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Why don't we use Pro Monitors in our Homes? - Page 8

post #211 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Put 100 engineers (and whatever) in a room for a year and tell them to make the perfect pair of speakers, money no object. Now put 100 more in another room tasked with the same. Take the 2 speakers home and listen to them with some of your favorite material. Not only will they sound different but that they do will be apparent to you fairly quickly.

this is inaccurate.

lots of harman research has identified a handful of characteristics that most everybody agree make a speaker sound "right".

each of the two group may employ different strategies (one may use a five way speaker with lots of drivers, while the other group may use a two-way) but the sound eminating from the speakers will be quite similar.

you may want to read up on the white papers for the specific characterisitcs. this is why the research is so exciting. it correlates subjective impressions from lots of different folks to a handful of characteristics. create a speaker with those characteristics and you have a virtually guaranteed winner.

i'll see if i can dig up a reference or two.
post #212 of 513
here you go:

Loudspeaker Measurements and Their Relationship to Listener Preferences:Part 1*

Loudspeaker Measurements and Their Relationship to Listener Preferences:Part 2*

both by floyd toole from back when he was the

National Research Council, Ottawa, Ont. K1A OR6, Canada

the files are too large for me to attach.

Differences in Performance and Preference of Trained versus Untrained Listeners in Loudspeaker Tests: A Case Study*

Sean E. Olive, AES Fellow

Research & Development Group, Harman International Industries, Inc., Northridge, CA, 91329, USA
post #213 of 513
perhaps as the resident expert on the literature, sean olive could provide ten or fifteen articles that he considers "required reading" for folks interested in the characteristics of loudspeaker performance that correlate best with subjective listening impressions.

this is inextricably related to the op in that any speaker (pro or consumer) that embodies these characteristics will sound "good".

i need to get toole's book too "sound reproduction: loudspeakers and rooms, floyd toole, focal press". preview reading suggests that he is passing on most of his "life lessons". even one lesson from toole would be worth the cost of the book, but we are talking about a leading researcher's life work!
post #214 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

this is inaccurate.

No it isn't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

lots of harman research has identified a handful of characteristics that most everybody agree make a speaker sound "right".

And...............


Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

................but the sound eminating from the speakers will be quite similar.

No, it won't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

it correlates subjective impressions from lots of different folks to a handful of characteristics.

Subjective impressions, huh? OK.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

............create a speaker with those characteristics and you have a virtually guaranteed winner.

I guess that's why we're even posting in this thread. I would venture a guess that there are almost as many different speakers represented by the people in this thread as there are people in this thread. And many of them have had more than one speaker in their home in the last 5 years. Hell, some of them change speakers in a matter of months.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i'll see if i can dig up a reference or two.

No, thanks. YOU keep reading, though. You can tell me what it says. I'll go enjoy the speakers I picked out for myself. Based on subjective impressions, of course.
post #215 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Ewww, I don't like the way those sound.

J/K

But where did you hear them? I bet not in your house. And were they setup properly?
To each his/her own. But I think the PT800s are better than some speakers I've heard, costing much more.
post #216 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

you aren't contributing anything. you are just arguing without making any good points.

I'm not arguing. At all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i was going to say that you have now proved that you are as stupid and as worthless as you look...

...but that would drop me down to your level, so i will refrain.

I see your smilies, but when did I say something like that?
post #217 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

4dhd,

a diy is possible. you could get the le14h-4 driver used in the s4600. in a sealed 1 cubic footer, it has a -3bd of 80hz, which is right on thx spec. the driver is +/-1 up to about 1khz. find a hice horn that works down to about 1khz and you will be all set. if you don't have the time, inclination, or skill to diy, go for the s4600.

I've done my share of diy. Got one pair in this room, in nearfield wall mount.
Never built any with horns though.
post #218 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

But I think the PT800s are better than some speakers I've heard, costing much more.

And that's my point.

(You saw that I was J/K, right?)
post #219 of 513
he did say "just kidding"...
post #220 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

And that's my point.

(You saw that I was J/K, right?)

Actually I missed that.
The PS was JBL's greatest hidden speaker of this decade. Not many have ever heard them, as very few stores around the country sold them.
post #221 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

I've done my share of diy. Got one pair in this room, in nearfield wall mount.
Never built any with horns though.

cool!

not sure if you saw but jbl has a 'k2' that employs aluminum drivers for the mid and top end. appears to be japanese market only.

that drops the entry price significantly and probably kills performance by only a very small amount. i forget what it is called though. it may be another option for a k2 on the cheap or even an inspiration for a diy.

jbl is one of the few remaining companies to champion the two-way (horn/15", more or less). the lansing iconic got it right. ever since, most of audio has been a slow downhill slide.

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/hi...nsing/lmco.htm
(scroll down in order to see the iconic)



(apologies for the large image. it is just linked in from audioheritage.org)
post #222 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

here you go:

Loudspeaker Measurements and Their Relationship to Listener Preferences:Part 1*

Loudspeaker Measurements and Their Relationship to Listener Preferences:Part 2*

both by floyd toole from back when he was the

National Research Council, Ottawa, Ont. K1A OR6, Canada

the files are too large for me to attach.

Differences in Performance and Preference of Trained versus Untrained Listeners in Loudspeaker Tests: A Case Study*

Sean E. Olive, AES Fellow

Research & Development Group, Harman International Industries, Inc., Northridge, CA, 91329, USA

Harman International has arranged free copies of these papers from the AES-E Library. These papers and 13 others written by Harman scientists and engineers can be downloaded for free from the "Scientific Publications" link at the Harman Web site.

I've provided direct links below for the three papers you mentioned:


Loudspeaker Measurements and Their Relationship to Listener Preferences:Part 1*

Loudspeaker Measurements and Their Relationship to Listener Preferences:Part 2*

Differences in Performance and Preference of Trained versus Untrained Listeners in Loudspeaker Tests: A Case Study*

Enjoy!
post #223 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonmeister2008 View Post

Harman International has arranged free copies of these papers from the AES-E Library. These papers and 13 others written by Harman scientists and engineers can be downloaded for free from the "Scientific Publications" link at the Harman Web site.

I've provided direct links below for the three papers you mentioned:


Loudspeaker Measurements and Their Relationship to Listener Preferences:Part 1*

Loudspeaker Measurements and Their Relationship to Listener Preferences:Part 2*

Differences in Performance and Preference of Trained versus Untrained Listeners in Loudspeaker Tests: A Case Study*

Enjoy!
post #224 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

perhaps as the resident expert on the literature, sean olive could provide ten or fifteen articles that he considers "required reading" for folks interested in the characteristics of loudspeaker performance that correlate best with subjective listening impressions.

this is inextricably related to the op in that any speaker (pro or consumer) that embodies these characteristics will sound "good".

i need to get toole's book too "sound reproduction: loudspeakers and rooms, floyd toole, focal press". preview reading suggests that he is passing on most of his "life lessons". even one lesson from toole would be worth the cost of the book, but we are talking about a leading researcher's life work!

FYI: There was a very good review of Floyd's book by Kal Rubinson in last month's Stereophile. The review is now online here
post #225 of 513
Tonmeister2008,

Check out my sig, you may get a kick out of it.

LTD02, I use a 2 way horn with dual 15's and yes, they are JBL's.
post #226 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i thought the parent of mackie, loud, went bankrupt as a result of the downturn in the global economy combined with massive disruptions in its chinese supply chain. do you happen to know if it was a reorg vs. liquidation?

Neither. As far as I know a Chinese supplier went belly up. Loud temporary pulled out of NASDAQ strictly as a protective business move, which is not uncommon. Its a tough market out there today for almost every industry. Its a shame Mackie had to drop US supplier of drivers years ago, many complained, but thats the economics of a "small" company at a time when the market was just starting to squeeze a little bit.

Dr V
post #227 of 513
Sivadselim, do you understand what nonlinear/harmonic distortion is? Do you understand that its presence is a detriment to accuracy? Your implication that two "perfect" loudspeakers would sound different suggests that you do not.
post #228 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by kinguin7 View Post

Your implication that two "perfect" loudspeakers would sound different suggests that you do not.

I think you missed the point.
post #229 of 513
The development of Monitor Speaker Voicing at Lansing Heritage...

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/...or-voicing.htm
post #230 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

jbl is one of the few remaining companies to champion the two-way (horn/15", more or less).

Here is another, Meyer Sound. The X-10, at about $24k each:



I've been intrigued ever since seeing a couple of reviews:

During a recent trip to an audiophile club meeting in the Pacific Northwest, AVRev.com’s resident speaker setup guru Bob Hodas did a demo with Meyers X10 system that left many (if not all) of the audiophiles drooling and proclaiming it to produce the best sound they have every heard. http://www.modernhometheater.com/how...rs/main3.shtml

And:

I have auditioned many state-of-the-art monitoring systems, of all kinds, in some of the best acoustic spaces in the world, so I believe I have a reasonable grasp of what is currently available and considered to be 'the best'. I first auditioned the X10s in a less-than-ideal listening room at the Meyer Sound offices in Berkeley, California, but even there, their phenomenal transparency and accuracy was evident. Subsequent auditioning of a 5.1 installation of X10s in a properly designed control room reinforced these first impressions.

Distortion is simply not an issue with these loudspeakers, at any practical listening level — it is as if the control-room window has been removed and you are listening to the acoustic sound in the studio itself. The X10's astonishing clarity also reveals flaws in recording equipment, techniques and signal processing astonishingly well. By way of a test, I listened to some material processed through a well-known predictive data compression system. This kind of system damages unpredictable parts of signals — mainly transients — and whilst these artefacts usually go unnoticed or are hard to detect on most monitoring systems, they were certainly clearly audible on the X10s.

Stereo imaging and depth is pinpoint sharp, precise and stable over a remarkably wide listening area, and the character of the sound remains absolutely consistent where ever you are in the room. Whether this results from the almost perfect impulse response, the very low distortion, the well controlled off-axis dispersion, or a combination of these I could not tell you. All I know is that it works, and works extremely well. Instruments with naturally wide dynamic ranges and percussive transients are reproduced with breathtaking clarity and naturalness — no other monitoring system I know of reproduces brass instruments with as much fidelity.

The X10 is a most impressive monitor which, through the introduction of significant new technology, redefines the art and science of loudspeaker design. Meyer Sound have repositioned the goal posts for the high end market.
http://www.meyersound.com/news/press/sos_x10_800.htm

http://www.meyersound.com/products/studioseries/x-10/

Haven't heard it myself.
post #231 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

In some implementations, one has a choice of curves, Audyssey, Front and Flat. You can also shut it off.

Craig

Yeah, it drives me nuts....hence my decision to buy the PRO software.
post #232 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

jbl is one of the few remaining companies to champion the two-way (horn/15", more or less).

QSC has several good designs too.

Also Geddes has thrown a big opinion and speaker design out there to say he has done two-way (horn/15") the best way (no horn sound, HOM issues controlled). His Summa designs are raved about by the limited number of people that have heard them. It seems so far that the "Horn" crowd are the only ones to have heard them but on an overall measurements basis they have almost no rivals.

If there was a CD speaker that had the best accuracy then the Summa might be it.

You and I also know we have lots of 2-way horn/15" or 12" DIY efforts (econo-waveguide) and our threads.

2-way designs with waveguides and 12" drivers just seems like the best HT design IMO.
post #233 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

the lansing iconic got it right. ever since, most of audio has been a slow downhill slide.

And kudos to you, sir.
post #234 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Put 100 engineers (and whatever) in a room for a year and tell them to make the perfect pair of speakers, money no object. Now put 100 more in another room tasked with the same. Take the 2 speakers home and listen to them with some of your favorite material. Not only will they sound different but that they do will be apparent to you fairly quickly.

This reminds me of an old hot dog quote I read somewhere a long time ago tied to a discussion of marginal utility. Give one guy $20 and one guy $2,000 and send them both out to get the best hot dog they can. Chances are they'll be similarly satisfying.

I think there would be a lot less arguing about speakers if people could just admit to these two points and be done with it. Value for your budget and buy what you like the sound of.

PS. 4DHD - I think you need to add the 1400 "base" to the PT800's so people who are unfamiliar with them understand the actual system.
post #235 of 513
The process of sending off two engineering teams to design the "perfect speaker" and then having two speakers that might sound different would be a result of people having different thoughts about what is perfect, to say nothing of the fact that we all have different hearing.

If we all had the same hearing then we would only really need to have maybe 3 speakers. And they would be at different price points. So people would buy whichever one they could afford. But each of us would have the same thoughts as to how the three speakers are different and would notice the improvement in SQ going from good to better to best.
post #236 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slare View Post

PS. 4DHD - I think you need to add the 1400 "base" to the PT800's so people who are unfamiliar with them understand the actual system.

Well its just a standard sat/sub system. And at this point in time, there are probably more sat/sub systems in use than full range speakers, considering the HT madness.
Actually I use a pair of SUB1500s, instead of the PS1400s, the SUB1500 goes much lower than the PS1400. The 1500s were built by JBL Pro and designed by Revel for the Ultima Sub 15
post #237 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

The process of sending off two engineering teams to design the "perfect speaker" and then having two speakers that might sound different would be a result of people having different thoughts about what is perfect, to say nothing of the fact that we all have different hearing.

If we all had the same hearing then we would only really need to have maybe 3 speakers. And they would be at different price points. So people would buy whichever one they could afford. But each of us would have the same thoughts as to how the three speakers are different and would notice the improvement in SQ going from good to better to best.

We only need to build one speaker for all people if pure accuracy was actually something people understood and wanted. Each set would be sold with a digital EQ to tweek then to each individuals needs.

Surprisingly people do not care much about accuracy instead they care about individualism, branding, looks and all mighty subjective "Best speaker for the money" review........hence we have lots and lots of brands that do nothing different then each other (sutle changes) but do not tell the owners how close their speakers are to other brands, they crave individualism and they take that sutle changes and make it the mountain that no one else can conquer

Your point about the "perfect" speaker is an interesting one. I would believe a speaker that is has a perfect polar response, best distortion/impedance measurements would be defined as "perfect" but your post would indicated someone else would think different.
post #238 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Your point about the "perfect" speaker is an interesting one. I would believe a speaker that is has a perfect polar response, best distortion/impedance measurements would be defined as "perfect" but your post would indicated someone else would think different.

What is "perfect" polar response?

Craig
post #239 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

this is inaccurate.

lots of harman research has identified a handful of characteristics that most everybody agree make a speaker sound "right".

each of the two group may employ different strategies (one may use a five way speaker with lots of drivers, while the other group may use a two-way) but the sound eminating from the speakers will be quite similar.

you may want to read up on the white papers for the specific characterisitcs. this is why the research is so exciting. it correlates subjective impressions from lots of different folks to a handful of characteristics. create a speaker with those characteristics and you have a virtually guaranteed winner.

i'll see if i can dig up a reference or two.

He has been saying the statement you have quoted several times in differently worded form for several post now and everyone has told him his views/theories are innacurate several times.
post #240 of 513
...If you like the sound and don't mind the appearance.

I love my Mackie HR624 MkII's.

They image better than any "Hi-Fi" speaker I've ever had.

And my Denon 3808CI runs cooler too.

--M--
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