DVD-Audio decoder for foobar2000 - Page 12

Sort of affirms what I found from converting my ISO/DSD rips to PCM/FLAC using Saracon, Pyramix, etc..

Something happens in the DSD to PCM conversion that causes something to be lost - I couldn't put my finger on it either. It was almost as if I was listening to a CD version of the album but maybe slightly better. This despite spending lots of time experimenting with 20 bits, 24 bits, even 36 bits and various sample rates. Like you, they are fine for casual listening (like a CD) but for serious listening, I'll slip in the shiny disc.

That's a disappointing report. I have yet to take the time to compare the various apps to convert DSD to FLAC much less FLAC to the SACD, but I was hoping that it would be a reasonable substitute that would allow me to stream all content from my PCH.

Jeff

Until someone comes out with a player or streamer that will play DSD direct (like some AVR's), without first converting to PCM, I think we are stuck with the shiny discs for the best audio experience. I think the breakdown is from DSD to PCM but others may be able to shed more light on this than me - perhaps a mathematician can answer what actually happens when converting a DSD of one bit into PCM of 16 or more bits or maybe the right algorithm hasn't come along yet

I have read in other forums over the years that some people can tell the difference between a SACD that is converted to PCM compared to a DSD direct playback - perhaps that is what we are talking about here. Perhaps some do a better job of it than others..........Entirely conjecture on my part. I am no expert.

I'm getting very good results just keeping the the DSD as DSF or DFF and not converting from DSD to PCM. Granted, my player (JRMC17 or foobar) is doing the conversion on-the-fly before sending the data to my DAC (which doesn't support native DSD decoding), but it sounds pretty darn good. I think sound quality of the DSF files are better with JRMC17 than foobar, but only slightly.

My only comparisons are with a few albums that were available as CDs, DVD-Audio and SACD. The DVD-Audio and SACD are always significantly better than the CD. The sound quality of the SACD is comparable to the DVD-Audio. Also, the SACD/DSF seems to be better than the same track that's been converted to FLAC at 24-bit/88.2 KHz.

I can't compare my SACD/DSF file with the SACD/disc played in a SACD player, because I don't own one.

DVD-A effectively *is* PCM, but in the MLP container. Maintaining whatever bit-depth/sampling rate, there is no conversion when moving to FLAC, i.e. is is simply a different contaiiner. However, the conversion from 1-bit, 2.8224 MHz DSD to PCM *is* a conversion and a major one at that. If sound quality is being lost, it is in this conversion.

In the computer audio world there are USB DACs that work with native DSD and convert to analog. That is the only way I know to equal the shiny disc when playing from a computer file. IOW, the extracted DSD files are played directly w/o conversion to PCM.

Jeff

FWIW I am able to play SACD ISOs using SACD plugin in fb2k.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/files/foo_input_sacd/

They also provide ASIO proxy if you are lucky to have a soundcard or DAC that supports DSD pass through.

i see the developer if this plugin is active on here. i should have looked before breaking the "news".

anyway, thank you manisiutkin!

@ WillyJ
Please name any AVR you think is DSD capable. I only know of maybe 3 or 4 models that really out put the DSD stream with no prior conversion to PCM.

Integra dhc-80.3 with dsd direct turned on, but I would never use it that way

Denon 5805CI using the Burr Brown 1792 chip,

Pioneer SC-LX90 using the Wolfson WM8741 chip,

Marantz SR9600 using the Cirrus Logic CS4382a chip,

Possibly the Pioneer LX50 but I can't find out what chip it uses.

That's it, no others I know of but the ones that give the impression of outputting DSD, but actually convert to PCM first.

@ mlknez

Are you sure? What DSD DAC chip does it use?

Your AVR uses the Burr-Brown PCM1795
Is your manual the same as this one:-
http://filedepot.onkyousa.com/Files/own_manuals/DTR-70.1_80.1_En_web.pdf
User manual is not 100% clear about whether the DSD signal merely bypasses the DSP operations or whether it bypasses conversion to PCM altogether. It's a tough call on this one with the manual being unclear. Can you check it directly with someone who really understands the question and tells the truth at Onkyo / Integra?

Also please read:-

http://www.sa-cd.net/showthread/49520/49621#49629

- PCM1792 DAC is a technically superior DSD DAC to the1796! 1791 is worse than both...

- PCM1792 and DSD1792 ARE different but they both have the same identical DSD to analog design and capability, so if they're ever mixed up it doesn't matter if you are considering DSD to analog capability.

- SO WHAT ABOUT DSD1791 AND PCM1791? LOL....:so muchconfusion:

- Some of the receiver model equivalents like Onkyo/Integra are not 100% identical with internal components but are considered equivalents and are identical in terms of DAC, and DSD processing.

- http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=982166

- The DSD1700/DSD1700E is a DSD-capable DAC.

- "All Burr-Brown decoders (I think that one of these is used by Onkyo) that are currently on the TI website do not submit the DSD stream via PCM but all streams are put through some form of "Enhanced Multilevel Delta-Sigma Modulator" before a final D/A step. Whether this is good, bad or a necessary step that all DSD converters would have I am not technically aware enough to comment"

It is very, VERY difficult to get to the bottom of this without any confusion. Hardly anyone, even at the manufacturers, can really answer our questions with any authority/believability. Most are not even honest enough to say, "Sorry, I don't know."

^^

I know my Denon AVP A1HDCI pre/pro will play DSD without converting to PCM and I am pretty sure that my previous Denon 3806 also played DSD native. I also am pretty sure that most of the Denon AVR's that use the Denon link connection to a Denon universal disc player will play DSD w/o converting. Most late model Denon AVRs and universal players have the Denon link.

As far as other makes and models of AVR's and players, you would have to check the owner's manual as well as the connected player. If my memory is correct, not all universal players will output DSD and even more give you an option to output DSD or PCM. So, you are correct in that it is probably a crap shoot to get both the AVR and the connected player to work in DSD. This was one of the selling points that Denon had with the Denon link: Took the guesswork out.

BTW, some folks claim they can tell no difference between DSD direct and DSD converted to PCM. I personally have never done an A/B comparison - I have always listened to my SACD's in DSD. One of the neat things about the Denon AVR's is they will display DSD incoming stream on the front panel (as opposed to PCM or LPCM being displayed) which makes it easy to confirm the source is DSD from start to finish.

MODEL:

Denon AVP-A1HDCI (AVP-A1HDCIA)

DIGITAL DSD INPUT:

HDMI DSD input

DENON Link DSD input

[Supposed]Pure DSD Listening Mode:

PURE DIRECT -> "DSD DIRECT" / "DSD MULTI DIRECT"

DSD-CAPABLEDAC:

Burr-Brown PCM1796

Notes/unrefuted claims/evidence/proof REGARDING THEIR CASE:

• The user manual states that "When playing DSD signals in the DIRECT or PURE DIRECT mode, the DSD signals are converted as such into analog signals. When playing in other surround modes,the DSD signals are first converted into PCM format, then into analog signals."(http://www.usa.denon.com/AVP-A1HDCI-OM-E_101A.pdf)

CURRENT CONCLUSION:

If one is to believe what the manual says, it's 100%pure DSD

No info on the Denon AVR 3806 but imagine it would be much the same as the 3808:-

MODEL:

Denon AVR-3808CI (AVR-3808) (AVC-3808)

DIGITAL DSD INPUT:

HDMI DSD input

DENON Link DSD input

[Supposed]Pure DSD Listening Mode:

PURE DIRECT -> "DSD DIRECT" / "DSD MULTI DIRECT"

DSD-CAPABLEDAC:

Texas Instruments PCM1791A

Notes/unrefuted claims/evidence/proof REGARDING THEIR CASE:

• The user manual states that "Whenplaying DSD signals in the DIRECT or PURE DIRECT mode, the DSD signals areconverted as such into analog signals. When playing in other surround modes,the DSD signals are first converted into PCM format, then into analog signals."(http://www.usa.denon.com/AVR-3808CI-OM-E_404A.pdf)

• http://www.sa-cd.net/faq

• http://www.avforums.com/forums/8923150-post10.html

CURRENT CONCLUSION:

If one is to believe what the manual says, it's 100%pure DSD

IMHO, Denon is exceptionally good in this regard.

It's pretty simple. If the AVR is applying ANY processing to a DSD stream, it is converting it to PCM first. That includes EQ and bass management.

Onkyo 876 did Direct DSD. It's the one feature I miss moving to a 809 model. But good luck ever finding one that works and doesn't have a burned out hdmi board....Last years models only the top in the line could do direct dsd they seemed to have removed it from any other models. The new ones coming out I'm not sure but I bet they left it out again.

Right. I think he posted something from some Denon manuals about Direct/Pure Direct modes only supporting unconverted DSD. That is because of the reason that you mention.

Regarding his original post though, I think he was just asking for specific AVR recommendations that would play DSD native in any way, shape or form.

...which is really too bad, because room correction almost always sounds better than pure DSD.

+1 not even close. the room obscures more of the pure than digital processing obscures of the dsd.

I've never listened to SACD with any processing -always DSD for me-but I may experiment in the future. It seems logical that Audyssey would make an improvement in SACD in my room since I already listen to most all of my vinyl with Audyssey engaged despite having a pretty sophisticated analog setup ( tube phono stage and high end turntable/cartridge). I just upgraded my pre/pro to XT32 which should make it even more dramatic.

It is usually audiophiles who have traditionalist tendencies in their gear and source material (read: vinyl) that resist Audyssey room correction because of the "digital processing" that they've strove to avoid. I understand that for vinyl. (I don't agree, but I understand.) But, to me, that makes no sense for DVD-A/SACD which is in the digital domain anyway.

Anyway, I'm not here to take shots at you ... try it. It is my experience that cleaning up the ringing at frequencies from 400Hz-500Hz down, as Audyssey does, really pulls veil after veil from the music .. the entire frequency range ... not just the 400-500 region. And it more closely matches surrounds to fronts than I have ever heard, so the soundfield becomes more coherent and continuous.

Jeff

It makes sense, in the terms of this DSD discussion, to keep the signal in DSD rather than convert it to PCM for manipulation - all in the digital domain. The conversion from DSD to PCM is required for Audyssey which negates the point of DSD. So, in the terms of this discussion, why not just send it from the player to the AVR in PCM format and then it isn't necessary to have an AVR that is capable of DSD decoding. The poster was asking for AVR recommendations for playing pure DSD - not DSD converted to PCM. I was merely pointing out that I never listen to SACD with Audyssey mainly because of the conversion to PCM issue.

I understand your point about it all being in the digital domain; However, there can be degradation in the conversion process from DSD to PCM depending on the quality of the conversion. I really don't want to get into a discussion about DSD VS DSD converted to PCM because this opens up a HUGE can of worms. Some say they can tell the difference; Others not. I have noted this point in my previous posts about my limited success in ripping my SACD to PCM (FLAC) for streaming.

But I will definitely play with it in the future..........Right now my room is under construction - 3 months and counting. I am having withdrawal symptoms.

This thread hasn't been updated, but it does give a list of known AVR's and Pre/Pro's that supposedly do a direct DSD to analog conversion from a couple of years ago:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1230824/list-of-av-receivers-pre-pros-with-pure-dsd-to-analog-processing/0_50

My opinion coincides with some others here that room acoustics is generally more important than maintaining a pure DSD to analog path, especially for MCH SACD's where bass management, and room correction algorithms like Audyssey can make a huge improvement. The caveat is that some software, such as Foobar's SACD plugin, do a mediocre job of DSD to PCM conversion (IMO), compared to some hardware solutions, and no amount of room correction or bass management can overcome a poor conversion.

The one area I might disagree is a Stereo SACD. With a properly treated room and decent front speakers, room correction and bass management is not as critical. I prefer a DSD to analog path for some stereo SACDs. Since many SACDs start with a PCM source, even this isn't always a given. However, I've at least convinced myself it's not just placebo effect.

That is usually the first step on the path to realizing that is *is* ... all in your head.

Get some good in-ear monitors. They can be scarily fantastic. And room correction, at least without a different mic and stand, is not possible.

Jeff

Is that sort of like the first step on the path toward recovering from substance abuse is realizing you have a problem?

Suspecting comes first. Realizing later.

Jeff