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Antimode 8033 - Page 15

post #421 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If you click on the AudiogoN forum link, at the top of the table, in the preamble, can be found this comment:

" Keep in mind that these corrections are only valid under the following conditions. The meter must be set to C weighting, using 1/3 octave pink noise (easily available from various CDs), with the mic pointed at the speaker."

Hopefully this comment answers your question. Personally, I'm not worried too much by a dB or three of error but I am worried sufficiently that when I have the spare change, I'd like to buy the sound meter package I linked to. Until then, I'm good with what ever shows on my sound meter screen.

-
Thanks for the "preamble".
post #422 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Thanks for the "preamble".

biggrin.gif
post #423 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

It's more a question of the best route to take my system from its present state.

It's almost time to retire my 15 year old Lexicon DC-1. I have a couple options: stay with Lexicon (and use an anti-mode device) or move to a pre/pro that includes Audyssey XT32 and have it all in one box.

I really have become accustomed to the Lexicon sound and fear, even though it is aged, that I will not be as happy with the surround processing of any other manufacturer that supports Audyssey. The Denon AVP sounds like something I would like to try, but, it is at a price that is out of my budget.

I am leaning towards a used Lexicon MC-8 + an automatic Bass EQ device like the Anti-Mode. I don't have the interest or time to purchase and learn how to use measurement equipment and manually EQ my bass.

BTW; Thanks to all who have supported this thread. It has provided me with a lot of reading material and useful information to help me with my decision.

I owned a DC-1 for a few years back in the late '90s early '00s and loved the sound of it. Due to financial reasons, I had to sell the DC-1 and downgrade to an entry level AVR for a few years. I recently (1 month ago) upgraded to the (admittedly modest compared to Lexicon) Denon 2113ci. I still have the exact same speakers I had back in the Lexicon days, and all I can say is that today's AVRs simply blow away anything from that time. Finally being able to hear the uncompressed, discrete audio from Blu Rays is a revelation in and of itself. That being said, I'm sure the current crop of Lexicons are a great option if you've got the money, but even today's mid-level AVRs will blow the DC-1 out of the water sound-quality-wise.

Also, before you purchase any outboard auto EQ device, run the auto calibration (Audyssey, etc.) on whatever AVR/pre-pro you decide to buy and only then decide whether or not it is even needed.

P.S. The outdated MC-8 doesn't support today's multichannel formats (DTS-MA, Dolby-HD) nor does it have HDMI switching and is only 5.1. Not even an option IMO.
post #424 of 554
With the Rat Shack spl meter, speakers calibrate at 75 DB and subs at 72-73 DB.
post #425 of 554
^^^

Judging by the differing opinions I've read in the subwoofer section of AVS, this is very debatable. biggrin.gif
post #426 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

With the Rat Shack spl meter, speakers calibrate at 75 DB and subs at 72-73 DB.
Did you do this with AVR internal test tone?
post #427 of 554
^^^

Yup.
post #428 of 554
Took the plunge and ordered 8033S-2 direct from VLSI for 349 EUR ($472 USD). Hope it's worth it, that's a lot of dough for a such a small box.
post #429 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

Took the plunge and ordered 8033S-2 direct from VLSI for 349 EUR ($472 USD). Hope it's worth it, that's a lot of dough for a such a small box.

If you haven't already, if I might encourage, you should download REW or order an "OmniMic" kit. I have the Anti-ModeS II and you won't get the best out of the Anti-Mode unit if your subs are not properly dialed into your room's acoustics.

How much does polish add to the looks of a freshly washed car? What does a freshly washed car look like without polish and what does it look like with polish? That's the difference one can reasonably expect out of the addition of an Anti-Mode, 8033S II. Is it worth it? That's a subjective question in that, one has to ask, how much do they value quality subwoofer output? The answer to that question will answer the question, is it worth it or not.

My opinion, on its face, I can't say it's worth it but when you take into consideration, combined with Audyssey, MultEQ XT, the polish an 8033S II puts on the final subwoofer output......well, we'll just say I'm in no hurry to be selling my unit. But on the other hand, I'm currently exploring a MiniDSP appliance to see what benefit can be had by acquiring and installing one of these little added on DSP's.

In the end, it's a subjective tilting with Quixotic, sonic windmills. A never ending individual sojourn trying to find the sonic holy grail while tied to the outside of the great white whale. Somebody hep me. tongue.gif

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/4/13 at 4:42pm
post #430 of 554
BeeMan, I'd like to install REW on my computer so I can see the frequency response with AntiMode, but I don't want to run cables from the PC to my preamp or sub to generate the required test signals. Can't I just play the Subwoofer Sweep Test from a calibration disc and fore-go the cables?

Also, I want to use my RS SPL meter for the test. Now, I've heard a lot on this site and others about mic calibration and the Shack meter also needing some correction. Is this something anyone can do?

I plan to test the AntiMode right away with the "The Dark Knight Rises," Blu-ray disc. The bass in the opening scene is quite a challenge for the subs in my room. If AntiMode can tame standing waves as advertised, I should hear a big improvement in my setup during this scene.
post #431 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I have the Anti-ModeS II and you won't get the best out of the Anti-Mode unit if your subs are not properly dialed into your room's acoustics
I'm sure many people are not able to place their subwoofers at the perfect spot due to WAF issue. That's why we need Antimode. It's better than nothing.
post #432 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

BeeMan, I'd like to install REW on my computer so I can see the frequency response with AntiMode, but I don't want to run cables from the PC to my preamp or sub to generate the required test signals. Can't I just play the Subwoofer Sweep Test from a calibration disc and fore-go the cables?

I don't know. If doing a real time analysis (RTA), you're fine. But part of the REW measurement phase includes playing an included sweep so everything is automatically integrated; playing sweep/recording sweep/analyzing results of recorded sweep/graphing results of everything else that came before/additional graphing capability. The point, REW is comprehensive with what it does with the recorded information. In my opinion, one is seriously shortchanging REW by trying to change what REW does. Why the resistance to running the cables? If like the rest of us, with WAF towards cables, we set up, do our sweeps, break the system down, give the wife time to get over it and repeat. What good's a relationship that doesn't have good old fashion dynamics in it? tongue.gif

Quote:
Also, I want to use my RS SPL meter for the test. Now, I've heard a lot on this site and others about mic calibration and the Shack meter also needing some correction. Is this something anyone can do?

If you can connect the RS sound meter to your system, there's no reason you can't use it. From reading about specifications for other sound meters, other then it's frequency limited to, I think 31.5Hz, it will do fine. Below is more information on the matter.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=38765

"Weighting: The weighting affects how sensitive the microphone will be over a given frequency range. It lets you choose between Weighted A and C measurements. “A-Weighting” reduces the frequency response of the SPL meter to the 500Hz - 10,000Hz range, where human ears are more sensitive, while the “C-Weighting” will make the meter respond to the frequency range from 32Hz to 10,000Hz. For Home Theater use, the wider C-Weighting is recommended."

Obviously, we need to be able to measure will below this limit. Hence the need for a recording microphone with better capabilities.

Quote:
I plan to test the AntiMode right away with the "The Dark Knight Rises," Blu-ray disc. The bass in the opening scene is quite a challenge for the subs in my room. If AntiMode can tame standing waves as advertised, I should hear a big improvement in my setup during this scene.

I don't know if I can say that it will tame standing waves as our room has naturally occurring standing waves and there's nothing Anti-Mode can do to correct for this waves. You won't become aware of these naturally occurring standing waves until you get REW up and running.

.....................................................................

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

I'm sure many people are not able to place their subwoofers at the perfect spot due to WAF issue. That's why we need Antimode. It's better than nothing.

Yes, the WAF is a powerful force indeed. As I type these words this force is all around me.

Forgive me for my insistence but from personal experience, if the subs are not properly integrated, the Anti-Mode is not worth the price. As an owner and fan of Anti-Mode, I'd rather someone acquire room analyzing capabilities/skllis first and do the best they can integrating their subs into their room's acoustics. This includes familiarizing themselves with getting the best out of parametric settings; phase, LPF settings on both the sub and the AVR, gain controls in the AVR and on the Sub, placement issues as a foot or two will make major differences. One should learn about how acoustical room measurements benefits by using asymmetrical settings and one needs to take their time to explore time domain issues. After doing this, one will gain the most benefit from their Anti-Mode. See the Anti-Mode unit as polish and if seen in this light, one will get the best out of their subwoofer system. If done the other way around where the Anti-mode is installed without aid of a room analyzing program and room integration efforts, my opinion, they've thrown their money away and more often then not, will be disappointed in the results Anti-Mode provides.

Those are my honest, personal feelings on the matter based on personal efforts. If someone thinks I'm wrong in my above, then I encourage them to ignore my above, buy and install a Anti-Mode unit in their sonic chain and I hope they'll have a nice subwoofer based life. smile.gif

My plans are, after I finish exploring the DSPeaker, Anti-Mode, to explore the MiniDSP and it's ability to integrate with REW. Personally, I'm not convinced that Anti-Mode is giving me the best my system has to offer.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/5/13 at 9:07am
post #433 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

BeeMan, I'd like to install REW on my computer so I can see the frequency response with AntiMode, but I don't want to run cables from the PC to my preamp or sub to generate the required test signals. Can't I just play the Subwoofer Sweep Test from a calibration disc and fore-go the cables?

Also, I want to use my RS SPL meter for the test. Now, I've heard a lot on this site and others about mic calibration and the Shack meter also needing some correction. Is this something anyone can do?

I plan to test the AntiMode right away with the "The Dark Knight Rises," Blu-ray disc. The bass in the opening scene is quite a challenge for the subs in my room. If AntiMode can tame standing waves as advertised, I should hear a big improvement in my setup during this scene.

In order for REW to work correctly and for you to trust your measurements, you must calibrate it to your system and use the sweep it generates - no way around this with REW. If don't want to run cables, there's always OmniMic.

The Rat Shack meter will do OK as a mic (I've used mine), but can't be trusted on the extreme low or high end of the sweep. There is a generic calibration file for it available on the REW forum.
post #434 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

I'm sure many people are not able to place their subwoofers at the perfect spot due to WAF issue. That's why we need Antimode. It's better than nothing.


I threw the better half out a long time ago (she made me return my tower speakers at The Wiz) so there's room for placement. And it seems like a great alternative to gigantic bass traps.
post #435 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


Yes, the WAF is a powerful force indeed. As I type these words this force is all around me.

-

Hilarious!
post #436 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I don't know. If doing a real time analysis (RTA), you're fine. But part of the REW measurement phase includes playing an included sweep so everything is automatically integrated; playing sweep/recording sweep/analyzing results of recorded sweep/graphing results of everything else that came before/additional graphing capability. The point, REW is comprehensive with what it does with the recorded information. In my opinion, one is seriously shortchanging REW by trying to change what REW does. Why the resistance to running the cables? If like the rest of us, with WAF towards cables, we set up, do our sweeps, break the system down, give the wife time to get over it and repeat. What good's a relationship that doesn't have good old fashion dynamics in it? tongue.gif

If you can connect the RS sound meter to your system, there's no reason you can't use it. From reading about specifications for other sound meters, other then it's frequency limited to, I think 31.5Hz, it will do fine. Below is more information on the matter.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=38765

"Weighting: The weighting affects how sensitive the microphone will be over a given frequency range. It lets you choose between Weighted A and C measurements. “A-Weighting” reduces the frequency response of the SPL meter to the 500Hz - 10,000Hz range, where human ears are more sensitive, while the “C-Weighting” will make the meter respond to the frequency range from 32Hz to 10,000Hz. For Home Theater use, the wider C-Weighting is recommended."

Obviously, we need to be able to measure will below this limit. Hence the need for a recording microphone with better capabilities.
I don't know if I can say that it will tame standing waves as our room has naturally occurring standing waves and there's nothing Anti-Mode can do to correct for this waves. You won't become aware of these naturally occurring standing waves until you get REW up and running.

.....................................................................
Yes, the WAF is a powerful force indeed. As I type these words this force is all around me.

Forgive me for my insistence but from personal experience, if the subs are not properly integrated, the Anti-Mode is not worth the price. As an owner and fan of Anti-Mode, I'd rather someone acquire room analyzing capabilities/skllis first and do the best they can integrating their subs into their room's acoustics. This includes familiarizing themselves with getting the best out of parametric settings; phase, LPF settings on both the sub and the AVR, gain controls in the AVR and on the Sub, placement issues as a foot or two will make major differences. One should learn about how acoustical room measurements benefits by using asymmetrical settings and one needs to take their time to explore time domain issues. After doing this, one will gain the most benefit from their Anti-Mode. See the Anti-Mode unit as polish and if seen in this light, one will get the best out of their subwoofer system. If done the other way around where the Anti-mode is installed without aid of a room analyzing program and room integration efforts, my opinion, they've thrown their money away and more often then not, will be disappointed in the results Anti-Mode provides.

Those are my honest, personal feelings on the matter based on personal efforts. If someone thinks I'm wrong in my above, then I encourage them to ignore my above, buy and install a Anti-Mode unit in their sonic chain and I hope they'll have a nice subwoofer based life. smile.gif

My plans are, after I finish exploring the DSPeaker, Anti-Mode, to explore the MiniDSP and it's ability to integrate with REW. Personally, I'm not convinced that Anti-Mode is giving me the best my system has to offer.

-

It's not the cables, per se. It's pulling out the equipment from the cabinet. Just too much work. But I have downloaded the manual and started reading. Who knows, maybe one Saturday when I'm off....
Edited by Pres2play - 2/10/13 at 10:29am
post #437 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

In order for REW to work correctly and for you to trust your measurements, you must calibrate it to your system and use the sweep it generates - no way around this with REW. If don't want to run cables, there's always OmniMic.

The Rat Shack meter will do OK as a mic (I've used mine), but can't be trusted on the extreme low or high end of the sweep. There is a generic calibration file for it available on the REW forum.

Thanks, Alan. Would you say REW is similar to working with SMS-1?
post #438 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


I don't know if I can say that it will tame standing waves as our room has naturally occurring standing waves and there's nothing Anti-Mode can do to correct for this waves. You won't become aware of these naturally occurring standing waves until you get REW up and running.
-

I thought one of the benefits of the Antimode over the Velodyne SMS-1, was its ability make corrections in the Time Domain, and hence treat room modes.
post #439 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

Thanks, Alan. Would you say REW is similar to working with SMS-1?

I've never used it so can't comment, sorry. I'm a relative noob to room measurement, so take my advice with a grain of salt. wink.gif
post #440 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

It's not the cables, per say. It's pulling out the equipment from the cabinet. Just too much work. But I have downloaded the manual and started reading. Who knows, maybe one Saturday when I'm off....

Do you have front panel inputs on your AVR?
post #441 of 554
I have the new Oppo BDP-105 Blu-ray player. It goes analogue direct to the amps. No AVR. In front, I have USB 2.0 input and MHL-Compatible HDMI. Will either of these work?

And, hey, any tips running REW is much appreciated.
post #442 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

It's not the cables, per say. It's pulling out the equipment from the cabinet. Just too much work.

An anecdote. I had a service truck when in business years ago. I'm now retired. I burned up clutches like there was no tomorrow. I got the tools, back up pressure plate, disk and fly wheel. In the end, I was so proficient at pulling this system, I could have the fly wheel on the ground in twenty minutes. Since all needed gear was on hand, after a short break, everything was put back in, up and running inside of two hours. As I traveled, I had the pressure plate and flywheel turned/rebuilt and purchased a new disk so the next time things needed to be replaced, it was once again, nothing more than a two hour session and done.

The point, the first couple of times, yes, it's a pain but after awhile, you'll be so proficient, you'll have things up and running inside of twenty minutes.
post #443 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

I thought one of the benefits of the Antimode over the Velodyne SMS-1, was its ability make corrections in the Time Domain, and hence treat room modes.

Can't say about the SMS-1 but my understanding of the Anti-Mode is, it doesn't do time domain. Reading from the Anti-Mode manual, there is some time that can be added but not needed to compensate for processing delay of about three feet or 3ms but no time domain correction.
post #444 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


Can't say about the SMS-1 but my understanding of the Anti-Mode is, it doesn't do time domain. Reading from the Anti-Mode manual, there is some time that can be added but not needed to compensate for processing delay of about three feet or 3ms but no time domain correction.

All filters have both amplitude and time parameters.  The issue is whether when targetting one of them the user is aware of and in control of the other.

 

Also, the anti-mode adds that time latency of necessity and it is up to the user to add it to the other channels (or not).

post #445 of 554
^^^

Good to know. Thanks.

I will have to re-read the SMS-1 manual and see where time parameters is discussed.
post #446 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

An anecdote. I had a service truck when in business years ago. I'm now retired. I burned up clutches like there was no tomorrow. I got the tools, back up pressure plate, disk and fly wheel. In the end, I was so proficient at pulling this system, I could have the fly wheel on the ground in twenty minutes. Since all needed gear was on hand, after a short break, everything was put back in, up and running inside of two hours. As I traveled, I had the pressure plate and flywheel turned/rebuilt and purchased a new disk so the next time things needed to be replaced, it was once again, nothing more than a two hour session and done.

The point, the first couple of times, yes, it's a pain but after awhile, you'll be so proficient, you'll have things up and running inside of twenty minutes.

I'll give it a try soon. I'm reading the manual, checking my soundcard.

I received confirmation my order has shipped. Nice:D
post #447 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Can't say about the SMS-1 but my understanding of the Anti-Mode is, it doesn't do time domain. Reading from the Anti-Mode manual, there is some time that can be added but not needed to compensate for processing delay of about three feet or 3ms but no time domain correction.
Antimode does time-domain correction.
Quote:
The Golden Ear awarded Anti-Mode™ technology eliminates the resonances of the speaker and the room by equalizing both amplitude and time domain responses using very accurate digital signal processing filter structures and anti-phasing technology.
http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/anti-mode-8033.shtml
post #448 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

I received confirmation my order has shipped. Nice:D

.....biggrin.gif
post #449 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

^^^

Good to know. Thanks.

I will have to re-read the SMS-1 manual and see where time parameters is discussed.

Ah but they don't discuss it at all.  Although they only give you the tools for amplitude/frequency/Q, those will effect time domain changes as well.  To develop the filters for time and magnitude which you can implement in the SMS-1, you need to use REW, XTZ or some other tool.

post #450 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Antimode does time-domain correction.

ttp://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/anti-mode-8033.shtml

Thanks! I stand corrected. One caveat, what DSPeaker shows on their website does not reflect my personally measured experience as to spectral decays and the degree that peaks are shown to be mitigated. Just saying.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/6/13 at 10:08am
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