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Blu Ray Player Synthetic and Real World Tests Comparisons - Page 13

post #361 of 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hopkins View Post

Not posting helpful information because someone might make an incomplete decision based on that info may be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

You saying Not posting helpful information is smart?

But, we are moving forward. You seem to think that the bass management info would be helpfull
post #362 of 856
let it go is right: or leave the thread please

posts deleted
post #363 of 856
Hi winston9332 ,

How you can compare video and audio quality for :

LG BD390 vs. Pioneer BDP-320

And If I will connect bluray to TV via HDMI will this be effect to audio quality ?

Thanks.
post #364 of 856
I sold my Oppo 83 because I was not a fan of the "Oppo" sound in 2 channel. I now have a Marantz 8002 that I use as a BD transport to feed my McIntosh MCD 500. I know the combo is alot more expensive, but for me it is worth it. I am very impressed with the pq of the Marantz on my Fujitsu 50" plasma, and prefer it over the Oppo 83.
post #365 of 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talk2Me View Post

I sold my Oppo 83 because I was not a fan of the "Oppo" sound in 2 channel. I now have a Marantz 8002 that I use as a BD transport to feed my McIntosh MCD 500. I know the combo is alot more expensive, but for me it is worth it. I am very impressed with the pq of the Marantz on my Fujitsu 50" plasma, and prefer it over the Oppo 83.

In the 8002 owner's thread, you state that you are connecting the Marantz player using coaxial to the MCD 500. Wouldn't going coaxial from the Oppo produce the same audio quality since you are dependent on the MCD 500 for the digital to analog conversion?

Unless, I'm mistaken your Fujitsu is most likely not 1080p (some variant of 768p or 1080i tops). My experience has shown that the Oppo outputs 720p much better than the Marantz 8002 (which is a Denon 3800 clone).
post #366 of 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

In the 8002 owner's thread, you state that you are connecting the Marantz player using coaxial to the MCD 500. Wouldn't going coaxial from the Oppo produce the same audio quality since you are dependent on the MCD 500 for the digital to analog conversion?

Unless, I'm mistaken your Fujitsu is most likely not 1080p (some variant of 768p or 1080i tops). My experience has shown that the Oppo outputs 720p much better than the Marantz 8002 (which is a Denon 3800 clone).

So you have a Denon3800 with a HD plasma..
post #367 of 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by IIDexII View Post

So you have a Denon3800 with a HD plasma..

Yes. I bought my Oppo over a year after I already owned the 3800. If you follow my posts in the 3800 thread, I was never happy with the 720p output in the Realta as implemented in the 3800. If Talk2Me stll owns the Spears and Munsil disc or DVE: HD Basics, he can run the tests at 720p. In my mind, he's gone backwards in video. I hope he can prove me wrong as no one in the 8002 thread was up to task.

For non-legacy video equipment (ie. 1080p native display), I'm sure the 3800/8002 players are fine.
post #368 of 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

Yes. I bought my Oppo over a year after I already owned the 3800. If you follow my posts in the 3800 thread, I was never happy with the 720p output in the Realta as implemented in the 3800. If Talk2Me stll owns the Spears and Munsil disc or DVE: HD Basics, he can run the tests at 720p. In my mind, he's gone backwards in video. I hope he can prove me wrong as no one in the 8002 thread was up to task.

For non-legacy video equipment (ie. 1080p native display), I'm sure the 3800/8002 players are fine.

Bluray Transport... doesnt that mean that he runs without upscaling??

576i?

Surely the sound in 2Channels are better with the 3800?
post #369 of 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

In the interest of comparing the 1000 against an established performer (Oppo) and a very popular player (LG), I thought I would provide some anecdotal commentary of their respective performance for SD DVDs. LG and Sony appear to use their own chipset while Oppo uses the ABT 2010. In regard to film cadence recognition, the ABT is one of the best and quickest. I noticed a rather unusual occurrence with the Sony. Unlike other second set lock-on recognition, the Sony seemed to require a few seconds to lock on in each set. This surprised me as it was relatively new to me in the repeating sequence. The Oppo requires lock on in the second sequence for 2:2 cadences, but once it locks on, it repeats without moiré. The Sony appears to repeat its recognition error on each set in a number of cadences.

The Sony must have some very active edge enhancement that threw off its performance on vertical scrolling text. There was readily apparent shakiness or hesitation in movement as the text moved up the screen. This was different from the video deinterlacing I saw in some lower performing players. This text hesitation was also visible in some DVD's opening credits on film.
For real world material, all three players do not differ that frequently to be perfectly candid. Only seldom does an interlacing appear. The Oppo offers realistic edge enhancement and fluidity in motion. The sony's edge enhancement is aggressive and does bring a more definitive contrast between images. That said, its enhancement does appear to come at the cost of fluidity and motion. This is probably a subjective area - some folks might like the pop it brings and might play better on the high hertz lcds that sony makes.

In the second chapter of killshot (with opening credits), I did see a minor jaggie in the bumper of the blue Cadillac with the LG and the Sony. This was not present in the Oppo (and the Marantz 7004). Edge enhancement was the strongest with the Sony in most scenes; this might be desirable for those looking for a very poppy image with a smoothening engine on an lcd. For me, I found it a bit unnatural on my plasma. Some details were enhanced at the cost of others ie the distinct lines of people against the scenery over-powered the details of their faces, predominantly in medium zoomed perspectives.

Sony PQ adjustments:
The overlaid display menu allows for +/-3 settings for the HD enhancer. It appears to have an impact on contrst and edge enhancement. I pasued a dark scene and noticed that the contrast between dark and light images was amplified with each increasing setting. The image revealed by the HD enhancer is brings out more detail as well and I think more HDish for most viewers. That said, it brings out a lot of jaggies. Back to kill shot for specific references...in the third scene after the screen door moire, Mickey Rourke walks in a house with vertical paneling. To his right (screen left), you can see very noticeable jaggies on the vertical lines with +3. At the zero setting, thereis no moire. To an untrained eye, the +3 yeilds a better image. It bothers me with the amount of jaggies it creates.

There is also a smoothening feature - I was unable to see that big of a difference, but did detect slight tearing on fast motion with it dialed off the zero default position.

Another note:
The Sony had trouble with three of my burned DVD+Rs. Both the LG and the Oppo played them without issue. I tried some of the non-playing discs on my Marantz and Onkyo HD DVD player and both played them without issue. I am not trying to indict the Sony for poor error recognition of burned media, but I do want to pt this out.

Summary:
The Blu Ray Player landscape has become increasingly competitive in the past year as players have gotten cheaper, faster, more complete and added new features like Netflix streaming or wireless connectivity. The Oppo's emergence of a very strong purist player effectively crumpled the ceiling for mid-range players in my opinion.

Sony's upper mid-ranged BDP-S1000ES is a very capable player offering quality DVD and BD images with the convenience of wireless connectivity. That said, I struggle to see the value proposition of this player priced at $700 to an educated consumer. It is quick, but not fast. It offers some neat features, but lacks what I consider the most meaningful non disc playback (ie Netflix). Its touted image enhancement features tend to render a synthetic image whose contrast and pop is delivered at the cost of relatively common jaggies. While some might prefer this image (especially on the smoothening engines of soem LCDs). I struggle to describe the overall image with its enhancing engines without using the word artificial or synthetic.

My biggest criticism is not with the player but with its price. At $700, this player is grossly over-priced in my opinion (this is reflected in my 6.5 value rating). The LG BD390 offers very similar dvd performance and more features at half the price. For those looking for simply quality DVD and BD playback, the Pioneer 320 is its equal in most ways at nearly a third of its price. Sony missed an opportunity to introduce a class-leading player by introducing this player as is at $300 or $400 with netflix and other video-streaming features. Simply put, there are so many better options at this price point - like an oppo and a roku or a lg 390 and a pioneer 320 - both combined at lower the cost than this player!

winston9332,

So you're not going to give it the 5 Star rating that What HiFi gave the European version Sony BDP-S760, which by the was just named What HiFi's Blu-ray player of the Year. (lol)

This just in from What HiFi:

Using today's exchange rate ($1.6439) taken from Yahoo! Finance the US$ equivalents are in brackets.
  • Best Blu-ray player £300-£600 ($493.00 - $986.00): Sony BDP-S760
  • Best Blu-ray player up to £300 (up to $493.00): Sony BDP-S360
  • Best Blu-ray player £600+ ($986.00+): Sony BDP-S5000ES

It is very interesting that all 3 players are Sony's.

By the way nice job.


Respectfully,
Willie
post #370 of 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by IIDexII View Post

Bluray Transport... doesnt that mean that he runs without upscaling??

generally when one uses the term "transport" it is referring to a device which serves purely as a source for the "raw" digital data, and all processing / decoding / DAC functions are performed elsewhere (typically in an AVR).

so saying he uses it as a "Blu-ray Transport" would imply that:

1 - all video content is delivered at "Source Direct" resolution with no processing by the player, i.e. BD's delivered at 1080p/24 and DVD's delivered at 480i.

2 - all audio content is bitstreamed to the processor for decoding

in other words, the "transport" is simply playing the disc and performing absolutely NO audio/video processing beyond reading the digital data off the disc and delivering it to an external processor (e.g an AVR).
post #371 of 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

winston9332,

So you're not going to give it the 5 Star rating that What HiFi gave the European version Sony BDP-S760, which by the was just named What HiFi’s Blu-ray player of the Year. (lol)

This just in from What HiFi:

Using today’s exchange rate ($1.6439) taken from Yahoo! Finance the US$ equivalents are in brackets.
  • Best Blu-ray player £300-£600 ($493.00 - $986.00): Sony BDP-S760
  • Best Blu-ray player up to £300 (up to $493.00): Sony BDP-S360
  • Best Blu-ray player £600+ ($986.00+): Sony BDP-S5000ES

It is very interesting that all 3 players are Sony’s.

By the way nice job.


Respectfully,
Willie


How much advertising is Sony doing with What Hi-Fi? I think you'll find your answer.
post #372 of 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by IIDexII View Post

Bluray Transport... doesnt that mean that he runs without upscaling??

576i?

Surely the sound in 2Channels are better with the 3800?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

In the 8002 owner's thread, you state that you are connecting the Marantz player using coaxial to the MCD 500. Wouldn't going coaxial from the Oppo produce the same audio quality since you are dependent on the MCD 500 for the digital to analog conversion?

Unless, I'm mistaken your Fujitsu is most likely not 1080p (some variant of 768p or 1080i tops). My experience has shown that the Oppo outputs 720p much better than the Marantz 8002 (which is a Denon 3800 clone).

He was using coaxial so forget 2CH. I had 2CH analog hooked up back when my 3800 was in the home theater (it's in the living room now).

Although Talk2Me said "transport", I don't think he meant he would force the Fujitsu to do all the video processing. Besides, the Oppo would make a far better "transport" since it has video source direct and the Denon/Marantz don't. Unless he posts again, we won't know what he was really after.
post #373 of 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

In the 8002 owner's thread, you state that you are connecting the Marantz player using coaxial to the MCD 500. Wouldn't going coaxial from the Oppo produce the same audio quality since you are dependent on the MCD 500 for the digital to analog conversion?

Unless, I'm mistaken your Fujitsu is most likely not 1080p (some variant of 768p or 1080i tops). My experience has shown that the Oppo outputs 720p much better than the Marantz 8002 (which is a Denon 3800 clone).

Yes, but I sold the Oppo first before I purchased the McIntosh MCD500. The pq on my Fujitsu is so much beeter with the Marantz 8200 than all the BDP I have tried: Oppo,Samsung 1500, Sony 360 and 2 others I forgot, since I only used for 1 night.
post #374 of 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talk2Me View Post

Yes, but I sold the Oppo first before I purchased the McIntosh MCD500. The pq on my Fujitsu is so much beeter with the Marantz 8200 than all the BDP I have tried: Oppo,Samsung 1500, Sony 360 and 2 others I forgot, since I only used for 1 night.

Do you still have the Spears and Munsil disc or DVE: HD Basics? Your report on how the BD8002 performs under 720p or 1080i would be valuable to this thread.
post #375 of 856
I'm not sure if this has been answered yet, but can the PS3 deinterlace 1080i-encoded Blu-ray discs well? Last time I checked it the PS3 firmware would not deinterlace 1080i and instead passed it to the HDTV interlaced. Since some TVs suck at this, I think this should be a video quality consideration in addition to DVD upscaling. There are a few 1080i deinterlacing benchmarks on Blu-ray you could use to determine this, or the multitude of 1080i-encoded movies.
post #376 of 856
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

winston9332,

So you're not going to give it the 5 Star rating that What HiFi gave the European version Sony BDP-S760, which by the was just named What HiFi’s Blu-ray player of the Year. (lol)

This just in from What HiFi:

Using today’s exchange rate ($1.6439) taken from Yahoo! Finance the US$ equivalents are in brackets.
  • Best Blu-ray player £300-£600 ($493.00 - $986.00): Sony BDP-S760
  • Best Blu-ray player up to £300 (up to $493.00): Sony BDP-S360
  • Best Blu-ray player £600+ ($986.00+): Sony BDP-S5000ES

It is very interesting that all 3 players are Sony’s.

By the way nice job.


Respectfully,
Willie

Willie,

The 1000ES is not a bad player - it makes sense at $350 in my opinion. Performance is similar to the Pioneer 320 at the end of the day. Its touted hd enhancer image when activated causes as many flaws as the hd perception it creates. It's biggest flaw is value. At $700, it's obscenely over-priced.
post #377 of 856
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

I'm not sure if this has been answered yet, but can the PS3 deinterlace 1080i-encoded Blu-ray discs well? Last time I checked it the PS3 firmware would not deinterlace 1080i and instead passed it to the HDTV interlaced. Since some TVs suck at this, I think this should be a video quality consideration in addition to DVD upscaling. There are a few 1080i deinterlacing benchmarks on Blu-ray you could use to determine this, or the multitude of 1080i-encoded movies.

The only 1080i encoded blu ray i think i own is the test patterns on the S&M disc. let check again to see what the ps3 slim outputs...you have me second guessing myself
post #378 of 856
winston9332 I agree with you.
In canada the 1000ES ( called the 760 like in europe) is reg $499 you only get 1 year warranty and no memory card. It is a better value. While the Pioneer 320 is $379

Would you say at this price you are better off with the pioneer over the sony?
if sound and PQ are your priority.
post #379 of 856
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugme1 View Post

winston9332 I agree with you.
In canada the 1000ES ( called the 760 like in europe) is reg $499 you only get 1 year warranty and no memory card. It is a better value. While the Pioneer 320 is $379

Would you say at this price you are better off with the pioneer over the sony?
if sound and PQ are your priority.

I don't want to offend the 1000ES fans - it's a nice player, but not nearly $700 nice. The Pioneer 320 is a hell of a player and Pioneer has decreased the load times to more reasonable lengths. The 1000ES brings wireless connectivity, which might important for some. To me, it's largely worthless in the absence of a streaming function like Netflix. The occassional firmware update (or even bd live access) are not big enough issues to warrant the need for wireless connectivity, which tends to be finnicky as well.

If it were my loonies on the table, I think I would opt for the Pioneer in the decision between the two and pocket the money for the piggy bank for the next wave of players out this spring.
post #380 of 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

I don't want to offend the 1000ES fans - it's a nice player, but not nearly $700 nice. The Pioneer 320 is a hell of a player and Pioneer has decreased the load times to more reasonable lengths. The 1000ES brings wireless connectivity, which might important for some. To me, it's largely worthless in the absence of a streaming function like Netflix. The occassional firmware update (or even bd live access) are not big enough issues to warrant the need for wireless connectivity, which tends to be finnicky as well.

If it were my loonies on the table, I think I would opt for the Pioneer in the decision between the two and pocket the money for the piggy bank for the next wave of players out this spring.

Or a whole bunch of movies!
post #381 of 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

I don't want to offend the 1000ES fans - it's a nice player, but not nearly $700 nice. The Pioneer 320 is a hell of a player and Pioneer has decreased the load times to more reasonable lengths. The 1000ES brings wireless connectivity, which might important for some. To me, it's largely worthless in the absence of a streaming function like Netflix. The occassional firmware update (or even bd live access) are not big enough issues to warrant the need for wireless connectivity, which tends to be finnicky as well.

If it were my loonies on the table, I think I would opt for the Pioneer in the decision between the two and pocket the money for the piggy bank for the next wave of players out this spring.

Thanks Winston9332, I was thinking the same but it is nice to have some one whom has compared them.
I was thinking about the Oppo but after reading the WHFI review I was left wondering. the sony costs less than the oppo 83 for us up here.
post #382 of 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

I don't want to offend the 1000ES fans - it's a nice player, but not nearly $700 nice. The Pioneer 320 is a hell of a player and Pioneer has decreased the load times to more reasonable lengths. The 1000ES brings wireless connectivity, which might important for some. To me, it's largely worthless in the absence of a streaming function like Netflix. The occassional firmware update (or even bd live access) are not big enough issues to warrant the need for wireless connectivity, which tends to be finnicky as well.

If it were my loonies on the table, I think I would opt for the Pioneer in the decision between the two and pocket the money for the piggy bank for the next wave of players out this spring.

Thanks Winston for making this comparsion between Sony and pioneer. It doesn't really matter about the price, all electronic goods dropped like hell. So get it later! This is one good thing about electronic, new product come out every year. If you are not in a hurry, just get it when they promote new model. !!
post #383 of 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

The only 1080i encoded blu ray i think i own is the test patterns on the S&M disc. let check again to see what the ps3 slim outputs...you have me second guessing myself

I can list about 20-30 Blu-rays I own that are 1080i encoded. Most of them are nature docs, concerts, or sports-related; although there are a couple of full length 24fps movies that are 1080i also by smaller studios. Anything 30fps is 1080i, there is quite a lot of it. So were you able to get 1080p out of a 1080i-encoded disc with your ps3?

1080i Blu-ray Discs only makes up about ~3-5% of the discs released, but when we are being picky like in this thread its definitely something that needs to be considered IMO - especially if a player cannot deinterlace it at all. I know the Oppo83 and Pio51 do a good job with deinterlacing 1080i Blu-ray, I know the Panasonic BD30 & Denon 2500 do a poor job, and IIRC the PS3 cannot do it at all unless that has changed in a FW update. If you have extra time probably worth evaluating for most accurate picture of video quality, afterall if someone primary buys concerts, nature docs, or live sports Blu-rays that person will probably have 1080i discs making up a large percentage of their collection - and thus would have no reference point for the chart you made thus far.

P.S. - Fantastic job on the chart, I think you nailed it on the head. Adding 1080i Blu-ray performance would make it perfect, because there are a ton of 1080i discs out there (I can go through my discs and list some if it would be helpful). If you don't already know about it, Nature's Journey Blu-ray is an excellent a/v quality eye candy piece with a lot of detail that is 1080i-encoded and might be a good real world benchmark in addition to the synthetic tests available:
http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/981/naturesjourney.html
post #384 of 856
Thread Starter 
Ruined is correct. I have re-tested the PS3 Slim with the latest firmware and paid particular attention to the resolution in bd sequences - it clearly remains at 1080i while others can deinterlace this image.

I am going to update the chart to reflect NA for all of the PS3 results (I would need to find a 480i test disc to evaluate its performance, which would throw out the whole level playing field objectivity).

So here's my question:

I am very much considering adding a column for bd deinterlacing (no appropriately labeled to ding the ps3 on the chart at the moment), but I am concerned that a lower score for the ps3 will confuse a lot of the casual readers.

Any ideas on how we show this shortcoming of the ps3?
post #385 of 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Ruined is correct. I have re-tested the PS3 Slim with the latest firmware and paid particular attention to the resolution in bd sequences - it clearly remains at 1080i while others can deinterlace this image.

I am going to update the chart to reflect NA for all of the PS3 results (I would need to find a 480i test disc to evaluate its performance, which would throw out the whole level playing field objectivity).

So here's my question:

I am very much considering adding a column for bd deinterlacing (no appropriately labeled to ding the ps3 on the chart at the moment), but I am concerned that a lower score for the ps3 will confuse a lot of the casual readers.

Any ideas on how we show this shortcoming of the ps3?

That's a tough one. BR deinterlacing is not going to be important to a lot of people (like me) but I have had to help users who could not figure out why a certain player was not producing a good image on a 1080i title (TORCHWOOD).

Have you found a scoring range for BR deinterlacing on current players, or is it just 1080i->1080p, yes/no?

-Bill
post #386 of 856
So many current Blu-ray players missing from this thread. A few that come to mind....

Panasonic DMP-BD60
Sony BDP-S360
Samsung BD-P1600

Would like to see some test results on those...
post #387 of 856
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHT View Post

So many current Blu-ray players missing from this thread. A few that come to mind....

Panasonic DMP-BD60
Sony BDP-S360
Samsung BD-P1600

Would like to see some test results on those...

60's offers identical performance to 55. check that.

Evidently, 3600 and 1600 are identical as well from what i have read.
post #388 of 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Evidently, 3600 and 1600 are identical as well from what i have read.

Own both. 3600 is slightly faster.
post #389 of 856
I think it would be useful to know what players have source direct capabilities. For example do the Sammy 3600, LG 390, and Pioneer 320 have this feature? Also do they have it both for BD 1080 24 or 60 and DVD at 480I?
post #390 of 856
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdlawler View Post

I think it would be useful to know what players have source direct capabilities. For example do the Sammy 3600, LG 390, and Pioneer 320 have this feature? Also do they have it both for BD 1080 24 or 60 and DVD at 480I?

If someone wants to collect it, I can add it as a dvd feature. I do not have the time.
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