhead channels using the 9.1 feature of the Parasound Halo C1/C2. The general concensus was the overchannel channels produced some pretty cool effects in movies, but the biggest surprise was how much they added to music.

Jigsta205, I'd also like additional details on what you are running. And joerod, thanks for all the experimentation and sharing the results.

Jigsta205, I'd also like additional details on what you are running. And joerod, thanks for all the experimentation and sharing the results. [/quote]


IN RESPONSE to those curious as to what equipment I use in my HT,
This may infuriate some and perplex others.
I'm especially aware of this since I've been following this site for at least three years and my fellow enthusiast's strong likes and dislikes for certain brands are IMO unsubstantial. I just recently decided to register at AVS to finally fuel my passion for HT and more specifically sound.
I have two 110 watt SONY 7.1 receivers($470 each in 2004 money). Ohh. Yes that's right SONY. I've tried the Comparable Onkyo's, Denon's, Harmon Kardons, and a few others. They're all actually great, but for my purposes the SONYs are for me untouchable.
For Center channels I'm using a SONY center. Directly above it A JBL center. 10 feet above it (I have a cathedral ceiling) Another Sony Center.
For Front channels I have two 1996 SONY towers on the left and right. (As the educated know, speaker tech hasn't dramatically changed under the $5,000 dollar range since their inception.) 6 Feet above those towers I have two bookshelf SONYs Matrixed into the Front B channels (For height superiority). Next to those SONY towers I have (what most around the net without foundation refer to as sleezy VAN speakers-whatever-the proof is in the sound) 2 AUDIOLINE towers. In between the SONYs and AUDIOLINES I have two no brand towers with mids tweeters and 12' subs Matrixed into the Front Channels.
In between the six towers I have one 12' sub KLH. And one 12' sub JBL, both down firing.
On that front wall in between the centers I have a 106 inch 2.5 gain DaLite screen.
Three feet in front of that screen and on the side walls, 10 feet above, I have two JBL reference speakers also Matrixed into the front B channels for height sound.
I have two massive surrounds (each with mids, tweets and 12'subs) of a non-name label which i bought from a neighbor for 40 bucks (steal) on the floor on both sides of the listening position. Directly above those I have two more SONY bookshelf speakers about ten feet up for height surround.
On the back wall about ten feet up I have another SONY center for Surround Back. MAtrixed into that speaker I have 2 KLHs for SBL and SBR. About 2 feet in front of those on the side walls I have two more SONY bookshelf speakers to round out True SBL and SBR.
On that back wall I have a pleather sofa(yes fake leather) that seats four about a foot off the ground for stadium seating which puts the viewer about 4.5 feet above the front sofa. On both sides of the sofa I have two bookshelf JBLs Matrixed into more Surround L and R.
IN between the seating is where I have a 1996 SONY sub which puts out as much power as the front subs but is only a 6 inch woofer.(I'm still impressed with it) Next to it I have my rack with the two receivers, my IN72 projector, and dvd upscaler ( Still saving up for bluray player-wife couldn't care less-Although I have auditioned a PS3 and WOW!)
On the other side of the rack I have an ONKYO 12' sub down firing.
ALL this in a 25 foot long room-20 feet wide.
Believe in what your ears tell you. And everyone else will. I've been to my friend's house who have spent 25,000 on their professionally installed Klipsch theater (And i love Klipsch!) and then had them come over to my theater and blow them out of the water without question. Most come over and shed a tear during viewing. The PQ is ok (as you all know the IN72 is 480p native) but the sound is celestial. I play Apollo 13 when the shuttle launches and My street knows it. My audience becomes overwhelmed with the emotion and turn to me with jaws dropped and a tear rolling down their cheeks. I've spent maybe 8 to ten thousand over six years building this overkill home theater. But the proof again is in your ears. Would I buy more expensive brands and maybe have them all be uniform? In a heartbeat. But we're not rich and neither are most readers here. We're here to EXPERIENCE the movies.
Just like MONSTER and BOSE rip people off so do most speaker companies. Once again the tech is still ANALOG. I love movies and actually am writing spec scripts for Hollywood. No luck yet, but when one sells, Im going to buy 28 Klipsch speakers and four 15' Klipsch woofers. And the IN83 or better. With Matrixing knowledge NO ONE should Stop at your BASIC 7.1 set up. You're cheating yourself out of a SONIC ORGASM.

p.s. I use to be apathetic to the MAC vs PC debate, but man. XP sucks compared to OS X. I do have pics and will post them when I find them in my comp files. I'm using a DELL and I miss my stolen Mac.

IN RESPONSE to those curious as to what equipment I use in my HT,
This may infuriate some and perplex others.
I'm especially aware of this since I've been following this site for at least three years and my fellow enthusiast's strong likes and dislikes for certain brands are IMO unsubstantial. I just recently decided to register at AVS to finally fuel my passion for HT and more specifically sound.
I have two 110 watt SONY 7.1 receivers($470 each in 2004 money). Ohh. Yes that's right SONY. I've tried the Comparable Onkyo's, Denon's, Harmon Kardons, and a few others. They're all actually great, but for my purposes the SONYs are for me untouchable.
For Center channels I'm using a SONY center. Directly above it A JBL center. 10 feet above it (I have a cathedral ceiling) Another Sony Center.
For Front channels I have two 1996 SONY towers on the left and right. (As the educated know, speaker tech hasn't dramatically changed under the $5,000 dollar range since their inception.) 6 Feet above those towers I have two bookshelf SONYs Matrixed into the Front B channels (For height superiority). Next to those SONY towers I have (what most around the net without foundation refer to as sleezy VAN speakers-whatever-the proof is in the sound) 2 AUDIOLINE towers. In between the SONYs and AUDIOLINES I have two no brand towers with mids tweeters and 12' subs Matrixed into the Front Channels.
In between the six towers I have one 12' sub KLH. And one 12' sub JBL, both down firing.
On that front wall in between the centers I have a 106 inch 2.5 gain DaLite screen.
Three feet in front of that screen and on the side walls, 10 feet above, I have two JBL reference speakers also Matrixed into the front B channels for height sound.
I have two massive surrounds (each with mids, tweets and 12'subs) of a non-name label which i bought from a neighbor for 40 bucks (steal) on the floor on both sides of the listening position. Directly above those I have two more SONY bookshelf speakers about ten feet up for height surround.
On the back wall about ten feet up I have another SONY center for Surround Back. MAtrixed into that speaker I have 2 KLHs for SBL and SBR. About 2 feet in front of those on the side walls I have two more SONY bookshelf speakers to round out True SBL and SBR.
On that back wall I have a pleather sofa(yes fake leather) that seats four about a foot off the ground for stadium seating which puts the viewer about 4.5 feet above the front sofa. On both sides of the sofa I have two bookshelf JBLs Matrixed into more Surround L and R.
IN between the seating is where I have a 1996 SONY sub which puts out as much power as the front subs but is only a 6 inch woofer.(I'm still impressed with it) Next to it I have my rack with the two receivers, my IN72 projector, and dvd upscaler ( Still saving up for bluray player-wife couldn't care less-Although I have auditioned a PS3 and WOW!)
On the other side of the rack I have an ONKYO 12' sub down firing.
ALL this in a 25 foot long room-20 feet wide.
Believe in what your ears tell you. And everyone else will. I've been to my friend's house who have spent 25,000 on their professionally installed Klipsch theater (And i love Klipsch!) and then had them come over to my theater and blow them out of the water without question. Most come over and shed a tear during viewing. The PQ is ok (as you all know the IN72 is 480p native) but the sound is celestial. I play Apollo 13 when the shuttle launches and My street knows it. My audience becomes overwhelmed with the emotion and turn to me with jaws dropped and a tear rolling down their cheeks. I've spent maybe 8 to ten thousand over six years building this overkill home theater. But the proof again is in your ears. Would I buy more expensive brands and maybe have them all be uniform? In a heartbeat. But we're not rich and neither are most readers here. We're here to EXPERIENCE the movies.
Just like MONSTER and BOSE rip people off so do most speaker companies. Once again the tech is still ANALOG. I love movies and actually am writing spec scripts for Hollywood. No luck yet, but when one sells, Im going to buy 28 Klipsch speakers and four 15' Klipsch woofers. And the IN83 or better. With Matrixing knowledge NO ONE should Stop at your BASIC 7.1 set up. You're cheating yourself out of a SONIC ORGASM.

p.s. I use to be apathetic to the MAC vs PC debate, but man. XP sucks compared to OS X. I do have pics and will post them when I find them in my comp files. I'm using a DELL and I miss my stolen Mac.[/quote]


sounds like a Gouldmund media room. most will not be able to understand without pictures.

Joe, that cubby hole screams to be built out with an acoustic screen in front of it!

Can you explain how you are "matrixing" channels in your system? From your description, it sounds like you are just duplicating channels -- feeding the same signal to a pair of 7.1 channel AVRs driving an array of hodgepodge speakers.

AJ

Joe, I brought up the height of your mains in post number three. I did not mean that as an insult of your system. I just meant it as an explanation as to why you noticed more of an improvement than others that have tried height speakers. Every room has compromises. if one does not have an AT screen then your speakers can not be located correctly. I have the same problem. My center is under my screen so it is too low. Rather than locate my mains to match my center I chose to mount my mains so that the tweeter is at ear level.

You have a nice room and good equipment. As a poster above said, I would go with a screen wall built flush with the front of the alcove and install an AT screen. Your room is perfect for that type of set up. I wish that I could do that. I would also install pro style speakers and place a couple of subs behind the screen. I do not know what you are using for subs, but I would check out the DIY section for subs. Many of the designs way surpass anything that you can get commercially. I appreciate all of the equipment that you buy, test and report about here at AVS.

I wondered the same thing.

Perhaps that poster is under the impression that infinite speakers given infinite AVRs will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare...



AJ

Are you related to JBLSound4645?

Here's his theater:










You... sound like his brother!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=796992&page=2
Edit: This post is titled "Thunderous Overhead Surround! "World Trade Center" (just in cast anyone thought Dolby developed height speakers FIRST!)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=799369

Craig

JAWS... in 52.1, FTW!!!

Craig,

You are bad, Man!

Jigsta, are you using pro gear to matrix channels, or simply wiring out of phase?

Strangely enough, I have seen quite a bit of what Jigsta is doing, employed in some home theaters. Just not everything in a single room.

It's the phase and the timing issues that really have my head reeling.

Has anyone heard anything about there being outboard decoders for the new PLIIz format as well as what DTS is cooking up. Years gone back, I had purchased a Millenuim DTS decoder which was great. I was hoping that maybe something similar would come on to the market.

This all sounds interesting so can i ask a few questions .

If you buy into this new system i was just wondering what happens when you play a 7.1 track from a Blu Ray ?

I mean for most people the choice will be having 3 front speakers and 2 side and 2 rear speakers and of course the Amps are 7.1 so thats all you can achieve so what actually happens if you decide to go with 2 front height speakers instead of 2 side or rear speakers. Do you lose anything when playing back a 7.1 movie soundtrack or does the sound get shifted to the front height speakers and how would that work anyway ?

I would presume a special 7.1 track has been made to take advantage of side and rear surround speakers when played back on a 7.1 speaker setup and not to take advantage of front height so how does all that work if you choose front height and basically forego 2 of your surround speakers either side or surround back speakers ?

Bear in mind i know that 9.1 might be around the corner which would bypass this scenario but what happens for people who have just one option and thats surround back or side speakers or front height speakers and they choose the front height speakers.....Is there going to be a loss when using a 7.1 encoded Blu Ray ?

It would be great if Joe could test a 7.1 disc such as Rambo or the recent release of My Bloody Valentine or Prince Caspian or one of the other 7.1 encoded discs and report back his findings.

The 4 surround channels are played back over 2 speakers (no info discarded), the height speakers get decorrelated (out of phase) info from the surround channels, the 3 front channels are left unprocessed (just like with PLIIx).

The [extant] problem would seem to be that the "as spec'd by Dolby" process described here, i.e., a [DPLIIz] 'pivot' from 7.1 Standard speaker config to 7.1 Front Height speaker config requires that the BD first be decoded as 7.1 ["Standard"].

Quote:

From "Dolby Pro Logic IIz Configurations":

"Because new formats (such as Blu-ray Disc) allow content to contain up to 7.1 discrete channels from Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD audio programs, the height extensions support

7.1 Back sources and offer the following upmixed output configurations:

* 7.1 Back to 7.1 Height [Ls, Rs, Lrs, and Rrs to Ls, Rs, Lvh, and Rvh]
* 7.1 Back to 9.1 . . ."

But, without a 7.1 Standard speaker config EDID from the receiver, any external decoder will deliver [just] the 5.1 [Standard] 'downmix' from the 7.1 DTS BD. This latter scenario seems to match initial reports of 'comparable' processing by the Onkyo 607's onboard [DTS] decoder [any confirmations available here?] Consequently, it seems that what we are currently getting from 7.1 DTS BDs is: a 5.1 [Standard] speaker config [DTS] 'downmix' followed by a DPLIIz 'upmix' to 7.1 Front Height speaker config. Not quite what we hoped for from the DPLIIz process, based on what was 'advertised' by Dolby!

I'm guessing that we might have to wait for the next generation of DPLIIz decoders - designed to support both 7.1 and 9.1 environments - to see real 7.1 Standard to 7.1 Front Height DPLIIz 'pivot' processing! [Including, specifically, some smarter onboard EDID generation from DPLIIz equipped receivers!]

--------------------
Disquieting follow on thought: If you are going to decode a 7.1 DTS BD using a "full" offboard decoder [i.e., (SMPTE coefficient based) speaker remapping capable, and NO DPLIIz post processing required!], the receiver should ideally send the player the real 7.1 Front Height speaker config EDID. Conversely, in the [less-than-"full" DTS decoder, or other CODEC] situation, above, you would want to send the player a fake 7.1 Standard speaker config EDID (which is probably "prohibited"!) and then post-process with DPLIIz. This is starting to sound like a situation in which only a receiver based decode can make the right processing decisions! [Sorry! Over long, and complicated sentence evolution!]

--------------------
Post Scriptum: With a little luck(!) we'll see the first 9.1 DPLIIz receivers, and the first 9.1 (maybe 11.1) DTS Advanced Neo receivers at CEDIA 2009. Once there are multiple complexities and competing feature sets in this arena, maybe we'll get some serious analysis from the consumer home theater magazines.

Does anyone think that any of the in-ceiling speakers placed approximately 4 ft forward of the viewing seat would work better or little if any and not worth the hassle for the height channels?