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Blu Ray Player Synthetic and Real World Tests Comparisons - Page 8

post #211 of 856
10/12/09 at 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

whoa...you are a bit all over the place on this purchase. A $500 Oppo or even $420 Denon 2010 is a very different purchase than a $106 Pioneer on clearance.

Without any knowledge of your setup or preferences, I think a Pioneer for $106 would be hard to beat - do not think you will gain quality worth $315 or $400 respectively.

Except that the 51 is used and the both the Oppo and Denon are new factory sealed with warranties. (This 51 is now up to $162.50 with 5+ hours to go also)
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post #212 of 856
10/12/09 at 1:03pm
I'd go as high as 185 for the 51fd used, higher if new. The warranty doesn't concern me. All the issues I've had with electronics always happened when the warranty expired.
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post #213 of 856
10/12/09 at 1:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post

Except that the 51 is used and the both the Oppo and Denon are new factory sealed with warranties. (This 51 is now up to $162.50 with 5+ hours to go also)

misunderstood - thought the pioneer was new - some sort of open box/bestbuy discount.
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post #214 of 856
10/13/09 at 6:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan777 View Post

I'd go as high as 185 for the 51fd used, higher if new. The warranty doesn't concern me. All the issues I've had with electronics always happened when the warranty expired.

Are you the winner of the auction @ $185?
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post #215 of 856
10/13/09 at 6:45am
Sadly no. I missed the bid by $5 because I was away from my computer!!! Darn.

Oh well. Now my choices are the Pioneer 320 or the Oppo. My main concern is upconversion. I know the Oppo is "better" but by how much? I watch alot of foreign and classic films and I was fairly satisfied with my Bh200, though my ol' XA2 was better. Man, I wish I kept that player....
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post #216 of 856
10/13/09 at 6:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan777 View Post

Sadly no. I missed the bid by $5 because I was away from my computer!!! Darn.

Oh well. Now my choices are the Pioneer 320 or the Oppo. My main concern is upconversion. I know the Oppo is "better" but by how much? I watch alot of foreign and classic films and I was fairly satisfied with my Bh200, though my ol' XA2 was better. Man, I wish I kept that player....

depends on the size of your set and what you're watching. in my opinion, the differences are reasonably small on a set less than 50". The Pioneer has about as many tweaking settings as the Oppo. The 320 is nearly half the price of the Oppo, so one must ask if better upscaling, SACD, DVD-A, and speed are worth the $250 premium. The latest firmware did speed up the Pioneer 320 and it is a lot quicker in basic power up sequences and eject times. Load times are reasonable, but not outright fast compared to the likes of the Oppo, JVC, LG and Samsungs out there.
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post #217 of 856
10/13/09 at 7:09am
I have a 52 inch LCD and the viewing distance is 9 feet (small room).

I have 4 kef IQ1s, a Kef IQ2c center and subwoofer paired with a RX-V663 receiver.

It's hard for me to spend 200 more but if it is a good build and a noticeably better upconverter....
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post #218 of 856
10/13/09 at 10:56am
So on a whim, I stopped by Best Buy and lo, they had the 51fd selling as an open item. The guy gave it to me for $109!!!! I couldn't pass it up for that. I purchased an extended warranty two so I'm set.

Thanks Winston for doing all that testing to help people like us figure out what the heck we want!

So far it's great, I'm just trying to figure out why it's only running two channel stereo through hdmi....
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post #219 of 856
10/13/09 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

After picking up the LG BD390 on sale over the weekend and giving it another go, I wanted to compare the video quality of streamed netflix amongst the four players i have (or was able to temporarily reclaim from my inlaws). The Roku is not a BD Player, but is a common consideration for those looking to add Netflix-streaming to their setup.

All four players were connected directly to my Pioneer Kuro and hooked up via ethernet cable to avoid wireless transmission effecting quality.

Here are my rankings:

Video Overall HD Content SD Content
LG BD390 8 9 7
Roku 7 8 6
Samsung BDP2550 9 9.5 9
Samsung BDP3600 8 9 7

I used the BBC series Wire in the Blood for a fair share of the SD DVD testing. It was originally encoded to PAL, has a 4:3 aspect ratio, and is not the best transfer. Jaggies were prolific on the Roku, but less frequent on the 390 and 3600. The 2550 cleaned up the image and avoided jaggies in all but a few cases.

HD (720p) movies were much better; similar to medium quality ota hd broadcasts. The Roku had a slightly washed image on HD, the 390 and 3600 offering more color saturation and slightly darker black levels. The 2500 offered better edge enhancement and provided the cleanest picture of the four.

Samsung really dropped the ball in dropping the Reon chip in the 3600 and it was very much appearent in these tests.

As for connection reliability and lipsynch performance, the Roku was the most reliable. The Samsung 2500 had a few connection hiccups and I noticed that the LG 390 had periodic audio lags on a few movies, usually resolved by a quick pause.

Winston,

The above correlates with my findings when I compared the Roku, TivoHD, P2550, and WMC Plugin for NetFlix playback. I didn't see the washed-out colors as much, however this could be masked somewhat by LCD based FP compared to your Kuro. I whole-heartedly agree that Samsung FUBARed when they dropped the Reon processing and the P2550 still remains my favorite all-around value player of all time, even with the Oppo now in my rack for the time being. If I watched more NetFlix or their HD library were more extensive, I'd likely move back to the P2550 from the Oppo... I'm currently using the TivoHD for NetFlix seeing how little I watch it.
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post #220 of 856
10/13/09 at 12:51pm
I figured out the settings and absolutely love the 51fd. I would have easily payed much more for this product. The dvd upconversion was noticeably better, which surprised me actually.
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post #221 of 856
10/14/09 at 8:49am
Winston, just wanted to offer my thanks for your hard work. Great thread and I come back repeatedly to catch up on new additions. You've added a lot of value for other members. Thanks.

Mods: Why isn't this thread a sticky?
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post #222 of 856
10/15/09 at 7:01pm
i concur =). this thread is like a dream most of us A/V enthusiasts have: if we had enough $ to buy all the BD players on the market... oh wait Winston did it!!!! lol =).

great thread, didn't have time to read it all, but i was wondering how calculations of test of the timing are made? from insert disc time to the piracy screen? i'm interested cause i have a lot of BDROM players i can run the test myself on the PC =P
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post #223 of 856
10/17/09 at 9:10am
Winston, I am having a issue deciding on a stand alone Blue -Ray player that upconverts very good, Blue-Ray excellent, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio decoding and Netflix etc but not necessary. I have a new Panasonic 54G10 Plasma and a new Denon 1910 receiver. All hook-ups HDMI. I sit 9 feet away.
I am going nuts with all the selections. I like the Samsung 3600 but it seems buggier than hell. I really do not want to mess with it. The Panny DB80 and some Pioneer and Denon offering are appealing also. I do not want to spend more than $300.00.

Thanks for your time
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post #224 of 856
10/17/09 at 9:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by msarp View Post

Winston, I am having a issue deciding on a stand alone Blue -Ray player that upconverts very good, Blue-Ray excellent, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio decoding and Netflix etc but not necessary. I have a new Panasonic 54G10 Plasma and a new Denon 1910 receiver. All hook-ups HDMI. I sit 9 feet away.
I am going nuts with all the selections. I like the Samsung 3600 but it seems buggier than hell. I really do not want to mess with it. The Panny DB80 and some Pioneer and Denon offering are appealing also. I do not want to spend more than $300.00.

Thanks for your time

You might be entitled to a free BD60 if you just bought your set. Check with Panasonic.
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post #225 of 856
10/17/09 at 9:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrinklefree View Post

You might be entitled to a free BD60 if you just bought your set. Check with Panasonic.


Yeah I have that down in the living room with a Panasonic 42px80u

I want one form my HT Room. The bd60 is OK but not quite what I want.
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post #226 of 856
10/17/09 at 10:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by msarp View Post

Yeah I have that down in the living room with a Panasonic 42px80u

I want one form my HT Room. The bd60 is OK but not quite what I want.

You only mentioned quality upscaling and Netflix as features you wanted under $300. The rest are standard features on all BD players.

If you don't like your BD60, then skip the 80.

I sense a Pioneer BDP-320 or LG BD390 (Netflix) in your near future.
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post #227 of 856
10/17/09 at 10:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrinklefree View Post

You only mentioned quality upscaling and Netflix as features you wanted under $300. The rest are standard features on all BD players.

If you don't like your BD60, then skip the 80.

I sense a Pioneer BDP-320 or LG BD390 (Netflix) in your near future.

The Pioneer and LG are both decent units. Any Denons you think are better?
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post #228 of 856
10/17/09 at 10:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan777 View Post

I have a 52 inch LCD and the viewing distance is 9 feet (small room).

I have 4 kef IQ1s, a Kef IQ2c center and subwoofer paired with a RX-V663 receiver.

It's hard for me to spend 200 more but if it is a good build and a noticeably better upconverter....

Screen viewing distance matters. For your size of screen try sitting at 7 feet away instead of 9 feet away.

There is a viewing recommended seating distance for both 720p content and 1080p content if you click the link in my signature. The further you sit away the more detail you will miss out on and you can in fact end up with your eyes resolving only 720p of detail which makes upgrading your player worthless in my opinion. Indeed the same principles apply to viewing movies at your local cinema and there is an optimum seating position per screen size.
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post #229 of 856
10/17/09 at 11:30pm
OK, I've read Thur all the pages and I think I know what too do but maybe need a push in the right direction. I'll be using this player with an AVR that does not have HDMI Yamaha 5960, but i plan to upgrade the AVR next summer so I need analog outs. Up conversation is not an issue, I may want to use the netflix option but not sure, so that is not a deal breaker either way. I'm leaning to wards the Oppo due to its analog outs and strong test results, the price and features of these other players are what is causing me headaches [LG 390 or BDP-390/320 the Pioneer BDP-51FD is just too slow] I know i could pay less money but I don't want to buy something for right now, I want now and later [its the cake and eat it too thing], but it the extra $200 [Oppo] going to really make a huge difference The Synthetic Test Results along with the DVD rating [LG 390] is keeping me from selecting one of those other players vs the Oppo.
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post #230 of 856
10/18/09 at 4:17am
winston, is the PS3 able to deinterlace 1080i-encoded Blu-ray discs yet? I know as of last year it could not. If it still can't, that should probably knock down its feature/performance score as every other BD player can do it (and some TVs dont do a great job of it). Just as important as DVD performance IMO.
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post #231 of 856
10/18/09 at 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

After reading numerous posts regarding the Picture Quality of various blu ray players, I thought I would begin a master repository of objective and subjective information regarding blu ray performance using synthetic tests and my subjective opinion of their real-world performance of SD Upscaling. It's my opinion that most players put out very similar images with native resolutions of 1080p and 24fps cadence; the biggest variability centers around dvd upscaling.

All tests were performed directly connected to a Pioneer PDP-5010FD 1080P plasma via a monoprice HDMI V1.3a CL2 Cable. I am using the S&M Test disc for synthetic tests and various SD DVDs (season 1 of tudors, BSG Season 4.0, Last of the Mohicans).

The players I have tested are as follows:
Pioneer BDP-320
Pioneer BDP-120 (no longer own)
Pioneer BDP-51FD
JVC XV-BP1
Oppo BDP83
LG BD390
Onkyo DV BD606
Panasonic DMP BD55K (no longer own)
Samsung BD P2550 (test results will be posted later)
LG BH200
Denon DVD-1800BD
LG BD370 (no longer own)
Denon DVD 2500BTC
Harman Kardon BDP-1 (no longer own)
Sherwood BDP 5003
Samsung BDP3600
Denon DBP2010CI
Denon BDP1610
Onkyo DV BD507 (no longer own)
PS3 Slim
Marantz BD5004
Marantz BD7004

All firmware was updated and was most recent as of 9/12/09.

Unweighted, Subjective Scoring. Legend for Audio and Feature Scores below:

Player Price Speed Build Quality DVD Audio Feature Style Value Overall
Oppo BDP83 $500 10 9 10 9 7 8 10 9
Pioneer BDP-51FD $200 5 10 9 10 5 9 10 8.29
Denon DBP2010CI $500 7 8 9.5 10 7 9 7.5 8.29
Marantz BD7004 $600 7 8 9.5 10 7 9.5 7 8.28
PS3 Slim $300 8 8 7 5.5 10 9 10 8.21
Pioneer BDP-320 $300 7 8 9 9 7 8 9 8.14
LG BD390 $300 10 7 7 7.5 10 7 8 8.07
Samsung BDP 3600 $300 10 6 7 7.5 10 7 8 7.93
Samsung BD P2550 NA 7 6 9 7.5 9 6 9 7.64
JVC XV-BP1 $200 10 6 8 6 7 6 9 7.43
Marantz 5004 $500 7 8 7 7 7 9.5 6 7.36
Denon DVD 2500BTC $300 6 10 7 5 5 9 9 7.29
Denon BDP1610 $400 7 8 7 7 7 9 6 7.29
LG BD370 $200 10 5 6 6 9 6 7 7
LG BH200 NA 6 7 9 5 5 7 9 6.86
Panasonic DMP BD55K NA 6 6 7 7.5 7 6 8 6.79
Harman Kardon BDP-1 $400 6 7 7 6 7 9 5 6.71
Onkyo DV BD507 $400 7 6 7 6 7 8 5 6.57
Onkyo DV BD606 $300 6 7 7 5 5 8 5 6.14
Denon DVD-1800BD $300 6 7 7 5 5 8 5 6.14
Pioneer BDP-120 $200 7 5 5 6 7 7 5 6
Sherwood BDP 5003 $125 6 5 5 5 5 7 5 5.43





Question, how did you come up with these Audio ratings?

Thanks
Feature: 5 Profile 1.1; 7 Profile 2.0; 9 Streaming; 10 wireless streaming
Audio: 5 bitstream only; 5.5 pcm/bs no analog;6 pcm/bs; 7.5 pcm/bs w 7.1; 8 or 9 high quality 7.1 audio

NETFLIX STREAMING COMPARISON: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post17321983
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post #232 of 856
10/18/09 at 3:59pm
Thank you so much for compiling all this information!!! It would appear to me as a complete noob that the Pioneer BDP-51FD would be the best option besides the Oppo for straight player and if you wanted Netflix to go with the LG BD390, does that sound correct?

I do not have an AVR or surround system yet. I currently have a 50" Hitachi and do subscribe to Netflix. I think Blu-Ray first, then get my AVR & speakers. I do have alot of DVD's I'd continue to watch although I could use my existing player.

Thanks again!
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post #233 of 856
10/18/09 at 5:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishluck73 View Post

Thank you so much for compiling all this information!!! It would appear to me as a complete noob that the Pioneer BDP-51FD would be the best option besides the Oppo for straight player and if you wanted Netflix to go with the LG BD390, does that sound correct?

I do not have an AVR or surround system yet. I currently have a 50" Hitachi and do subscribe to Netflix. I think Blu-Ray first, then get my AVR & speakers. I do have alot of DVD's I'd continue to watch although I could use my existing player.

Thanks again!

I was thinking that way too but i've read that the 51FD is very slow and the 390 is similar [in speed] to the top units, this slow responce time has been reported to be enough to drive some owners a bit batty.
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post #234 of 856
10/18/09 at 5:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plex View Post

I was thinking that way too but i've read that the 51FD is very slow and the 390 is similar [in speed] to the top units, this slow responce time has been reported to be enough to drive some owners a bit batty.

Maybe the LG is the best bet then... I've read that the Netflix HD is about the same quality as DVD and that's plenty good for me for the convienence factor. I would like to have good viewing of standard DVD's as well.

Sorry if I'm not using all the correct terminology... a whole new world for me!
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post #235 of 856
10/18/09 at 7:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

After picking up the LG BD390 on sale over the weekend and giving it another go, I wanted to compare the video quality of streamed netflix amongst the four players i have (or was able to temporarily reclaim from my inlaws). The Roku is not a BD Player, but is a common consideration for those looking to add Netflix-streaming to their setup.

All four players were connected directly to my Pioneer Kuro and hooked up via ethernet cable to avoid wireless transmission effecting quality.

Here are my rankings:

Video Overall HD Content SD Content
LG BD390 8 9 7
Roku 7 8 6
Samsung BDP2550 9 9.5 9
Samsung BDP3600 8 9 7

I used the BBC series Wire in the Blood for a fair share of the SD DVD testing. It was originally encoded to PAL, has a 4:3 aspect ratio, and is not the best transfer. Jaggies were prolific on the Roku, but less frequent on the 390 and 3600. The 2550 cleaned up the image and avoided jaggies in all but a few cases.

HD (720p) movies were much better; similar to medium quality ota hd broadcasts. The Roku had a slightly washed image on HD, the 390 and 3600 offering more color saturation and slightly darker black levels. The 2500 offered better edge enhancement and provided the cleanest picture of the four.

Samsung really dropped the ball in dropping the Reon chip in the 3600 and it was very much appearent in these tests.

As for connection reliability and lipsynch performance, the Roku was the most reliable. The Samsung 2500 had a few connection hiccups and I noticed that the LG 390 had periodic audio lags on a few movies, usually resolved by a quick pause.

winston,

Based on your review, I bought a used Samsung BDP-2550, mainly fro Netflix streaming, as I have the Pioneer 51 for blu ray that I am happy with. The Sammy has firmware 2.4. Should I upgrade to the newest firmware? Is the latest firmware stable?
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post #236 of 856
10/18/09 at 8:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex solomon View Post

winston,

Based on your review, I bought a used Samsung BDP-2550, mainly fro Netflix streaming, as I have the Pioneer 51 for blu ray that I am happy with. The Sammy has firmware 2.4. Should I upgrade to the newest firmware? Is the latest firmware stable?

If you're largely using it for netflix, i would not worry about updating from 2.4 to 2.5.
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post #237 of 856
10/19/09 at 6:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by B&W700guy View Post

Question, how did you come up with these Audio ratings?

Thanks

B&W700guy,

I think the audio ratings and some of the other comparisons within the grid are his subjective opinions. I believe his posting is scrictly for informational purposes and is a good starting point for some who are buying their 1st or 2nd player. You or I may rate things differently, but again that would be our subjective opinion.


Respectfully,
Willie
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post #238 of 856
10/19/09 at 6:17am
Quote:
Audio: 5 bitstream only; 5.5 pcm/bs no analog;6 pcm/bs; 7.5 pcm/bs w 7.1; 8 or 9 high quality 7.1 audio

The audio ratings are based on what bitstream, decoding, and analog capabilities are present, as well as a "bonus" for analog quality. The "bonus" looks to be mainly related to what's known about the DACs used, but may possibly include some weighting around bass management features?
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post #239 of 856
10/19/09 at 6:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

winston, is the PS3 able to deinterlace 1080i-encoded Blu-ray discs yet? I know as of last year it could not. If it still can't, that should probably knock down its feature/performance score as every other BD player can do it (and some TVs dont do a great job of it). Just as important as DVD performance IMO.

I haven't tried it recently but my understanding is that nothing has changed. On the other hand, this is also a positive for those feeding the PS3 into a capable AVR (i.e. Denon with ABT2010 or Onkyo with REON), think of it as a source direct mode. If only the PS3 could output 480i over HDMI it would be the perfect partner for an AVR with good video processing.
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post #240 of 856
10/19/09 at 6:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hopkins View Post

The audio ratings are based on what bitstream, decoding, and analog capabilities are present, as well as a "bonus" for analog quality. The "bonus" looks to be mainly related to what's known about the DACs used, but may possibly include some weighting around bass management features?

and pure listening quality (ie simply what sounds good over both 2 and 8 ch audio)
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