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*OFFICIAL* Denon AVR 2310CI / 890 Owner's Thread - Page 220

post #6571 of 7033
1/7/12 at 3:21pm
^^
To help jump start you ... I went back to the main Amps, Receivers, and Processors page and used the "Search This Forum" button (note difference then when in individual thread and it says "Search This Thread"). I entered the words "Denon ATI 4650" and selected "Show Posts" vice "Show Threads" and came up with the following post which indicates 4XXX series don't play nice with XX12 models and likely the same with XX10 as well. He also indicates the Nvidia card he replaced the 4650 with.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post20851578
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post #6572 of 7033
1/9/12 at 11:05am
You da man JD!! This is exactly what I'm looking for! This will now save me a lot of time pulling out my hair trying to figure this out! I'm going to check in quick with Futurecode and probably deep-six the ATI card!! Thanks!!!!!
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post #6573 of 7033
1/11/12 at 7:46pm
I have been using my AVR to play ripped blurays from my MacBook Pro. I play the movie on VLC and connect the computer to the AVR via HDMI. The AVR says "MULTI CH IN".

1. How do I make sure it is playing the first audio track on the ripped file?

2. Can I still select a surround mode on the AVR, or is that done automatically based on the audio track that is being played? That is to say, is the surround mode the same thing as the audio track? E.g. Most blurays I ripped use the DTS audio track but I want to make sure I don't need to actually select the surround mode on the AVR...

3. Should I use HDMI for audio or optical?
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post #6574 of 7033
1/12/12 at 4:24am
^^
The AVR says "MULT CH IN" because the Macbook Pro is decoding the audio or it was decoded before it was ripped to PCM.

1. Check on Macbook Pro.
2. The track and surround mode are two different things, however, if you only have a 5.1 setup, you're good to go with MULT CH IN.
3. If only lossy DD/DTS then doesn't matter, otherwise if HD audio then HDMI.
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post #6575 of 7033
1/12/12 at 4:28am
From what I understand there's no difference if the AVR or the computer decodes the audio?

Why does it not matter with a 5.1 setup (right now I am 5.1 sans the sub).

So HDMI will do all the sound (at the best quality) that I want? In other words, no reason to use optical from my computer?

Basically, what I want to make sure is I am getting the best HD Audio sound that is available....
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post #6576 of 7033
1/12/12 at 4:36am
^^
Correct. Doesn't matter which device decodes.

With a 5.0/5.1 setup there's nothing to simulate (ie no surround mode to use) as there would be when receiving a 5.1 signal with a 7.1 setup.

Correct. Use HDMI.
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post #6577 of 7033
1/12/12 at 4:50am
So, all those HD audio codecs do is simulate extra channels beyond 5.1? I understand a bluray only has one HD audio codec, so if my AVR says MULTI CH IN and my computer is indeed playing that audio stream, then I am getting whichever codec it is, correct?

What is the AC-3 format? How does it relate to surround modes?

Thank you.
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post #6578 of 7033
1/12/12 at 4:59am
^^
No. A codec doesn't simulate anything, rather it simply describes the type of file (DD or DTS being a compression codec). A BD can have either a 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1 audio track. When it gets decoded/decompressed it becomes a PCM file so the AVR has no idea what the original compression codec was and therefore simply sees it as a multi channel file. A BD that has an HD audio track will also have the lossy track as well, so as long as you selected the HD audio track when you ripped it, then yes, you are getting the same HD audio as was on the BD when the AVR reads MULT CH IN, otherwise you are getting the lossy DD/DTS (non HD) audio track.

AC-3 is just another name for Dolby Digital.
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post #6579 of 7033
1/12/12 at 5:02am
I'm confused then, what is a surround mode? I thought one surround mode is on a bluray disc e.g., DD, DTS-HD, TrueHD etc... if the audio is sent via PCM, what happens to that? As a result, the audio that is played is just 5.1 discrete channels (in a 5.1 setup)???
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post #6580 of 7033
1/12/12 at 5:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by phie View Post

I'm confused then, what is a surround mode? I thought one surround mode is on a bluray disc e.g., DD, DTS-HD, TrueHD etc... if the audio is sent via PCM, what happens to that? As a result, the audio that is played is just 5.1 discrete channels (in a 5.1 setup)???

Hi phie, I think it would be quite difficult to give you a condensed reply on your issue, but here's a good material recommended for reading: http://forum.blu-ray.com/audio-theor...io-codecs.html
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post #6581 of 7033
1/12/12 at 5:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi phie, I think it would be quite difficult to give you a condensed reply on your issue, but here's a good material recommended for reading: http://forum.blu-ray.com/audio-theor...io-codecs.html

+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by phie View Post

I'm confused then, what is a surround mode? I thought one surround mode is on a bluray disc e.g., DD, DTS-HD, TrueHD etc... if the audio is sent via PCM, what happens to that? As a result, the audio that is played is just 5.1 discrete channels (in a 5.1 setup)???

If the above article didn't explain it to you then here's some more .....

Here's the thing ... a "codec" can be used to describe a "surround mode" (eg. DD or DTS), however, it doesn't necessarily work the other way around (eg. one of Denon's DSP simulation surround modes ...see p. 47 in your owner's manual). A BD generally has several different codecs to include the standard/lossy DD or DTS as well as the HD lossless DD or DTS as I explained previously. In order for the AVR to play the audio track it must be decompressed to the original audio file (PCM, just like unzipping a computer file) by either the source or the AVR (doesn't matter). At that point the 5.1 audio track is 5.1 discrete channels. With a 7.1 setup you could then simulate 7.1 audio using either of the following surround modes: DD PLIIx (rear surround) or DD PLIIz (front height).
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post #6582 of 7033
1/12/12 at 6:28am
I'm going to read that page when I wake up, but I just wanted to ask one question before I go to sleep: So a surround mode is not a "mode" in the sense of DPL2, all it is a way to have 5.1 discrete channels (or 7.1, etc) of the original sound, as produced? That is, the surround mode does not utilize an algorithm to "interpret" the sound as recorded in each discrete channel during filming/production, unlike DPL2, Denon DSP simulations, etc, which all rely on some algorithm to make the sound "better" by way of "interpreting" the source.

I think I've got this (it was very simple as the answer usually is)...
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post #6583 of 7033
1/12/12 at 6:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by phie View Post

I'm going to read that page when I wake up, but I just wanted to ask one question before I go to sleep: So a surround mode is not a "mode" in the sense of DPL2, all it is a way to have 5.1 discrete channels (or 7.1, etc) of the original sound, as produced? That is, the surround mode does not utilize an algorithm to "interpret" the sound as recorded in each discrete channel during filming/production, unlike DPL2, Denon DSP simulations, etc, which all rely on some algorithm to make the sound "better" by way of "interpreting" the source.

I think I've got this (it was very simple as the answer usually is)...

On the 2310 you can't select a listening mode if the input signal is DD or DTS (any flavor), but the avr defaults to it (see your display). The only exception on the 2310 is DPLIIz for the front heights (just to add to the confusion). Your (our) display will show either "Dolby Digital + DPLIIz" or "DTS + DPLIIz".

Now, with my Denon DBP-1611 UD universal player when I play an SACD disk the 2310 does not decode the DSD code of an SACD, but it's done by the player. How do I know I'm listening to the multi-channel hi-res layer of the SACD disk and not the low-res 2 ch stereo layer?

1. The display on the 2310 shows: "MULTI CH IN"
2. All the input indicators on the left side are lit.

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post #6584 of 7033
1/12/12 at 9:39am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by phie View Post

So a surround mode is not a "mode" in the sense of DPL2, all it is a way to have 5.1 discrete channels (or 7.1, etc) of the original sound, as produced? That is, the surround mode does not utilize an algorithm to "interpret" the sound as recorded in each discrete channel during filming/production, unlike DPL2, Denon DSP simulations, etc, which all rely on some algorithm to make the sound "better" by way of "interpreting" the source.

no, not quite right yet -- a "surround mode" could be either one.

it all depends on the number of INPUT CHANNELS relative to how many SPEAKERS (output) you have.

if you have a 5.1 speaker layout, and the signal comes in as 2ch (stereo), then the receiver needs to do some processing to expand the 2ch to 5.1ch audio. Thus, you would select a surround mode like PLII to matrix 2.0 into 5.1.... or you could play it "as is" by selecting stereo mode.

if a signal comes in as 5.1 (e.g. Dolby TrueHD 5.1 off a Blu-ray), and you have a 5.1 speaker layout, there is nothing to do, so the surround mode will just be a "straight" decoding of the audio signal and the receiver will play 5.1 signal on 5.1 speakers, and the display will say "Dolby TrueHD".

for people who have layouts greater than 5.1 (e.g. a 7.1 system), then they could additionally use surround modes which take that 5.1 signal and create back surrounds to make it 7.1 (e.g. Dolby TrueHD + PLIIx).

does that make more sense?
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post #6585 of 7033
1/13/12 at 12:59am
Yes it does, thank you! See, I was under the impression that when you play a movie, there are a bunch of surround modes to choose from and you had to listen to figure out what the best is. The problem is, I don't know enough to be that discernable. So I was worried that I would be getting subpar sound if I picked the wrong surround mode.


I do realize some movies may have more than one surround mode, but not typically and I think I'll just let the AVR decide.

Do a lot of people use DPL2 for old TV shows? I like watching TV shows from the 90s and most are stereo... I wasn't that impressed with how they sounded...
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post #6586 of 7033
1/13/12 at 10:15am
Thread Starter 
Quote:


See, I was under the impression that when you play a movie, there are a bunch of surround modes to choose from and you had to listen to figure out what the best is.

not sure what equipment you've had in the past but this may be due to some brands' emphasis on "DSP modes" where they overlay ambiance or reverb to change the acoustic "space" of your room. For example Yamaha has all sorts of "Cinema DSP" modes that you can overlay on the soundtrack.

Denon has more of a "purist" slant and the DSP modes are real token relics of the past like "Jazz Hall" and "Rock Concert" which are basically useless at this point. Basically, if it's a multich signal, you just decode it and play it.

now, there ARE other things you can "layer" on top like Audyssey room correction, Dynamic EQ loudness correction, etc. but they aren't really "surround modes" per se, they are post processing that goes on top of whatever surround mode you are using.

Quote:


I do realize some movies may have more than one surround mode, but not typically and I think I'll just let the AVR decide.

just to be nitpicky, movies don't have surround modes -- the surround mode is the OUTPUT that the receiver provides, whereas the movies has an audio track that provides the INPUT SIGNAL to the processor. So a movie will have multiple audio tracks (e.g. a DTS-MASTER hi def track and a standard Dolby Digital track for English, plus other languages) and the receiver will pick the correct surround mode based on the track you select.

you aren't bound by that surround mode (it is just the default) so you could, if you wanted, play a 5.1 Dolby Digital track in STEREO surround mode, or even JAZZ HALL if you were feeling frisky. But the point is that, for a multichannel signal, the DEFAULT surround mode will "match" the input signal type as far as what you see on the display (e.g. a Dolby TrueHD input signal will default to DOLBY TRUEHD for the surround mode, which means the "straight" decoding of the signal).

with any multich track, this "default" is what you want to use. The only exception would be as I note above, if you have MORE than 5.1 speakers you may then layer another surround mode to generate the extra speakers (e.g. applying PLIIx to a 5.1 signal to create back surrounds for 7.1). But, as a general rule, if the input signal matches your speaker layout, you just want to play it "straight" as is.

Quote:


Do a lot of people use DPL2 for old TV shows? I like watching TV shows from the 90s and most are stereo... I wasn't that impressed with how they sounded...

really a personal preference thing, I use PLII Cinema for all 2ch movies and TV broadcasts, because I'd rather watch in 5.1, but some people dislike the "fake surround" and prefer to just watch them in native STEREO when the signal is 2ch.
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post #6587 of 7033
1/14/12 at 9:22am
I have no sound from my surround back speaker (using only one).
It is connected to the surround back "L" terminal. Amp assign is "normal".
Is this the correct set up?
The speaker works fine if connected to another terminal, so I do not have a speaker problem.
I have done a tone test and adjusted the "volume" with no success.
Did a search of the Thread and could not find this exact problem.
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post #6588 of 7033
1/14/12 at 9:26am
^^
S.Back - 1sp (p. 29)
Surround Back - (p. 49)
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post #6589 of 7033
1/14/12 at 6:35pm
Thanks for all your help. I do think I understand. I wasn't coming from any equipment before my Denon-- in July I bought my first TV in 10 years and my first AVR and distinct speakers ever. There is a high learning curve and I don't understand as much as I need to, but I am really enjoying the end result (watching movies and rediscovering them when I hear them in 5 channels, and hearing much more than I ever have in my favorite music due to my Ascend speakers).

Quote:


if you wanted, play a 5.1 Dolby Digital track in STEREO surround mode

So if you hit STEREO on the AVR, you'd get the 5.1 DD track mixed into stereo?
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post #6590 of 7033
1/14/12 at 9:25pm
Err... how come I hear dialog out of the front left and right speakers (and sometimes the surrounds) as well as the center? I was watching TV via an HD antenna and both Dolby Digital and DPL2 broadcasts had dialog out of all speakers (I even heard other noises besides dialog out of the center)?

I checked in the back of my AVR and it looks like the right wire goes into the center speaker input...

It also happens on 5.1 soundtrack movies. My front panel display shows F, R, C, SL, SR on the right side...

I checked the setting and couldn't find anything relevant.

I'm sure it's something little, what am I doing wrong?

Thanks!
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post #6591 of 7033
1/14/12 at 9:36pm
Thread Starter 
are you in multich stereo mode?
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post #6592 of 7033
1/14/12 at 9:38pm
How do I know? I thought the mode I am on shows up on the AVR and it said Dolby Digital or PLII when I was watching TV. When I watch a movie through my computer, it says MULT CH IN.
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post #6593 of 7033
1/14/12 at 9:44pm
Thread Starter 
you can check the current surround mode on the display (front of the unit itself) or by going into the GUI into the INFORMATION section, check Audio Input Signal and it will tell you what is coming in (input signal) and what is going out (surround mode).

if you are in a "standard" surround mode like dolby digital, dts surround, dolby plii cinema, etc. then what you hearing is what is in the soundtrack. That's why I asked about multich stereo, because it would "artifically" broadcast sound to the surrounds that wasn't supposed to be there.
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post #6594 of 7033
1/14/12 at 9:56pm
I checked and it said the surround mode I was in was Dolby Digital.

I thought the center channel was responsible for dialog and nothing else? So how come it wasn't behaving that way? Is it common for a DD broadcast to have dialog out of every speaker?

I feel I have done something wrong...
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post #6595 of 7033
1/14/12 at 10:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:


I thought the center channel was responsible for dialog and nothing else?

not necessarily

especially with TV broadcasts, you can never be sure how it was mixed. Put on a good Blu-ray movie that is well known for having a nice soundtrack, that is the best "reference" to check if your system is sounding right.
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post #6596 of 7033
1/14/12 at 10:11pm
hrm, so how do i know if something is screwed up on my end?
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post #6597 of 7033
1/15/12 at 3:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by phie View Post

Err... how come I hear dialog out of the front left and right speakers (and sometimes the surrounds) as well as the center? I was watching TV via an HD antenna and both Dolby Digital and DPL2 broadcasts had dialog out of all speakers (I even heard other noises besides dialog out of the center)?

I checked in the back of my AVR and it looks like the right wire goes into the center speaker input...

It also happens on 5.1 soundtrack movies. My front panel display shows F, R, C, SL, SR on the right side...

I checked the setting and couldn't find anything relevant.

I'm sure it's something little, what am I doing wrong?

Thanks!

The center channel isn't designed for dialog only, rather it will generally pass about 80% of the dialog as well as other audio, just depends on how the track is mixed.
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post #6598 of 7033
1/23/12 at 5:50pm
I have an AVR 890 and it has stopped outputting HD audio at times. All other audio output works (DD, Multi-ch, etc.) but DD true HD and DTS Master are not always working. Any suggestions.
Thanks
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post #6599 of 7033
1/23/12 at 6:00pm
^^
Can you be more specific? What source are you using? Have you confirmed the settings on the source are correct (ie. bitstream with secondary audio set to off)? Have you confirmed you have the HD audio track selected? What does the ARV's STATUS information display when playing an HD audio track? Has the 890 firmware been updated?
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post #6600 of 7033
1/23/12 at 6:06pm
Thanks for the quick reply.
I am using Sony S370 BD player.
Was watching Wall-e last night and sound was working.
Today go to watch the rest of it and no sound comes out. (Blue light is light up but no sound, Display says DTS-Master)
No I have not updated the firmware on the reciever. Has always worked before.
It just seems to HD codec that I get no sound from.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › *OFFICIAL* Denon AVR 2310CI / 890 Owner's Thread