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Official: Denon DBP-2010CI Blu-ray Player - Page 8

post #211 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by pierre.goyette View Post

I currently have a BD60 connected to a Panasonc TC-P54V10 and my Denon AVR-4310CI receiver should arrive soon.

So, I'm wondering if I should swap my BD60 for the 2010CI ? I originally chose the BD60 to work well with the V10 but now, I'm wondering if I'd be better with the 2010 given that the 4310 will drive everything...

Any comments?

TIA

Pierre

You definitely will have a better analogue section with the 2010 if you want to do experimenting. The 2010 should be better at sd dvds too. BD should be about the same frankly.
post #212 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by IwantmyTHX View Post

Are you saying Denon wouldn't honor their 1 year (way too short) warranty?

Denon has *NEVER* honored their warranty unless you pay full price from an "authorized dealer". Yeah, I knew that going in. Although, every other company does. Besides, you still have to pay for shipping both ways to NJ. Thats an a$$ load of money from California considering all the lead weights they stuck in this thing to make it so f'n heavy . Its like 40 to 50 pounds.

Either way... even if I had a perfectly working DVD-3930CI... I'm not too pleased at this BluRay player taking 1+ minute to load discs when other players accomplish the same task in 10 seconds.
post #213 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

Denon has *NEVER* honored their warranty unless you pay full price from an "authorized dealer". Yeah, I knew that going in. Although, every other company does. Besides, you still have to pay for shipping both ways to NJ. Thats an a$$ load of money from California considering all the lead weights they stuck in this thing to make it so f'n heavy . Its like 40 to 50 pounds.

Either way... even if I had a perfectly working DVD-3930CI... I'm not too pleased at this BluRay player taking 1+ minute to load discs when other players accomplish the same task in 10 seconds.

Which players load java discs in 10 seconds? It is not the fastest, but it is definitely not the slowest. It loaded T2 faster than the Samsung 3600 which is "supposed" to be one of the fastest players. BD, especially java based discs, will load slower. It is definitely not as bad as you are making it out to be. The 3600 opens quickly but the handshake and Samsung screen does not come on until some time later. With the Denon, the Denon screen and the Drawer open simoultaneously. I'd rather all of the code load properly than not load at all. Remember, these are more like computers than DVD players.

S~
post #214 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by teachsac View Post

Which players load java discs in 10 seconds? It is not the fastest, but it is definitely not the slowest. It loaded T2 faster than the Samsung 3600 which is "supposed" to be one of the fastest players. BD, especially java based discs, will load slower. It is definitely not as bad as you are making it out to be. I'd rather all of the code load properly than not load at all. Remeber, these are more like computers than DVD players.

S~

s, have you by chance hooked it up via mch? i am trying to confirm if it outputs via hdmi or 2ch simultaneously to mch (allows me to avoid running the receiver everytime
post #215 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

s, have you by chance hooked it up via mch? i am trying to confirm if it outputs via hdmi or 2ch simultaneously to mch (allows me to avoid running the receiver everytime

Not yet.

S~
post #216 of 912
The big selling point for me for buying my 2930ci was the easy tap-in hack that made it region-free. What is the 2010's status with region coding? Does it come region-free out of the box or is there a known code to make it so?
post #217 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by pierre.goyette View Post

I currently have a BD60 connected to a Panasonc TC-P54V10 and my Denon AVR-4310CI receiver should arrive soon.

So, I'm wondering if I should swap my BD60 for the 2010CI ? I originally chose the BD60 to work well with the V10 but now, I'm wondering if I'd be better with the 2010 given that the 4310 will drive everything...

Any comments?

TIA

Pierre

Pierre,

It sounds like you want a player that will match your new Denon receiver. I only say this because you jumped over several blu-ray players (Pioneer, Panasonic, Sony, etc.) price wise to consider the Denon 2010CI. What exactly are you looking to accomplish by upgrading? By the way the 4310 is a fantastic receiver.


Respectfully,
Willie
post #218 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by pierre.goyette View Post

I currently have a BD60 connected to a Panasonc TC-P54V10 and my Denon AVR-4310CI receiver should arrive soon.

So, I'm wondering if I should swap my BD60 for the 2010CI ? I originally chose the BD60 to work well with the V10 but now, I'm wondering if I'd be better with the 2010 given that the 4310 will drive everything...

Any comments?

TIA

Pierre

Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

You definitely will have a better analogue section with the 2010 if you want to do experimenting. The 2010 should be better at sd dvds too. BD should be about the same frankly.

winston9332,

He's picking up the Denon AVR-4310CI, which uses the same Anchor Bay ABT 2010CI chip for processing and scaling and the DACs are better in the AVR-4310CI. So unless I'm missing something there is no real benefit to picking up the 2010CI unless there is some further tweakability that is not available through the AVR-4310CI. I'm not even sure if tweakability is that important since he has lived with the Panasonic BD60 up to this point. If it were important I would like to think he would have went with the Panasonic BD80.


Respectfully,
Willie
post #219 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

winston9332,

He's picking up the Denon AVR-4310CI, which uses the same Anchor Bay ABT 2010CI chip for processing and scaling and the DACs are better in the AVR-4310CI. So unless I'm missing something there is no real benefit to picking up the 2010CI unless there is some further tweakability that is not available through the AVR-4310CI. I'm not even sure if tweakability is that important since he has lived with the Panasonic BD60 up to this point. If it were important I would like to think he would have went with the Panasonic BD80.


Respectfully,
Willie

It's been my experience that chips in receivers are not always implemented as well as in players. My 906 has the fabled reon chip, but I preferred the image directly from Samsung 2550 with the same reon chip then via source direct to the reon. I also tend to think that hdmi video feeds tend to look a bit better when connected directly to the display (probably why you're seeing high end players from denon and pioneer offer dual hdmi outputs). The 2010 would offer him the ability to decode internally and bypass some of the re-digitization the receiver might incorporate

I should have my 2010 this evening and will be able to comment in more detail as to differences.
post #220 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

I'm not even sure if tweakability is that important since he has lived with the Panasonic BD60 up to this point. If it were important I would like to think he would have went with the Panasonic BD80.


Respectfully,
Willie

Willie, in regard to PQ, the 50 and 80 are identical I believe. same tweaking and same forced 24fps of dvds. audio is a different story of course.
post #221 of 912
So, here's my thinking of why I might change:

1) I got the BD60 when I picked up the TC-P54V10. I wanted a BD player at a reasonable price and at that time (6 weeks ago :-) I liked the fact that both parts were from the same vendor and interoperability would not be a problem.

2) Since then, I've had some time to play a bit and read more. Although the BD60 is great, I miss the option of being able to play raw DivX files. Now, the BD80 becomes an option (especially since it dropped $100 in price in Canada). I know it has exactly the same chipset and logic but it has some added functionality which might be used.

3) I was looking at the 2010CI because : a) interoperability b) known chipset ABT 1030 whereas Panny's chipset appears proprietary

I know the Denon has better audio but I'll be playing my music through the 4310's DLNA server support so that doesn't come into play. The Panasonic has the USB port which is useful to play videos or show photos, the Denon doesn't. I played some SD DVDs last night as a test and the upscaled image looked great to me. Not sure if I'd see a difference with the Denon or even Oppo (I alreday own a 971H which I found great, horrible remote).

So, not I must admit that I'm partially confused and don't see much value in paying extra $$$ for the Denon. Especially, if I let the 4310 do the upscaling... I hope to get my 4310 soon and can then test to see how it processes upscaling compared to the internal scaling on the BD60/80. I was hoping the 2010 would support the Denon 4th Link but that's only in the much $$$$ A1UDCI...

I'll be curious to hear winston9332's comments when he gets his 2010.

One other point, I've read that you can force the BD60/80 to 24fps but I haven't seen that option. When I insert BD discs which are 1080p/24fps, they play and the TV reports this properly. But last night, I tossed in some SD DVDs and did not get the 24fps. Where's the option for this?
post #222 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by pierre.goyette View Post

So, here's my thinking of why I might change:

1) I got the BD60 when I picked up the TC-P54V10. I wanted a BD player at a reasonable price and at that time (6 weeks ago :-) I liked the fact that both parts were from the same vendor and interoperability would not be a problem.

2) Since then, I've had some time to play a bit and read more. Although the BD60 is great, I miss the option of being able to play raw DivX files. Now, the BD80 becomes an option (especially since it dropped $100 in price in Canada). I know it has exactly the same chipset and logic but it has some added functionality which might be used.

3) I was looking at the 2010CI because : a) interoperability b) known chipset ABT 1030 whereas Panny's chipset appears proprietary

I know the Denon has better audio but I'll be playing my music through the 4310's DLNA server support so that doesn't come into play. The Panasonic has the USB port which is useful to play videos or show photos, the Denon doesn't. I played some SD DVDs last night as a test and the upscaled image looked great to me. Not sure if I'd see a difference with the Denon or even Oppo (I alreday own a 971H which I found great, horrible remote).

So, not I must admit that I'm partially confused and don't see much value in paying extra $$$ for the Denon. Especially, if I let the 4310 do the upscaling... I hope to get my 4310 soon and can then test to see how it processes upscaling compared to the internal scaling on the BD60/80. I was hoping the 2010 would support the Denon 4th Link but that's only in the much $$$$ A1UDCI...

I'll be curious to hear winston9332's comments when he gets his 2010.

One other point, I've read that you can force the BD60/80 to 24fps but I haven't seen that option. When I insert BD discs which are 1080p/24fps, they play and the TV reports this properly. But last night, I tossed in some SD DVDs and did not get the 24fps. Where's the option for this?

If you're bitstreaming, there will be absolutely no difference in audio between the 60 and the 2010. The receiver will handle it all. The option for 1080p/24 for SDDVD on the 60 is in the display menu. While the movie is playing hit display on the remote. It must be set each time you play a DVD.

S~
post #223 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by teachsac View Post

Which players load java discs in 10 seconds? It is not the fastest, but it is definitely not the slowest. It loaded T2 faster than the Samsung 3600 which is "supposed" to be one of the fastest players. BD, especially java based discs, will load slower. It is definitely not as bad as you are making it out to be. The 3600 opens quickly but the handshake and Samsung screen does not come on until some time later. With the Denon, the Denon screen and the Drawer open simoultaneously. I'd rather all of the code load properly than not load at all. Remember, these are more like computers than DVD players.

S~

Just going off the benchmarks in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1156535

According to that, the Denon 1800 and Denon 2500 (last gen) are the slowest players around.

They may have sped things up on these new players, but it sounds like they are still very slow .
post #224 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

Just going off the benchmarks in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1156535

According to that, the Denon 1800 and Denon 2500 (last gen) are the slowest players around.

They may have sped things up on these new players, but it sounds like they are still very slow .

Not as slow as Pioneers.
post #225 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by teachsac View Post

Not as slow as Pioneers.

Which is like saying: My car is faster than a Prius.
post #226 of 912
Just dropped off by UPS - have to head to work, so no real impressions yet except:

bit slower to eject than the 2500 - 17 seconds vs 2500's 14 seconds
build quality is there - player is heavy and feels stout.
very good looking
post #227 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Just dropped off by UPS - have to head to work, so no real impressions yet except:

bit slower to eject than the 2500 - 17 seconds vs 2500's 14 seconds
build quality is there - player is heavy and feels stout.
very good looking

What?! You have time to work?
post #228 of 912
Major hdmi handshake issue with my 8G Kuro out of the box. Make sure you turnoff the HDMI control from the player or you will have HDMI gremlins galore going in and our of menus and what not. I am still getting HDMI gremlins upon power off and power on.

Menus are largely identical to 1800 and 2500; they are sparse but easy to follow. I was hoping for a bit more color and refinement, but they work. The 2010 does allow five memory settings for PQ adjustment, but does not offer any canned settings like the Pioneer 320 and 51.

Operational speed and responsiveness have largely improved from the 2500, but i would not categorize it as quick. Powered off eject time is consistently 17 seconds as TEACHSAC has commented. Load times are mid-pack to slow and by no means fast.

For example:
Dark Knight: to anti-piracy page
JVC: 17 seconds
Oppo: 16 seconds
Pio 320: 42 seconds
Pio 51: 45 seconds
Denon 1800: 42 seconds
Denon 2500: 48 seconds
Denon 2010: 36 seconds

Heavy Java discs showed a bigger improvement, shaving nearly 20 seconds off the POTC1 from the 2500.

Build quality is more compact, but it is heavy and substantial. I would compare it to the Oppo without hesitation. The oppo weighs 11lbs and the 2010 weighs 10.6lbs. The Oppo is a hair taller and has a more imposing stance in a rack. I would give the nod to the Denon in regard to looks, although I prefer the 2500 to both.

In respects of my initial testing, the abt chip does not recognize film cadences and deinterlace as well as the Oppo in synthetic tests. Its performance is good, but not as quick or accurate as the Oppo or for that matter the JVC XV-BP1. It does an admirable job with video based content. Color accuracy was very good and did not push red like the denon 1800.

BD performance at 1080P 24fps was excellent and identical to the 2500/1800/Oppo. I am a believer that BD at 1080P 24fps is largely identical with normal viewing distances/display sizes (i am using a 50" kuro).

SD Upscaling on the little material is definitely better than the 2500 and 1800. I have not been able to put my finger on it, but I think it might be enhancing the contrast to give the image more pop. Colors are pretty neutral and accurate. The image is very similar to the Oppo. I am reasonably impressed with its upscaling ability. More time will give me a better feel for it, but first impressions are positive.

My early gripes are that Denon did not improve speed significantly; I think the higher end CEs like pioneer, denon and others are struggling to make the gains that the koreans have. Interestingly, Samsung only made the gains when they dropped the real benefit of their players -the reon chip.

I am going to try out the analogues this weekend and really put it through the paces and give a more meaningful review.
post #229 of 912
So far the two channel dacs are very good. I am going to put together an analogue comparison with the pio 51, pio 320, oppo, and denon this weekend.
post #230 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

bit slower to eject than the 2500 - 17 seconds vs 2500's 14 seconds

Thats Denon innovation for ya .
post #231 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

Thats Denon innovation for ya .

I will admit it's not as fast as a samsung 3600, but i bought it for the burr browns, abt chipset, and build quality. thus far, i have not been disappointed by those.
post #232 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Major hdmi handshake issue with my 8G Kuro out of the box. Make sure you turnoff the HDMI control from the player or you will have HDMI gremlins galore going in and our of menus and what not. I am still getting HDMI gremlins upon power off and power on.

Denon has always had a really weak HDMI implementation on all products. I have an AVR-3808CI and a DVD-3930CI and both output a weak (electrically) HDMI signal that *easily* starts to break down if you have junctions along the path (ie. wall plates or elbows or unions, etc.). Basically, when it comes to Denons HDMI, you want absolutely NOTHING in its path.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Menus are largely identical to 1800 and 2500; they are sparse but easy to follow. I was hoping for a bit more color and refinement, but they work. The 2010 does allow five memory settings for PQ adjustment, but does not offer any canned settings like the Pioneer 320 and 51.

I don't get this. Everybody knows that people have come to expect colorful, well defined menus. Especially on higher end stuff. The AVR-3808CI has a relatively good looking menu system, but its flakey and flashes a lot and leaves pixel droppings everywhere .

Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Operational speed and responsiveness have largely improved from the 2500, but i would not categorize it as quick. Powered off eject time is consistently 17 seconds as TEACHSAC has commented. Load times are mid-pack to slow and by no means fast.

For example:
Dark Knight: to anti-piracy page
JVC: 17 seconds
Oppo: 16 seconds
Pio 320: 42 seconds
Pio 51: 45 seconds
Denon 1800: 42 seconds
Denon 2500: 48 seconds
Denon 2010: 36 seconds

Ok... I'll admit it. They did something (almost) right here. Going from 48 seconds to 36 seconds is a good improvement, but NOT when you compare it to the JVC and the Oppo which are 50% faster . Denon load times have always sucked. Even on the DVD players. Not quite sure why. Somebody needs to send the Denon engineers to optical disc school .

Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Build quality is more compact, but it is heavy and substantial. I would compare it to the Oppo without hesitation. The oppo weighs 11lbs and the 2010 weighs 10.6lbs. The Oppo is a hair taller and has a more imposing stance in a rack. I would give the nod to the Denon in regard to looks, although I prefer the 2500 to both.

I'll give it to Denon here. Their build quality and looks have always been great. *BUT* they tend to overbuild stuff. 10.6lbs is OK I guess considering the DVD-3930CI is like 40lbs or something insane like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

My early gripes are that Denon did not improve speed significantly; I think the higher end CEs like pioneer, denon and others are struggling to make the gains that the koreans have. Interestingly, Samsung only made the gains when they dropped the real benefit of their players -the reon chip.

Denon != performance. Never has. They've nailed audio performance, but they just aren't very good on the video and overall performance side of things. I don't quite think they've gotten the hang of computer based CE devices yet. The sad thing is... it doesn't look like they are very interested in that aspect of things. If a 50th generation DVD player like the DVD-3930CI can't bang out performance, its a sad, sad day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

I am going to try out the analogues this weekend and really put it through the paces and give a more meaningful review.

Thanks for the review man!
post #233 of 912
I have been doing some comparison of a number of discs and have been really impressed by this player's ability. At this point, I think it offers the best sd dvd upscaling I have experienced save the Oppo. I would say it is on par with the Pioneer 320/51, but does not appear to crush blacks and offers good shadow detail. For Pioneer owners, do not take this as a criticism; the Pioneer 320/51 offer incredible dvd playback in my humbe opinion.

To add some objectivity, here are the results of the deinterlacing tests offered by S&M test disc for film cadences:

Test Pio 320 Oppo JVC denon 1800 denon 2500 denon 2010
2:02 pass pass* pass fail fail pass
2:2:2:4 fail pass pass fail fail fail
2:3:2:3 (PF-T) Pass pass pass pass* pass pass*
2:3:2:3 pass pass pass pass pass* pass
2:3:3:2 marg pass pass fail fail fail
3:2:3:2:2 fail pass pass fail fail fail
5:05 pass pass pass marginal marginal marginal
6:04 marginal pass pass fail fail marginal
8:7:8:7 marginal pass pass maginal marginal marginal
24p - Pass pass pass pass pass pass
Time-adjusted fail pass fail marginal fail fail
post #234 of 912
Was finally able to exchange my player today. Tested the new one at the dealer's and it worked. Got it home and it would not load any discs. Can you say frustrated. After a bunch of trial and error (and the odd curse), finally stumbled across the solution. In Custom - Other, I turned HDMI CEC (no explanation as to what that is in the manual) to Off and that did the trick. Discs started to load and play. Can anyone tell me what HDMI CEC is and why having it "on" would stop discs from loading even though they loaded at the dealer's. Running an HDMI cable to the tv (Pioneer Elite Kuro) and analog outs to my Krell pre-pro.

Now that it's running, picture is stellar, although hard to notice any real improvement over the Panasonic BD55 it's replacing (retired to the bedroom tv). Believe there to be an improvement over the Panny on the audio side of things, not that the Panny was a slouch in the audio department.
post #235 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murrayb View Post

Was finally able to exchange my player today. Tested the new one at the dealer's and it worked. Got it home and it would not load any discs. Can you say frustrated. After a bunch of trial and error (and the odd curse), finally stumbled across the solution. In Custom - Other, I turned HDMI CEC (no explanation as to what that is in the manual) to Off and that did the trick. Discs started to load and play. Can anyone tell me what HDMI CEC is and why having it "on" would stop discs from loading even though they loaded at the dealer's. Running an HDMI cable to the tv (Pioneer Elite Kuro) and analog outs to my Krell pre-pro.

Now that it's running, picture is stellar, although hard to notice any real improvement over the Panasonic BD55 it's replacing (retired to the bedroom tv). Believe there to be an improvement over the Panny on the audio side of things, not that the Panny was a slouch in the audio department.

I had this same issue. The Pioneer and Denon do not handshake well and it prevents the discs from loading. Turn CEC off and you should not have issues other than some minor gremlins and power on/off.
post #236 of 912
I am currently updating my 2010 via the ethernet...anyone know how many versions are out there?
post #237 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

I am currently updating my 2010 via the ethernet...anyone know how many versions are out there?

Just the one I've seen that updated the first day I had it. Haven't had it hooked up the last few days.

S~
post #238 of 912
Oh and I do not think you can get HDMI simultaneously with MCH. One would have to run a parallel connection via the dedicated two channel outputs to a tv if someone wanted to alternate b/w a display only AND ht system setup
post #239 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Oh and I do not think you can get HDMI simultaneously with MCH. One would have to run a parallel connection via the dedicated two channel outputs to a tv if someone wanted to alternate b/w a display only AND ht system setup

I didn't think you could.

S~
post #240 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by teachsac View Post

I didn't think you could.

S~

Pioneer lets you - unsure about the oppo.
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