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Anthem D2v and RCA vs. XLR cables

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
I have an Anthem D2v processor. My current amplifier is the Rotel RMB-1095. All my HT devices are connected with RCA cables. I'm considering replacing the Rotel within the next six months with either a Bryston or Classe amp. For now, I'm exploring whether to replace the D2v to amplifier RCA cables with XLR cables.

1) Has anyone done comparative listening to the D2v with both RCA and XLR cables? I'm trying to figure out this one: "A system connected by balanced interconnects can, however, often sound less good than one connected with unbalanced lines."

2) Are the D2v lines considered to be fully balanced?

The following is an excerpt from Robert Harley's. The full article is available on monstercable's website:

"Quite apart from the advantage of noise cancellation in a balanced line, a balanced connection often sounds better than an unbalanced line. A system connected by balanced interconnects can, however, often sound less good than one connected with unbalanced lines. Say you have a digital processor that takes an unbalanced signal from the digital-to-analog converter chip and converts it to a balanced signal so that the processor manufacturer can tout the product as having "balanced outputs" (see the section on balanced digital processors in Chapter 8). Inside the digital processor, the unbalanced signal is converted to a balanced signal by a phase splitter, a circuit that takes a signal of one polarity and turns it into two signals of opposite polarity. Phase splitting subjects the unbalanced signal to an additional active (transistor- or op-amp- based) stage and puts more circuitry in the signal path.

The balanced digital processor output is then input to a balanced-input preamplifier. Because all but the very best balanced preamplifiers convert a balanced input signal to an unbalanced signal for the preamplifier's internal gain stages, the preamplifier's input converts this balanced signal to an unbalanced signal-adding yet another active stage to the signal path. After the unbalanced signal is amplified within the preamplifier, it is converted back to balanced with another phase splitter.

The preamplifier's balanced output is then sent from the preamplifier output to the power amplifier's balanced input where it's-that's right-converted to unbalanced with yet another active stage. The result of these unbalanced/balanced/unbalanced/balanced/unbalanced conversions is additional electronics in the signal path-just what we don't want. This is why you can't assume that balanced components sound inherently better than unbalanced ones. Magazine reviews of audio components should include musical and technical comparisons of the product's balanced and unbalanced modes.

Some products, however, are truly balanced and don't rely on phase splitters and unbalancing amplifiers. For example, a digital processor may create a balanced signal in the digital domain (at no sonic penalty but, indeed, a sonic gain) and convert that balanced signal to analog with four digital-to-analog converters and analog output stages (left channel + and -, right channel + and -). Similarly, some preamplifiers are truly balanced and have double the circuitry to operate on the non-inverting and inverting signals separately. You can tell a truly balanced preamplifier by the number of elements in the volume control. A preamplifier that operates on an unbalanced signal internally will have two volume-control elements: one for the left channel, one for the right. A fully balanced preamplifier will have four elements: ± left channel and ± right channel. The signal thus stays balanced from before the DACs inside the digital processor all the way to the final stages in the power amplifier.

As in all things audio, the proof is in the listening. When shopping for a component, listen to it in both balanced and unbalanced modes. Let your ears decide if the component works best in your system when connected via the balanced or unbalanced lines.
post #2 of 18
Whatever. I prefer XLRs because of their more positive and enduring physical connection.
post #3 of 18
Excalibur-100
Quote:


2) Are the D2v lines considered to be fully balanced?

That I do not know but most processors are not fully balanced through out.

Quote:


The following is an excerpt from Robert Harley's. The full article is available on monstercable's website:

Don't worry about what monster cable says since they sell snake oil. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_line you can read into what a balanced connection can offer over and unbalanced connection.

Kal Rubinson
Quote:


Whatever. I prefer XLRs because of their more positive and enduring physical connection.

I agree with this and since the one end of the XLR will lock into place.
post #4 of 18
I upgraded from my Pioneer receiver with RCA's to my Wyred4Sound Amp to the D2v with balanced, with that change I got rid of some line noise that I had a problem with.... I would like to think it was the balanced cables that helped my problem here, but I think the noise was coming right from the AVR and the RCA's were just passing that along as a semi ground loop issue...

I much prefer the Balanced Cables as it has givin me a perfectly quiet noise floor...

There is no ground lug on the D2v, but there is on the Wyred Amp, and the balanced cable transfers that ground through the XLR to the D2v... I think its the best way to go IMO

Monoprice has fantastic XLR's at a nice price.... looking at the site, it looks like they have plastic ends, but they are indeed metal and very nicely put together - great quality

http://www.monoprice.com/products/su...02&cp_id=10244
post #5 of 18
I am not sure if it will make a difference or not, but my Simaudio Titan amp is balanced and I plan on buying a pre/pro that I can run XLR's.

Although it is a short run, my amp has the ability so why not use it?

I have a NAD M15 which has been great. The M15HD will not be balanced.

Will probably look to Anthem, Arcam or Primare.

Rick
post #6 of 18
Oh and from Anthems FAQ....

http://statement.anthemav.com/HTML/T...upport.html#Q1
Quote:


What about the whole circuit from front to back - is it fully balanced?

A: No. At some point the signal must become single-ended, or interference can't be cancelled. This is better done sooner rather than later in the signal chain. The purpose of a balanced stage within a circuit is cancelling out nonlinearities arising in the circuit itself, and/or to double the signal level while cancelling out some noise. This is purely a means, not an end. We use a balanced arrangement in specific areas within a circuit where it makes a meaningful difference. Doing this to an entire piece of equipment for the sake of using the catch phrase "fully balanced" may achieve nothing but a significant increase in cost, or worse if the two halves of the circuit aren't matched well.

Q9: Why do the power cords have two prongs instead of three?

A: To help prevent ground loops, which occur when there is more than one ground path. Often misunderstood, the ground conductor prevents the chassis from becoming live if the AC line touches it. We use double insulation instead, something that may sound unfamiliar, but you've seen it before on power tools. This method may cost a little more, but no one can resort to using a 3-prong to 2-prong adapter to open a ground loop ("cheater" plug in this case since the green wire is used for decoration instead of safety).

Q1: Are the XLR connections on the amps and preamps truly balanced?

A: Yes. All three pins of the XLR connection are part of the circuit, which means it's a real balanced connection. (If pin 3 is sent to ground or left open, as is sometimes the case, then an XLR jack is an adapter, not a balanced input.) The purpose of balanced connection is cancelling out certain types of interference and ground loops.


Another quote from EJ at Wyred4Sound
Quote:


Even though the amplifier will be driven balanced on a single-ended source, there are many advantages to using balanced (XLR). This would mainly be beneficial if you can connect from the beginning with XLR all the way to the amplifier.

An RCA connector consists of a + signal, and ground (shield). An XLR connector consists of a + signal, - signal, and ground (shield).

When using RCA, the ground (shield) is connected to the – signal input on the amplifier. If you have any noise or interference in your system, it will be amplified through the amp, and out your speakers. The amplifier then derives the – signal from the + signal by inverting it 180deg out of phase with respect to the + input.

When using XLR the + and – signals are a product of the source, and the ground is simply a shield. The major advantage is that the ground or shield isn’t tied in with any of the signals. Not to mention that neither of the signals are “made up”, or referenced to ground.

All in all, we have found that XLR connections have a much better sonics than RCA. The most noticable would be that the noise level is reduced. Some of the cheapest XLR cables, can be much better than some of the expensive RCA's, so that would be something to consider. However, if you have a REALLY quiet system (noise), you wouldn't see much improvement.

Not exactly sure how exactly accurate that info is, but it makes sense to me, coming from an engineer...
post #7 of 18
Please, XLR's are for long runs and if you want a solid connection between the cable and the equipment No difference in sound I am starting to smell that, the more I pay, the better the sound To bad the third prong can't cancel out Dogma and Superstition That's what it should say in the Anthem description. But they won't, and you know why.
post #8 of 18
I chose to relocate my P5 in a basement room away from my D1 due to heat being generated by the AMP. When they were collocated I had used XLR. I really did not want to spend the bucks for the 24 ft XLR cables and used RCA from Blue Jeans. I never heard a bit of difference between the two cable connection types. Have had no interference problems. I suspect if you have a problem the XLR might fix it. If you do not have a problem in the making with the long runs there is no gain from what I have experienced.
post #9 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by video_bit_bucket View Post

I suspect if you have a problem the XLR might fix it. If you do not have a problem in the making with the long runs there is no gain from what I have experienced.


This is exactly what I was trying to convey here....

I never noticed a difference or improvement in sound, but it did fix the issues I had, obviously everyones situation will be different here, but I am thankful I no longer have a slight buzzing coming through my tweeters.
post #10 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by video_bit_bucket View Post

I chose to relocate my P5 in a basement room away from my D1 due to heat being generated by the AMP. When they were collocated I had used XLR. I really did not want to spend the bucks for the 24 ft XLR cables and used RCA from Blue Jeans. I never heard a bit of difference between the two cable connection types. Have had no interference problems. I suspect if you have a problem the XLR might fix it. If you do not have a problem in the making with the long runs there is no gain from what I have experienced.

I'm sure you guys are correct but I guess I am one of those money wasting weirdos that feel if you have it(xlr), use it.

With my recent amp purchase and soon to upgrade my pre/pro, it just doesn't make sense to me to not try/use the xlr connections.

Heck, I could then also use the xlr connections on my dual REL subs as well.

I guess I am one that helps to keep the cable companies going as I also really like my aftermarket power cords as well! What's a half dozen or so xlr cables?

Rick
post #11 of 18
"All in all, we have found that XLR connections have a much better sonics than RCA. The most noticable would be that the noise level is reduced. Some of the cheapest XLR cables, can be much better than some of the expensive RCA's, so that would be something to consider. However, if you have a REALLY quiet system (noise), you wouldn't see much improvement."

It is only a matter of noise because BAL-XLR connections have greatly reduced immunity to RF-induced noise and, for long runs in RF-noisy environments, it offers a distinct advantage. However, unless that is an issue, there is absolutely no general advantage to BAL-XLR. (I am excluding unique devices/combinations which work best one way or the other because of design or accident.)

I use 10meter interconnects from my pre to my L/C/R power amps and I have used many, RCA and XLR, over the last 2 decades. All have been without any noise problems and indistinguishable (by noise level), until you put your ear to the tweeter.
post #12 of 18
I use XLRs on all of my connections between my D2 and 3 amps,
1. I like the positive connection
2. The amp that drives my L\\C\\R speakers is 30 wire feet from the D2.
3. The amp that drives my subs is also 30 wire feet from the D2
4. The amp that drives the side and rear surrounds is only 6 wire feet from the D2 but the gain differs between RCA and balanced I thought they should all match.
5. I bought Belden bulk cable and Neutrik XLRs from an electronic supply house for a reasonable price.
I think if possible\
eeded using long input\\output cables and short speaker cables makes sense.
Soldering XLRs is a real PITA but worth it to me.

I don't believe the D2 is balanced from end-to-end.
post #13 of 18
[quote=Kal Rubinson;16696006](I am excluding unique devices/combinations which work best one way or the other because of design or accident.)QUOTE]

This is the tricky part then, no, the exclusions/combo's? You buy gear and have no way of knowing if XLR makes a diff or not. I have read reviews for some gear and it's stated in the reviews that the XLR connection proved for greater results.

It's tough to know unless you try. I guess rent a cable from the Cable Co is the best bet to find out.

I don't have a long run but would really like to at least try my Simaudio Titan in balanced mode with an equal pre/pro.

Thanks for the comment....

Rick
post #14 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by CETA1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

(I am excluding unique devices/combinations which work best one way or the other because of design or accident.)

This is the tricky part then, no, the exclusions/combo's? You buy gear and have no way of knowing if XLR makes a diff or not. I have read reviews for some gear and it's stated in the reviews that the XLR connection proved for greater results.

Sure. That is what I have allowed for but, I have to say that I have yet to come across a significant difference in my personal experience.
post #15 of 18
Thread Starter 
Thanks everyone for the feedback. It was interesting to see the different perspectives. Based on the responses, it doesn't look like anyone has done a listening comparison of RCA vs. XLR cables for the D2v. Looks like I may have to try it myself, which I may do to see whether it reduces or eliminates the slight buzzing I occasionally hear when the VPI Scout turntable is selected as the source. BTW, most of my equipment is connected with Audioquest King Cobra cables.
post #16 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur-100 View Post

Thanks everyone for the feedback. It was interesting to see the different perspectives. Based on the responses, it doesn't look like anyone has done a listening comparison of RCA vs. XLR cables for the D2v. Looks like I may have to try it myself, which I may do to see whether it reduces or eliminates the slight buzzing I occasionally hear when the VPI Scout turntable is selected as the source. BTW, most of my equipment is connected with Audioquest King Cobra cables.

Is your turntable a 2 or 3 prong power plug? You could sell the audioquest cables for a huge profit and look at cables from monoprice or bluejeanscable.
post #17 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Planescape View Post

Is your turntable a 2 or 3 prong power plug? You could sell the audioquest cables for a huge profit and look at cables from monoprice or bluejeanscable.

The turntable has a 3 prong power plug. Thanks for the info about monoprice and bluejeanscable. I'll take a look at them.
post #18 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur-100 View Post

The turntable has a 3 prong power plug. Thanks for the info about monoprice and bluejeanscable. I'll take a look at them.

You can try a cheater plug to see if there is a grounding problem that is causing the hum. If the cheater plug fixes the problem then you can go from there.
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