Will an HDMI splitter lower picture quality or have input lag?

From what I have read while looking into HDMI splitters, your best bet is to go with a powered unit. The passive ones do not get good reviews and rarely work.

For what you want to do, it would probably be less expensive to just invest in a dual DVI output video card for your PC. The powered HDMI splitters that I have seen were quite expensive, much more than what you would pay for a nice card. And check Amazon for prices on DVI to HDMI cables, they work and are pennies a foot.

Mike

Since HDMI is digital it either works perfectly, or very badly, and there won't be any lag.

You probably will have to contact Monoprice to see if the splitter will support the WUXGA resolution.

If you have an extra PCI slot in your PC, just add another card. I have Macs, and that is how we do it. I would assume you can do the same on a PC. That is the route I would take.

Mike

Be careful going from HDMI to DVI.

DVI to HDMI is generally not a problem, but DVI doesn't always play nice with HDMI input. It may be a good idea to use a signal converter to strip out the HDMI audio and present a pure DVI signal to the DVI devices. Cable adapters do not provide this functionality.

My experience with monoprice's splitter/switcher was good for about a day. While in use, it stopped sending the advanced audio codecs to my receiver...sent only 2 channel audio. I had to send it back. I am going to try an Octavia this week.

I am also looking for a good HDMI splitter to go from VP to PJ & a small LCD display. i will be using the LCD display for OSD from all the components. This way I don't have to turn the PJ on while doing calibrations. Can anybody suggest a good reliable HDMI splitter which does not cause loss of resolution/ I am not as concerned about splitting audio.

I have been using the CDA-HD20 for the past year. For $69.00, it was worth the extra money for the reliability of the unit.

just to backup the above post - I bought this same unit (thanks to the above post) and it works on my Yamaha RX1600 Integrated Amplifier with my OPPO-83BD/Toshiba670DVD-VHScombo units hooked to my 32" HDTV Philips aka 2004 CRT TV.

in case any of the info is helpful to anyone here.

Is there difference between HDMI splitter and switcher when it comes to delay etc. I mean, is one technique superior to the other one?

I've read that HDMI matrix usually has delay when switching inputs/outputs. Does splitters and switches have same kind of delays?

Is there difference in quality/delay/etc if I route HDMI through AVR vs through switch?

I'm looking to get 3 HDMI inputs and 2 outputs (TV and projector) and I want the image on one display at the time. 3x2 or 4x2 switcher is what I need?
Edited by onse - 3/12/13 at 11:48pm

First, let's get rid of the easier question in your subject line. HDMI sends video and audio bits. Neither a splitter (distribution amp is a better term) nor a matrix switcher will change those bits, so the audio and video quality is exactly what went into the device. These are active devices in that some processing does occur but the output quality of the signal that you care about is the same as what went in. The exception to this is if certain matrix switchers tell the source to lower the resolution. But in those cases the user would select the option to do that and it would not happen without your knowledge.

As far as lag and delay, you're mixing terms in your question. If you are asking about switching delays (you switch something and then you have to wait for it to appear) that is normal with HDMI. That is the result of handshaking that goes on between the sink (the display device usually) and the source. A switcher can add (or in some cases can reduce) that time. However, that does not lead to a lag in the video or audio once the handshaking is complete.

If you mean whether the amount of time it takes for the source's output to be display on the sink device, then that lag is the result of the various processing that goes on with the HDMI signal. Another active component can add to the lag (it certainly can't shorten the lag) but in my experience any extra delay is swamped by the other components in the system.

As for what you would want, if you are going from multiple sources to 2 outputs, then you'll want a matrix switcher. However, please read up on the least common denominator feature of HDMI. If you have unlike sinks, then you will be limited to an output signal that is compatible with both devices (assuming 2 TVs). There are ways to get around that but in those cases one or the other (again assuming 2 sinks) will not get a valid signal.

You might want to read through the archives of this forum since there are a lot of people who believe that just because they hit the "off" button on their TV, the HDMI handshaking stops. It's not true in most cases. This can lead to the lowest common denominator occuring even when one TV is off.
Edited by alk3997 - 3/13/13 at 7:21am

Yes I meant the delay time when you press the input selection button and you wait for the picture to appear.

I've read about the lowest common denominator issue and found out this: http://ihdmi.eu/cgibin/shop?info=3nspp2

Thats only 1x2 though.

Both my TV and projector will be 1080p non 3D so this should not be a big problem and I would not have to use those kind of products.

Wouldn't switcher be enough for me since I only have one display on at once (TV on the wall and projector screen will drop down in front of it when needed? Isn't matrix used if you want both displays on at the same time with different sources?

I didn't recommend a switcher because while HDMI has a hot plug pin, hot plugging an HDMI can cause damage. Usually it is someone who damages the connectors by repeats plug/unplus cycles, although sometimes it is from inserting the connector "off-kilter". There is a significant amount of current (compared to RCA cables) in the HDMI signal. Here's an example of what can happen from this forum's archives:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1408779/sparks-and-smoke-hdmi-extender-shorted-out-my-video-card

Also keep in mind that some older HDMI source components cannot handle swapping TVs, even though they should be able to. It doesn't seem to be a problem with more modern equipment, but some of the older (mid-2000s) equipment had issues without a reboot.

So, if you want to disconnect the sources, the switcher and the TVs from AC power each time you want to swap TVs, then a switcher would be appropriate. Otherwise a matrix switcher is what would normally be used (or an AVR with two HDMI outputs). Octava has matrix switchers as does Monoprice, among other companies. I used Octava before upgrading the AVR.

Joe sells Octava and can be found on this forum for questions.

I wouldn't hot plug HDMI cables since once they are in place there would be no need to touch them.

I will buy all new stuff. My HTPC is the oldest equipment I have which was made in 2009 or 2010.

Is switching same as hot plugging? I mean, when you switch you don't remove the cable of course, but does it behave the same way as if I hot plugged the cable in the switcher? Does HDMI AVR's have same problem and if not why? AVR's use matrix?

Here you can see the two different setups I have been thinking:

HDMI AVR and splitter: http://i.imgur.com/PvBGMCp.jpg
Non HDMI AVR and switcher: http://i.imgur.com/BduuHrV.jpg

Not sure yet which way I go.

Unfortunately I don't have too much time this morning but I went through your first diagram. If you have a modern AVR, you probably don't need a switch as well (put the money you were going to spend on the switch towards a better AVR). I wasn't understanding how you were planning to use the switch.

Take a look at a Denon AVR-2313CI (for instance) and you'll see two HDMI outputs, which is what I think you are looking for. Just eliminate the switch and use the AVR instead for sending both HDMI signals. You may, however, need a distribution amp (not a switch) at the PC if you want to send the same picture to the PC monitor and the AVR. If you have a video card that has multiple types of outputs and you can use two of those instead, then you won't need the dist amp.

With HDMI less is better since that means less chances of handshaking issues as well as reducing lengths. Also remember that passive high speed cables are limited to approximately 25 feet. Above 25 feet you should look at something like a Redmere cable or converting to Cat 6.


I'll see if I can get some time to look at the second diagram later today (probably while my VMWare system is needing a virtual reboot again).

Looking at the second diagram, that would normally call for a matrix switcher (not just a switcher). However, since you want the exact same thing going out to both displays, you *could* use a 4 x 1 switcher into a 1 x 2 distribution amp. This is more of a "kludge" but could work or it could cause handshaking issues depending upon which make/model of switch and distribution amp you use (I'd have no recommendation). For that reason I'd recommend the matrix switcher over the combo-package.

A few notes:

1) With this setup your HDMI will be limited to 2-channel audio output since both the TV and the projector are two-channel audio devices. You have a S/PDIF input to the AVR but that will also be limited to DTS / Dolby Digital and 2-channel LPCM. None of the high resolution audio codecs, such as multichannel DTS-HD MA can be sent over S/PDIF.

2) Remember with this level of complexity to work out how you are going to switch the elements. In other words, while sitting in your favorite chair, how do you change all of the inputs without going over to the AVR and switcher and distribution amp.

3) Also don't forget power and cooling. More equipment = more outlets = more power = more heat.

Please "fire away" with more questions if I didn't answer something.

Thank you very much for taking time to help me

I have currently RX-V640RDS which is about 10 years old, but working well. In the first picture I have HDMI splitter which would be used to select if the picture goes to TV or projector. The HDMI input would be selected with AVR and when I want to listen music from HTPC while playing games from console or PC I would choose SPDIF with AVR for audio and HDMI for video. I would just have to buy receiver that can do that.

The Denon is little pricey. I'm not yet sure if I need wireless AVR features for example, so one of the cheapest HDMI AVR's might do the trick for me. Add HDMI splitter to that and I wouldn't even pay half of what that Denon costs. Yes I will buy video card that has HDMI, DVI-I/D and displayport connections so I can use HDMI for AVR and one of the others to PC display.

Does HDMI splitter add delay when switching between input sources in the AVR? All new Yamaha models this year have thing called "High-Speed HDMI Switching". Maybe the difference in the delay between AVR with two HDMI outputs vs those new Yamaha's and HDMI splitter would be similar...

Wouldn't HDMI switcher be enough if I have only one display on at the time?

Yes I'm aware of that. If I would go this route I would keep putting all my blurays on HTPC and convert the HD audio at the same time to DTS/DD 5.1 which SPDIF supports.

I've thought this too. I would have two remotes; AVR remote to switch between audio inputs only and HDMI switcher remote to switch between video inputs only. It would of course be optimal situation if I could do everything with one (AVR) remote, but then there's the problem that most AVR's can't have SPDIF in and HDMI out at the same time which is needed if I want to listen HTPC audio while palying games at the same time.

Yeah power consumption is always in my mind

The key is that you only ever have one input. Then a simple distribution amp (aka splitter) is sufficient. For a switcher to work you would have to unplug the HDMI cable from the switcher each time you wanted to use a different TV. Not recommended and can cause some sources to have handshaking issues.

Onse – Distribution is the norm as that is the way HDMI/HDCP dictates rather than an ‘Output’ Switcher.

You can minimise the delay between switching Input if you ensure all of your source signals are at the same pixel clock and refresh rate (that takes out the Display having to adjust itself) and you can minimise the HDMI/HDCP handshake with Switch gear with ‘fast’ switching chip sets but unless you go very high end/cost it is never going to be as quick as jumping between a pile of composite video signals.

One issue you can run into with a PC/HTPC is the graphics card going to sleep if the PC/HTPC is not the active source into your AVR, Switch, Matrix or DA – you sometime have to install an EDID grabber device between the PC/HTPC to fool the PC into believing a Display is always on its Output!

Joe

Joe's response reminded me that maybe we're not talking the same thing. The first thing to remember is that HDMI is a digital cable. The second thing to remember about HDMI is that there is bi-directional communications going on. So, combine those two items and a simple cable splitter (which may be what you are asking about) won't work. I keep using distribution amp to show that there are active components when the signal is split. If you tried to just use a cable to split the signal (no active component) then that won't work for many reasons - the first that comes to mind is the return signal from the two TVs would get combined creating all sorts of bit errors in that signal.

That may not be what you meant but I wanted to make sure we eliminated a split cable as a splitter from being a possibility.

Unfortunately, HDMI is much more expensive than the "old" analog way of doing things. Much of the pricing has come down in the past year or so, but anything even remotely complicated gets expensive.

So, back to your questions. Remember a distribution amp (active splitter) is a '1 by x' device. So, only one input is allowed into a dist amp. A switch allows multiple inputs but has only one output. A matrix switch has multiple inputs and multiple outputs. It also has the ability to route different input to different outputs.

Most new AVRs have an HDMI switch capability. More expensive models have two outputs. Even more expensive models, that just started to appear this year, have a matrix switch capability. Without an AVR that does this function, in some way, you're going to need to perform that function in a different device. The normal way to do that is with a matrix switcher. I used to run exactly this same way and used a universal remote to make sure the AVR for audio and the matrix switcher for video switched at the same time. All audio was done with S/PDIF with the exception of Blu-Ray which was routed from the BD player's analog 7.1 channel outputs to one of the AVR's 7.1 analog inputs. No loss in audio quality that way (assuming bass management is done correctly). This method worked well with an Octava matrix switcher and kept the AVR going for another three years before I could afford the replacement.

Ok. If I have to unplug cables then switcher is out of the question. So it would be then splitter for HDMI AVR that has one HDMI output or matrix if AVR doesn't have HDMI at all.

By HDMI splitter I mean those powered boxes that have one input and two outputs.

I thought switch can have multiple outputs too. As I need two outputs then switch will not work.

If I go with two display setup it would be TV on the wall and pull down screen in front of it, so I would not need those extra matrix features since only one display is on at the time, but the two outputs is needed.

So either I keep my old receiver and buy 4x2 matrix or I buy new HDMI receiver that can have SPDIF input and HDMI output at the same time and 1x2 HDMI splitter? Updated pictures (now planning to install both HTPC and PC inside the TV stand):

http://i.imgur.com/JIe5R2Q.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uixnZqD.jpg

If I choose the first option, can I use one "universal" remote to switch both SPDIF from the AVR and HDMI from the splitter at the same time with one press of a button?

If I would like to use one remote for both audio and video, something like this would be needed I guess:

http://i.imgur.com/SDhwYBY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bJ2tRHu.jpg

The first remote would change both audio and video when "HDMI" source button is pressed. If I would like to change audio or video only I would need two button presses; When "AUDIO" button is pressed first and then "HDMI" is selected, it would select audio (SPDIF) only from that HDMI source. When "VIDEO" button is pressed and then "HDMI" is selected, it would change the video only, but live the audio as it is.

The second remote would also change both audio and video when "HDMI" source button is pressed. But audio and video would be changed with one button press instead of two by just pressing the individual buttons.

The second remote would also be needed if I choose to keep my old receiver and get matrix (?). The top buttons would change the audio from receiver and HDMI from matrix at the same time. Then I could use the single audio and video buttons to change between individual audio and video source.

Are these scenarios possible/good?
Edited by onse - 3/17/13 at 4:21pm

I understand the first one and that looks like it should work. I only put "should" there because of the small potential for handshaking issues between different brands. Shouldn't happen but it can.

Also remember the lowest common denominator principle. If you buy a matrix switch that doesn't know how to passthrough 3D, for instance, then you will not have 3D even if all of the other equipment is 3D-capable.

The second scenario is still overcomplicated in my (humble) opinion. The small extra cost of an AVR with dual HDMI outputs (check around there are some bargains in this area) far outweigh the complexity of an AVR and a splitter. Again, it should work but is adding a complication for handshaking.

Other than that I think your plans are realistic. I understand the need to go with S/PDIF for the PC outputs although you will find that most new video cards will send audio over HDMI for option #2.

Yes, the only type of switch that will have multiple outputs is a matrix switch (although there may be some speciality switch I don't know about that has dual HDMI outputs).

The 1x2 HDMI DA will Output to one or other or both Display devices without any User intervention – you would simply select which HDMI Source to view on the AVR.

Where you require a Multiple Input/Multiple Output Switch a Matrix is the norm - though some Matrix can be programmed to always keep the Outputs ‘locked’ if you don’t ever require independent sources on Outputs A + B, simplifies your control options doing it this way.

http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI%20matrix%20switch%204x2%20port.html

Joe

1x2 HDMI DA seems to be what I need if I get AVR with only one HDMI output.

In your opinion, would 1x2 HDMI DA work with HDMI AVR well and what kind of extra delay I would be looking when changing the HDMI inputs? Or would AVR with two HDMI outputs be better and faster option?

I'm still waiting answer from Yamaha regarding their new "High-Speed HDMI Switching" and since the cheapest Yamaha would be enough for me otherwise, maybe the cheapest 2013 model (RX-V375) with high speed HDMI and 1x2 HDMI DA would be as fast or faster than 2012 model AVR with two HDMI outputs (RX-V733)?

RX-V733 costs 529€ at the moment.

RX-V375 that was just released costs 299€, but will drop closer to 200€ within next month or two, if it drops as fast as the last years model(s) did: http://i.imgur.com/zHTzLqo.png

RX-V375 would require that 1x2 HDMI DA and I haven't looked up yet how much those cost.

Onkyo TX-NR515 is the cheapest model with two HDMI outputs and it costs 320€. The matrix you linked would cost more than this one.

Denon AVR-2313 is the third cheapest model with two HDMI outputs and it costs 595€. I don't see why I would pay this much since Onkyo is only 320€.

All prices are cheapest prices in Europe including shipping.

So, there are still some questions regarding the HDMI switching speed and what receivers can choose audio input and HDMI at the same time and how convenient it would be vs AVR and matrix setup which is seen in the first picture that I posted earlier.
Edited by onse - 3/18/13 at 2:52am

But isn't AVR with one HDMI output + 1x2 HDMI DA basicly the same thing as AVR with two HDMI outputs? I wouldn't have to touch the HDMI DA at all and I would be choosing the audio and HDMI inputs in the AVR same way in both cases? Or by "overcomplicated" you mean possible issues with the HDMI signal?

Yes, but AVR's can't choose two HDMI inputs at the same time (one for audio and one for video). At least that's what I've been told.

Your missing a lot of the concept of how HDMI works. The communications between devices in an HDMI link involves handshaking between the devices. There really is no such thing as a truely passive HDMI device. Even the basic splitter can add a layer of complexity.

In the simplest form with a source (say a Blu-Ray player) and a sink (say a TV), the TV sends a signal to the source indicating what capabilities the TV has. This includes allowable resolutions, audio capabilities and other optional capabiltiies. The source looks at this information and the source's firmware is designed to allow the source to only send the sink a compatible signal. So, if the sink says it is only a stereo TV then it won't send multichannel audio, for a simple example. The packet that contains this information is called the EDID.

Now when you add the complexity of two outputs with a splitter (dist amp), then you have two sinks both sending EDIDs. Something has to combine those two EDIDs into one that is sent to the source device (or source devices in the case of an matrix switch or AVR). So even a splitter, a very simple device in the analog world, becomes much more complicated with HDMI. This was beyond the original intent of HDMI which was secure non-compressed point-to-point high speed communications.

Your AVR also modifies the EDID and this can be both audio and video. Remember both audio and video are carried in the same data stream. There is no such thing as audio-only or video-only HDMI communications. It may be that the audio is filled with null data but the audio data packet is still there. Also remember that only one stream of audio and one stream of video can be carried on an HDMI cable at any time.

So, do you want a splitter modifying the EDID and then the AVR modifying the EDID again? It adds a layer of complexity that isn't necessary and can lead to not just slower handshaking but (in worse case) no picture at all depending upon the quality of the firmware in all of the devices. The results (and delay times) will vary depending upon how well the components handshake with each other, the capabilities of the chips that perform the handshaking and the quality of the firmware in each device. Unfortunately you won't know this until you purchase the equipment and try them together. The forums are littered with complaints where a piece of equipment will handshake with one device but then attach another and the handshaking stops. Usually a firmware update is required to correct, if the company will provide one.

Also, judging AVRs by just cost is a penny smart / pound foolish method. I know many people who purchase the cheapest AVRs and then get to repurchase the cheapest AVRs again in about a year when the warranty runs out. You might want to check some user reviews before deciding on an AVR.
Edited by alk3997 - 3/18/13 at 7:03am

Does AVR's with two HDMI outputs have same limitations? Is it possible to watch 3D from a projector if I have ARV with two HDMI outputs and one is connected to 3D projector and one is connected to non-3D TV?

I've seen different kind of EDID features in HDMI DA's/splitters but haven't yet looked up what they are for. Maybe some units have features that help with this problem?

I know HDMI carries both audio and video. What I meant earlier with "video only from HDMI" was that the receiver would not play the audio from the HDMI source and only pass the video and play audio from different audio input.

Price is the first and most important thing when you start looking up possible products. I know that I would never pay over 600€ for a receiver. That's why I only included AVR's with two HDMI outputs that cost less than 600€. When you know what your options are in your price range you can start comparing the products more. I'm not looking too much into the reviews yet though since I have to decide first what kind of setup I will get.

By the way, I got confirmation in another forum that Yamaha's 2011 model RX-V371 can pass HDMI while you listen audio from AV input. You can also switch between different HDMI inputs and close the receiver and the AV input for audio will not change. It takes three button presses to change audio to the AV1 I've been told. With Logitech Harmony or similar one could probably use macros so that only one press of a button would be needed.
Edited by onse - 3/18/13 at 5:04pm