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Denon AVR-4810CI/AVR-4810 w/ 9.3ch, Dolby PLIIz/Audyssey DSX, October 09- - Page 54

post #1591 of 3997
12/20/09 at 8:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hansangb View Post

Thank you! I too am debating between the two models. Price is not that huge of a concern, but I don't need the Wifi. Well, back to reading the manuals of the two models. Thanks again.

For me, the 4810 is all about 11 channel implementation. I can't believe Denon came out with this receiver and DSX so quickly, while the other manufacturers play catchup. I normally wouldn't spend more than $500 on a receiver, but this was the year I couldn't pass up.

I am using the wides and heights in a 15’ by 20’ room. I consider this a medium-sized setting. Due to furniture/other constraints, my wides are only 2 feet away from the left and right speakers and only 1 foot in front. My heights are 8’ high. I don’t think I come close to the ‘ideal’ placement…but I can hear a better difference running the heights and wides. I don’t care how small the room is, even a bedroom, I’d still hook up all the speakers…including my rears. IMO, the more speakers the better…if not, just go mono and let your walls be your other speakers. Or a soundbar might work. Ok, I'm just having some fun here.
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post #1592 of 3997
12/20/09 at 8:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Did anyone ever figure out the mono block feature? Does each amp have it's own rectifier and filter cap(s)? I assume they are fed from a single shared transformer; if so it's not what I would call a true monoblock, but what do I know?

Well, Many people are talking about external amplification because; quite simply, in order to do 11.1 - you need more "power". In addition, the dang thing can power two more zones with line outs and one zone with optical out. That's an insane 15 channels. 15 - 9 = 6 more channels theoretically required. Thus, something like Emotiva's XPA-5 or even UPA-7 are not out of line.

IMHO one should consider external amplification as most likely an eventual requirement for maximum gratification.

As for me, the word "Need" for more power is probably borderline. I will say my fronts drop to 3.0 ohms and are notorious for power requirements. With my monoblocks, you get quite an LED light show with any movie around -12db or greater. At -7db, it is clear that I may well "need" the external amps. Please don't get me wrong though, the Denon does a good job but I am in the camp that it could use more go juice for medium to large rooms with less than efficient and easy to drive speakers. However, again "need" is a bit strong; how about for me "kind-of-need" and for anyone with just a medium size room and those mentioned easy to drive speakers "really want" Heck, who doesn't want more power? Who cares if we need it.

Anyway, at a minimum, if you want to go 11.1 - you will need something like the Emotiva UPA-2. It is presently on sale and won't add much to the big purchase. I hear the UPA-2 is pretty deep though, so make sure it'll fit wherever you intend to place it.
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post #1593 of 3997
12/20/09 at 6:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tocaje View Post

For me, the 4810 is all about 11 channel implementation. I can't believe Denon came out with this receiver and DSX so quickly, while the other manufacturers play catchup. I normally wouldn't spend more than $500 on a receiver, but this was the year I couldn't pass up.

I am using the wides and heights in a 15' by 20' room. I consider this a medium-sized setting. Due to furniture/other constraints, my wides are only 2 feet away from the left and right speakers and only 1 foot in front. My heights are 8' high. I don't think I come close to the ideal' placementbut I can hear a better difference running the heights and wides. I don't care how small the room is, even a bedroom, I'd still hook up all the speakersincluding my rears. IMO, the more speakers the betterif not, just go mono and let your walls be your other speakers. Or a soundbar might work. Ok, I'm just having some fun here.

tocaje,
Are you using an external amp to drive your wides? From the manual, it says that you have to use PREOUTs for front wide output. So it supports 11.x only if you have 2ch external amp, correct?

Or do you not use 2 surround backs? If that's the case, can you drive your Fronts, Center, Height, Wide, and Surround (9 speakers) w/o an external amp?

Thanks
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post #1594 of 3997
12/20/09 at 8:42pm
there are nine amps. so if you have more than nine speakers, you need more amps. it's pretty simple

as long as you are driving 9 speakers or fewer, you don't need any extra amps.
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post #1595 of 3997
12/21/09 at 9:50am
Yes, I have been using an Audiosource Amp100 for the wides. The 50watts/channel seems enough for my efficient Carver speakers. But thanks to Mrs. Claus, I have recently changed out this amp with an Audiosource Amp200 (80watt/channel). I always wanted the Amp200 but it wasn't in my budget (yes, Batpig and others, I know...such an expensive receiver but I explained my budget in previous post). My wife, uh, Mrs. Claus found an Amp200 open box (like new) at BB for $110 and she couldn't resist. I can always sell the Amp100 (purchased new for $95) if I need to. For now, I'll hold on to it just in case I feel I need more power down the road, I can bridge each amp and have 200 watts from the Amp200 and 100 watts from the Amp100.
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post #1596 of 3997
12/21/09 at 11:01am
Congrats on the upgrade, let us know if you hear a significant difference

You could also use the extra amp to power a pair of Zone 2 speakers elsewhere in the house.
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post #1597 of 3997
12/22/09 at 6:25am
In my younger days, I was a semi-professional musician (saxophone) and played in classical, rock, and big band venues. This is the time of year when we reflect on certain areas, and I thank God that my hearing and vision is still good at 58 years of living; (I digress, but my occupation is working with people with disabilities and I see how fragile the body is and realize how easily my great enjoyment of home theater is tentative at best), but to be honest, I can’t hear any difference between the Amp100 and the Amp200.

What I have really noticed compared to when I was using my Denon 1909 with the same speakers; is I can listen to music and dialogue at significantly higher levels and the sound remains ‘smooth’ and not ‘harsh’. I do have an associate degree in electronics and have read many articles saying you can't hear any differences between 'good' amplifiers, so this could all be 'in my head'. What I feel is more important by far than any esoteric cables, etc...are the speakers. They make or break the experience.

Also, I had never been a fan of surround sound. I have had several 5.1 receivers in the past, but the 1909 was my first introduction to PLIIx and Audyssey and 7.1, and I loved it. Now, with the 4810 and 11 speakers and 2 subs, the surround field is incredibly deep and wall-to-wall. I like it immensely more this way and don’t ever want to go back.
When my boomy 1909 returns with the fw upgrade, it will be in the bedroom.
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post #1598 of 3997
12/22/09 at 9:14am
Quote:
What I have really noticed compared to when I was using my Denon 1909 with the same speakers; is I can listen to music and dialogue at significantly higher levels and the sound remains ‘smooth’ and not ‘harsh’. I do have an associate degree in electronics and have read many articles saying you can't hear any differences between 'good' amplifiers, so this could all be 'in my head'.

actually, to my reading, your experience supports what you have read.

when the A/B test was just two amps (Audiosource 100 vs 200) you don't hear a difference. This is the result one would expect, unless you were actually pushing the lesser amp beyond its limits. And 50W vs 80W isn't really a huge difference.

with the switch from 1909 to 4810, however, you weren't JUST changing amps. The A/B test has multiple other variables beyond the amp section -- you have lower noise floor, better DAC's, more DSP power, MultEQ XT, etc. Plus of course, it's possible that, with all speakers driven in 7.1 with the 1909, you actually WERE hitting the limits of the amp section; whereas now, with the 4810, you can obtain louder SPL with less distortion because you aren't hitting its limits at your desired volume.
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post #1599 of 3997
12/22/09 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tocaje View Post

In my younger days, I was a semi-professional musician (saxophone) and played in classical, rock, and big band venues. This is the time of year when we reflect on certain areas, and I thank God that my hearing and vision is still good at 58 years of living; (I digress, but my occupation is working with people with disabilities and I see how fragile the body is and realize how easily my great enjoyment of home theater is tentative at best), but to be honest, I can’t hear any difference between the Amp100 and the Amp200.

What I have really noticed compared to when I was using my Denon 1909 with the same speakers; is I can listen to music and dialogue at significantly higher levels and the sound remains ‘smooth’ and not ‘harsh’. I do have an associate degree in electronics and have read many articles saying you can't hear any differences between 'good' amplifiers, so this could all be 'in my head'. What I feel is more important by far than any esoteric cables, etc...are the speakers. They make or break the experience.

Also, I had never been a fan of surround sound. I have had several 5.1 receivers in the past, but the 1909 was my first introduction to PLIIx and Audyssey and 7.1, and I loved it. Now, with the 4810 and 11 speakers and 2 subs, the surround field is incredibly deep and wall-to-wall. I like it immensely more this way and don’t ever want to go back.
When my boomy 1909 returns with the fw upgrade, it will be in the bedroom.

If you had speakers that were a little more power hungry the experience would have been different, it's always better to have more power then you actually need! My speakers are rated at 10-200 watts RMS, it stated it's better for the speaker to have more power than it can use than to not have enough! You always want power in reserve when your movies kick it up a notch. My speakers have a recommended RMS rating of 10-200 watts, my Denon's AVR-5700 THX Ultra 140 watts x 5 into 8 ohms is quite powerful, but I'm driving 4 ohm speakers! Can anyone guess what my wattage is driving a 4 ohm load?
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post #1600 of 3997
12/22/09 at 2:43pm
For those of you who are using the 4810CI in a small room - is there really a benefit to having nine or eleven channels for the HT?

As of last month, I no longer have a 25' x 25' home theater as I sold my home. Right now I am in a small condo, a transition into another house. In the new house I don't anticipate having another dedicated HT room, and even if I do, it won't be large.

So I really am struggling between the 4310 and the 4810. If the darned 4310 could process 9 channels, it would be an easy decision. I would wait to make my decision to buy until I have the new home, but unfortunately, my current receiver decided to quit on me.

I have Paradigm Studio 100 L/R speakers and a Paradigm CC-690 center channel speaker. I was using an Adcom GFA-555II to power the front L/R and a mono-bridged Adcom GFA-555 to power an SVS Sub.

So, if there is really no added benefit of 9 channels for a small room, I guess I should get the 4310. If there is a benefit, even for small rooms, I'll reluctantly spend the extra $1000 and get the 4810.

Either way I think I will continue to use the Adcom to power the front speakers, although I was considering sending the Adcom amps to eBay and getting an Emotiva 3-channel for the front three speakers.

Opinions?
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post #1601 of 3997
12/22/09 at 3:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmd918 View Post

For those of you who are using the 4810CI in a small room - is there really a benefit to having nine or eleven channels for the HT?

As of last month, I no longer have a 25' x 25' home theater as I sold my home. Right now I am in a small condo, a transition into another house. In the new house I don't anticipate having another dedicated HT room, and even if I do, it won't be large.

So I really am struggling between the 4310 and the 4810. If the darned 4310 could process 9 channels, it would be an easy decision. I would wait to make my decision to buy until I have the new home, but unfortunately, my current receiver decided to quit on me.

I have Paradigm Studio 100 L/R speakers and a Paradigm CC-690 center channel speaker. I was using an Adcom GFA-555II to power the front L/R and a mono-bridged Adcom GFA-555 to power an SVS Sub.

So, if there is really no added benefit of 9 channels for a small room, I guess I should get the 4310. If there is a benefit, even for small rooms, I'll reluctantly spend the extra $1000 and get the 4810.

Either way I think I will continue to use the Adcom to power the front speakers, although I was considering sending the Adcom amps to eBay and getting an Emotiva 3-channel for the front three speakers.

Opinions?

Just make sure the receiver you do buy has height and width speakers, height speakers being preferred method over width speakers! Height speakers can work in a smaller room as there a bit higher than even the surrounds.
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post #1602 of 3997
12/22/09 at 3:16pm
Quote:


height speakers being preferred method over width speakers!

actually Audyssey's research indicates that WIDE speakers are the two most important speakers to add beyond 5.1. Of course, it is also true that (in most rooms) the wide speakers are more difficult to find space for vs the height speakers.

http://www.audyssey.com/technology/dsx.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audyssey View Post

Experiments have shown that human localization is better in front than to the sides or behind. This means that for front-weighted content such as movies and most music, good engineering dictates that we employ more channels in the front hemisphere than the back. Imaging is also better horizontally than vertically and so good engineering also dictates that channels must first be added in the same plane as our ears before going to higher elevations.



One key finding from the research is that first side wall reflections play a great role in determining subjective impression. The most important direction of reflected sound was found to be ±60° relative to the front. Audyssey DSX provides a pair of Wide channels (LW and RW) at ±60° with appropriate frequency response and perceptual processing to match these requirements of human hearing. These Wide channels are much more critical in the presentation of a realistic soundstage than the Back Surround channels found in traditional 7.1 systems. Adding surround channels behind the listener has a very small impact compared to the increase in envelopment and soundstage width that the Wide channels provide.

The next most important acoustical and perceptual cues come from reflections above the front stage. Audyssey DSX provides a pair of Height channels (LH and RH) that should be ideally positioned at a 45° elevation angle.
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post #1603 of 3997
12/22/09 at 3:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmd918 View Post

For those of you who are using the 4810CI in a small room - is there really a benefit to having nine or eleven channels for the HT?

It's harder to fit all those speakers in, but small rooms need more help to sound big than big rooms.
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post #1604 of 3997
12/22/09 at 3:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

It's harder to fit all those speakers in, but small rooms need more help to sound big than big rooms.

Interesting concept - I've never thought of it that way.
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post #1605 of 3997
12/22/09 at 3:29pm
Although ''wides'' may very well be the preferred route to go, for many rooms they are impractical. My room is only 10 feet wide. Nonetheless I went ahead and purchased the Onkyo 707 and used ''height'' speakers. To my ears with the equipment I have I will say this about DSX heights...

1. The center channel is more clearer and focused (without being too bright)
with DSX than without.
2. All speakers seem to blend better with the DSX function.
3. Now the sound emanates from the entire front wall!

Again YMMV especially depending on the DVD. Just my .02
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post #1606 of 3997
12/22/09 at 5:18pm
Where are the Denon 4310 and 4810 made?

China or Japan?

Seams that the stuff from China is hit or miss in quality.
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post #1607 of 3997
12/22/09 at 8:01pm
Tocaje, thanks for the confirmation.

Batpig, you'd think the 9.3 should be clear enough. But the manual was a little ambiguous so I wanted to make absolutely certain.
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post #1608 of 3997
12/23/09 at 9:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by abba1 View Post

Although ''wides'' may very well be the preferred route to go, for many rooms they are impractical. My room is only 10 feet wide. Nonetheless I went ahead and purchased the Onkyo 707 and used ''height'' speakers. To my ears with the equipment I have I will say this about DSX heights...

1. The center channel is more clearer and focused (without being too bright)
with DSX than without.
2. All speakers seem to blend better with the DSX function.
3. Now the sound emanates from the entire front wall!

Again YMMV especially depending on the DVD. Just my .02


You guys that are using heights, how close did you actually get them to 45 degrees of up elevation? In my room 60 degrees wide is going to be easier than 45 degrees high. Chris over at Audyssey said DSX does best with plus or minus 10 degrees from recommended angles.

Regards,
John
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post #1609 of 3997
12/23/09 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by abba1 View Post

Although ''wides'' may very well be the preferred route to go, for many rooms they are impractical. My room is only 10 feet wide. Nonetheless I went ahead and purchased the Onkyo 707 and used ''height'' speakers. To my ears with the equipment I have I will say this about DSX heights...

1. The center channel is more clearer and focused (without being too bright)
with DSX than without.
2. All speakers seem to blend better with the DSX function.
3. Now the sound emanates from the entire front wall!

Again YMMV especially depending on the DVD. Just my .02

My left, center, and right speakers are mounted on the wall. My left wide is only 2 feet from my left speaker and my right wide is a little over 2 feet from the right front. Both wides are on small tables that ONLY 'stick out' about 15" in front of the left and right speakers. I can still hear a more detailed and fuller sound presentation even with this limitation.

I recently watched 'An Old Fashioned Thanksgiving' Hallmark dvd 4x3 with only a stereo soundtrack. I was amazed how the Dolby PLIIx Cinema with DSX managed to produce wonderful extensions of horses running across the screen along with other ambient information throughout the movie. DSX provides the missing link for me in filling in the gaps that I always had with 5.1 and 7.1. To have a stereo source transformed into '11 channels' seems pure magic. In years gone by, synthesized phantom channels ALWAYS bothered me (SRS, any soundbars or sound technologies trying to mimic more speakers). I think it must be the phasing variations going on. Ever since Dolby PLIIx, my ears don't feel like they are being 'messed with'.
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post #1610 of 3997
12/23/09 at 5:48pm
Yes, I think there is some confusion regarding Wides. They are not surrounds and need not be that far from the Left and Right. In a smaller room of 10 by 13 or so, they could easily be 18 "inches to the side and 2ft forward of main L/R. Or 2ft by 2ft. If you look at the Audyssey Ideal diagram, they are not - like - half way down the left and right wall.

I also enjoy the DSX wide setting but have found that for some rather limited 2.1 Dolby Cable content, I need to ramp the affect down. If you are watching, let's say, a college poorly sound edited football game - full DSX wide really makes the whole damn game silly sounding. Kind of like listening to men speak into a big mayo jar. It's not the solution to every show but for well sound engineered content; it is simply amazing.

To summarize, wides don't need to be mega-wide and get to know all of the 4810 sound tweaks. If you don't you can end up with some really bizzarro sound fields.
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post #1611 of 3997
12/23/09 at 9:33pm
Hi

I just set up me 4810 as a pre connected to my EAD PM1000 Amp for 5.1 channel. Did all the set up according to manual. But noticed I needed to crank up my volume to around -8db whereas previously using my EAD TM 8800 Pro it was only around -15db. I have dynamic volume off. Is this what you guys are experiencing having to set your master vol to around this level as well?

Thanks
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post #1612 of 3997
12/23/09 at 10:51pm
"If you look at the Audyssey Ideal diagram, they are not - like - half way down the left and right wall."

The diagram is a bit misleading.

The 60 deg angle is not quite to scale, and if you extend the line to the same plane as the L/R, they're going to be a lot farther apart.

I think that except in pretty big rooms, they'll end up on the side walls if placed at the recommended angles.
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post #1613 of 3997
12/24/09 at 7:53am
Hi all,

Does anyone here use the Oppo BDB-83 with their 4810CI?

I'm trying to decide if I should be getting the standard or the SE version, and so I guess the question is: which unit has the better D/A converters - Oppo or 4810?

If the 4810 was superior in this area, it would not make any sense at all to get the 83SE, right? I have to admit, I'm a little bit slow to the blu-ray scene, but I'd like to upgrade my current DVD-based universal player (Pioneer 47A) to something that can play everything.

I listen to a lot of high resolution audio, both SACD and DVD-A (mono, stereo, and multi-channel), for what it's worth.

Also, I've heard (perhaps mistakenly) that not all the sounds come through the HDMI cable from blu-ray players, and that some sounds are only available via the analog outs. Is this true, and could someone shed some light on this for me?

I decided to post this question here in this forum, because you guys are the people most familiar with the 4810CI.

I'd love to hear some opinions!

Thanks!!
CJ
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post #1614 of 3997
12/24/09 at 8:09am
I use the BDP-83SE with my AVR-4806CI, which I think would be comparable to the 4810. The analog outputs of the SE are better than the receiver's decoding.
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post #1615 of 3997
12/24/09 at 11:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tocaje View Post

For me, the 4810 is all about 11 channel implementation. I can't believe Denon came out with this receiver and DSX so quickly, while the other manufacturers play catchup. I normally wouldn't spend more than $500 on a receiver, but this was the year I couldn't pass up.

I am using the wides and heights in a 15' by 20' room. I consider this a medium-sized setting. Due to furniture/other constraints, my wides are only 2 feet away from the left and right speakers and only 1 foot in front. My heights are 8' high. I don't think I come close to the ideal' placementbut I can hear a better difference running the heights and wides. I don't care how small the room is, even a bedroom, I'd still hook up all the speakersincluding my rears. IMO, the more speakers the betterif not, just go mono and let your walls be your other speakers. Or a soundbar might work. Ok, I'm just having some fun here.

My room is close, 19x14, 7.1 channels, all tower speakers except center and I'm itchn' for the heights and wides, without sacrificing the rear surrounds. I use an external amp for all speakers except the rear surrounds which I use my Onkyo 805. I have 2 Onix bookshelf speakers with wall mounts ready to go for the wides, and for heights I was thinking of using ceiling mounted speakers a few feet forward of seated position. Does anyone with front wall mounted heights believe the closer/overhead position would improve the front to back sound effects of fly overs or projectile missiles in front-back visual activity?
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post #1616 of 3997
12/24/09 at 2:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cje View Post

Hi all,

Does anyone here use the Oppo BDB-83 with their 4810CI?

I'm trying to decide if I should be getting the standard or the SE version, and so I guess the question is: which unit has the better D/A converters - Oppo or 4810?

If the 4810 was superior in this area, it would not make any sense at all to get the 83SE, right? I have to admit, I'm a little bit slow to the blu-ray scene, but I'd like to upgrade my current DVD-based universal player (Pioneer 47A) to something that can play everything.

I listen to a lot of high resolution audio, both SACD and DVD-A (mono, stereo, and multi-channel), for what it's worth.

There is a lot more to sound quality than DAC's... power supplies, design, etc... the SE seems to be a winner in this regard, and might have an advantage over the 4810...


I went the route of having two players, one of them being a Denon DVD player with Denon Link that passes DVD-A, SACD and CD using a locked clock, which virtually eliminates jitter (I have a 4310...) It is an amazing combo. You can also go with the 4010 Denon BR, but it is much more expensive than the Oppo, and you probably get similar, if not better, performance from the analog side.

However, you must also factor in the ability to use Audyssey in your room as well.... if you like the EQ and room correction it brings, you will need to re-digitize the analog inputs, thus adding two more stages to the audio processing.. if you know you will need room correction, the SE's advantage must fade away and the regular 83 will do you just fine.

Quote:


Also, I've heard (perhaps mistakenly) that not all the sounds come through the HDMI cable from blu-ray players, and that some sounds are only available via the analog outs. Is this true, and could someone shed some light on this for me?

Thanks!!
CJ

That is false.

An HDMI 1.3a equipped player can pass all of the BR approved codecs, as well as PCM, DVD-A (decoded as PCM) and DSD from SACD's over HDMI.
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post #1617 of 3997
12/24/09 at 5:38pm
I'm with filmmixer here. If you are going to buy the 4810, even though it is theoretically less capable than a stand alone transport (be that DVD, CD, or Blu Ray), I think one would want to process one time only. So, if you want to partake in DSX, PLIIZ, PLIIX Cinema, Cinema, Stadium, Rock Concert or Antarctic Medical Testing Station - my own audio simulation) best let the 4810 do it once and do it at least "sort of well". If you want pure limited analog signal path equipment. Go buy some piece of equipment that does nothing more than add volume control. I don't think the 4810 plus some transport that does the same thing slightly better is worth the extra coin.

I mean this very respectfully but this is the big quandary with pre's and receivers now. Either you want them to do nothing; no post processing, no video upconverting, no Dolby DTS or Audyssey manipulation or you want the unit to do it all. The 4810 is in the absolutely all camp. Abosolutely all times 2 is still the same result, thus I so far am pretty happy with my Panny BD30. Gasp, it doesn't even have network capability. "Oh the horror" I also am fine with sticking a FLAC file Memory Stick in the front and letting the 4810 do the rest. I'm a practical living guy with middle aged ears. When I hit really, really ,really good sounding..... I can't discern the uptick to really, really, really, really good (1 more really) So, we're splitting pretty small hairs here......
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post #1618 of 3997
12/25/09 at 4:59am
Does anyone have a Harmony remote code for setting the AVR-4810's display dimmer via the remote?

It's seems ridiculous that I can set it on all their other kit from the remote (including the DBP-4010) but not the AVR; without having to go deep into the menu.

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post #1619 of 3997
12/25/09 at 8:49am
Is it possible to have Wides without surrounds?

This may seem like an odd configuation but I've not received my side, rear, and height speakers yet. I have received my Wides and I'm trying to setup this configuation in my 4810CI, FCR +WL+WR. When performing the auto Audyssey setup it chokes on the lack of surrounds.

Is there anyway to override this or am I stuck until my surrounds arrive?

Thanks!
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post #1620 of 3997
12/25/09 at 9:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by awhb View Post

Does anyone have a Harmony remote code for setting the AVR-4810's display dimmer via the remote?

It's seems ridiculous that I can set it on all their other kit from the remote (including the DBP-4010) but not the AVR; without having to go deep into the menu.


I have a 4310 and have not seen a discreet command to do that....

And, I have not found a way to change that via the Web browser either (which is better IMO than the GUI).
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › Denon AVR-4810CI/AVR-4810 w/ 9.3ch, Dolby PLIIz/Audyssey DSX, October 09-