** OFFICIAL ** Denon AVR-3310CI/990 Owner's Thread - Page 5

I had Denon 3310ci for about 2 months now and everything seem to be working fine. My setup includes Panasonic P54V10 TV, Panasonic BD60 Bluray player, HR22 DVR and Klipsch RF82+RC62 speakers and Polkaudio subwoofer. I also bi-amped the front L/R main speakers (RF82) to increase the efficiency driving these speakers. One thing that bothers me is that the sound level is not loud enough in general. I had to set my volume to 65 (absolute) out of 100 or above to get the feel that I'm rocking the house. Is the amp too weak? Can anybody else share the volume level experience? When I had Yamaha 90 W receiver I think it was louder than this...

it's just that the volume dial works differently on these new receivers with Dynamic EQ. The system calibrates your volume so that "0" equals "reference" volume. Then, the volume dial is logarithmic below that, so "-10" is 10dB softer (or about half as loud), -20 is 20dB softer (or about a quarter as loud) etc. At a volume of "0" your system has been calibrated so that, with movie content, the system will be playing as loudly as a calibrated movie theater or mixing studio (as measured at the first measurement point when you ran Audyssey).

Most of us are trained on older volume controls, where "cranking it" meant turning it to half-way on the knob, and it would be insane to turn the knob up 2/3 of the way or higher. So it feels very weird to have to turn the volume seemingly so high. But on these Denons, it is perfectly normal to be within 10-30 dB of "reference" so you will actually be above "half way" most of the time.

so in other words, just turn it up and don't worry what the number says! I don't know exactly how the numerical scale translates between "absolute" and "relative" settings, but I would imagine that "80" (since it goes from 1-99, whereas relative goes from -80 to +18) is "reference" so if you are rocking the house at "65" (15dB below reference) that is totally normal.

Hey any of you guys had any trouble or experience hooking the 3310 up to a Dish Network VIP722?? I am hooking it up via HDMI. The wierd thing is my Oppo DVD player comes thru just (through the 3310 via Hdmi)fine. Now the only thing making me wonder is I have it connected to my PLV-Z2 projector via a DVI cable with dvi to hdmi adapters. Could that be throwing it off having the adapters in line?? But then why isnt it throwing off the Oppo??? I tried powering them on in different sequences but I get audio but no video out of the Dish reciever. It did pop up for a few seconds once but went off.

Classic HDCP "handshake" failure, which with cable boxes are notoriously common... especially so with HDMI/DVI connections. you may have to switch to component video + digital audio connection for the cable box.

So if I have to use component out to the Projector will I lose the GUI?? What about the DVD and other things hooked to the AVR via hdmi??? Would swapping to a HDMI cable with a DVI end on it make any difference??

you do not have to switch to component to the projector, only between cable box and Denon AVR (to take the cable box out of the "HDMI handshake" loop). You can still go Denon > PJ with an HDMI/DVI cable as long as everything else is working fine.

It is POSSIBLE that a different cable or DVI/HDMI adapter would restore the handshake, but not guaranteed. If everything else works fine, and the cable box is the only thing giving you trouble, I wouldn't worry about it and just use component for the cable box (again, you can still go HDMI to the PJ).

Ok Batpig the plot has officially thickened. After having Strawberry shortcake droning at me for 3 hours last nite off of the Oppo it wont put a picture thru to the projector. I get the oppo start screen then it starts blinking just like the 722 does. I am also seeing intermittently that the pj is loosing signal message only seen it 3 or 4 times and only for a few seconds then it shuts off(the on screen message from the pj). I cant get the GUI on screen except when the oppo fires up then it shuts off after a few seconds and goes to blinking. My DVI cable is a Better Cable its as old as the PJ and never gave any trouble previously. Also how do i switch it to see the 722 via the component cables??
I am really starting to hate this hobby.

Wow thanks for the explanation on how volume works on this receiver Batpig. Now I feel a lot better cranking up the volume above 50%. What do you think of this Denon's amp? I still think Yamaha 3900 or Z7 amp is better as it has 20 more watts per channel and it's a lot heavier than Denon. Only reason I didnt' buy Yamaha was it's depth was too long to fit into my Salamander's cabinet.

While weight is always a good indicator to consider in an AVR not all companies are able to get the same efficiency out of their amps. To illustrate I am attaching a couple of test bench results for you to have a look at including for the Yamaha RX-V3900 and the Denon 989 (which weighs just a hair less than the 3310). The following are from Sound and Vision:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...nch-page3.html

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...ics-page2.html

You will notice that while the Yamaha has an advantage in power into 1 and 2 channels it drops off more than the Denon in 5 channel and 7 channel mode. In fact, the Denon still achieves 100 watts with all 7 channels driven even though it is rated at just 115 watts versus 140 for the Yamaha.

Essentially, what I'm saying is that manufacturer ratings and weight alone don't tell the story. In fact with 5 and 7 channels driven I have noticed that Denon's and Onkyo's seem to do significantly better than Yamaha AVRs (that is with 5 and 7 channels driven).

Here is another test bench result from Home Theater Magazine (they test 20Hz - 20Khz versus at 1Khz like Sound and Vision which likley accounts for the differences):

http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/...er/index3.html

You will notice the 3900 achieves just under 70w/ch with 5 channels driven and just under 63w/ch with 7 channels driven. They did not test a Denon model similar to the 3310 but the Denon 3808 which weights about the same as the Yamaha 3900 was tested and was tested at just under 119w/ch with 5 channels driven and just under 114w/ch with 7 channels driven. The 3808 is also rated at 130w/ch versus 140w/ch for the Yamaha. Attached is the bench test for the Denon 3808:

http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/...08/index2.html

Just bought a 3310, i.e. European Model. I assume it is more or the less the same thing as a 3310ci. I am pleased with its sound so far.

I am having a few difficulties with its networked features, however. It is hooked up through a powerline adapter (i.e. Network over power network), which may induce an issue ... but then again I had similar problems with a direct connection using normal Cat5 cable.

ATM, media streams work nicely. I have a PC running TVersity, and I can stream my iTunes folder, internet radiostations inside TVersity (not the 3310!) etc just fine to the 3310.

That means the network settings etc are all just fine.

However, I can not check for update firmware or connect to internet radio directly in the AVR atm. Mind you, that worked yesterday, where I did connect to internet radio and I also did an update of the 3310s firmware.

Oh, while I'm at it: Can Audeyssey be trusted? It calculates different distances for the two fronts, which is wrong ... but who knows, there might be some delay or something I don't see, which came into calculation.... Should I set those distances manually?

(which was the scariest firmware update I ever did ... 22 Minutes of extremely slow updating over what feeled like a flakey network connection - what does it do, receive extremely slowly or download hundres of MB? Gee... It also seems to directly update and not write to memory first somewhere, so it can checksum all first, then update locally. I also had to try four times to get it to connect to their update server. Very dangerous ... yikes).

So what's wrong? Are the Denon and/or radio servers used for this overloaded? Where are they? Can I traceroute or ping them for verification?

Oh, while I'm at it: Can Audyssey be trusted? It calculated different distances to my frontspeakers etc (which is wrong, if we just talk distance here). Should I set this manually?

Greetings from Switzerland

in addition to what EVT said, I wanted to point out that, even if it were true that Amp "X" has 20w/ch more than this Denon, that is essentially meaningless in terms of how "loud" it can crank.

You need to DOUBLE the amount of power to gain a 3dB increase in volume. If the Denon puts out 100w/ch and Amp X puts out 120w/ch, you are talking about less than a 1dB increase in volume before clipping/distortion.

Basically, the differences you hear in how loud you can "crank it" with certain amps has to do mostly with the way the volume dials work. If you level matched the old Yamaha and the new Denon so they were outputting the same volume from your speakers, they would be putting out the same wattage and would sound much more similar. But the volume dials would just be at different places.

I am sorry but it looks like the old DVI projector is not going to fly -- HDMI is a nasty standard in that respect, a lot of people with older people get screwed by the copyright protection schemes

You can switch to component video switching for your video sources, in which case you will retain the GUI but you will lose the video processing (scaling) of the Denon. Bummer man...

Voon -- can't help with the network stuff as I don't own a networked receiver, but I highly suggest you do some research in the 3808CI thread as the networking is similar and that thread is about 500 pages long as opposed to this brand new thread. Pretty much every networking issue you can dream of has been discussed in that thread, and there is a lot more info there.


While the "distances" that are being measured are actually "delays" (e.g. it's really an "acoustic" difference), the distances for your speakers should generally be spot on. The subwoofer will often measure off because of delays induced by processing filters (e.g. a built-in LPF that can't be defeated).

Note that your distances are all calculated at the first measurement position -- so if you are going to judge Audyssey's accuracy make sure you measure from that position (to the front of the speaker).

How far off are the distances you are getting?

I had the Microphone sitting on the 3310's cardboard package on my bed as I lacked a tripod. Positionwise, it was, where I'd have my ears more or less. Audyssey was not THAT far off, but it was. My Mains are both about 3.6 Meters from my sitting spot, Audyssey came up with about 3.6 and 3.45. It's not, that it is far off or so ... the Rears were also quite accuratly positioned. But I wondered, why there was 20 cm Distance in the Fronts and if this can result in something bad? I guess it won't make much difference. Audyssey just does that, no? Distances, "small"/"large" detection etc ... there's no hidden settings, that can't be set using manual mode?

Also, it detected "large" fronts, which is correct I guess .. they're good 80 cm tall Speakers (Heco Superior Cantata 550), capable of quite some bass. But I switched this to "small", since I also own an SVS SB-12 Plus Sub, that can output quite some bass for it's tiny size ... the small 20 qm room is shaking in some scenes I am now in the perils of trying to egt the sub right. My room has wooden floortiles, naked walls, a glass side etc .... as imperfect as they come and not much room for the sub to be at, so I try to play just with gain and wondering, what I should do with the 3 parameter EQ, given that I have no SPL Meter, not frequency analysis software at hand.

But I'm babbling offtopic now, sorry

As for the network, I'll check the thread you mentioned, thanks.

I would not worry about 15cm difference -- are you ABSOLUTELY SURE that you had the microphone PRECISELY symmetrical between the speakers? With your "cardboard box on the bed" microphone stand methodology, I think that's within the margin of error


speaking of which, this is one of the worst ways you could have done it. even if you don't have a tripod, you absolutely don't want the microphone on a giant flat surface which will absorb and/or reflect high freq. sound trying to reach the mic. it's fine for now, but as soon as you can I would try to get something a little more suitable for best results.

since this appears to be a bedroom system and your viewing is mostly on the bed, you may want to go to a musician's store and get a cheap microphone stand with a boom arm, instead of a tripod. having the tripod sitting on the soft bed isn't really ideal -- a simple boom arm would allow you to place the stand on the floor and still move the microphone easily to different positions, and the mic wouldn't be mechanically linked to the bed (which can absorb a lot of vibrations).


the only thing "hidden" that you can't change are the EQ filters themselves. as I mention in my FAQ, you can change anything you want (levels, crossovers, small vs large, etc) in the manual settings and it won't hurt anything -- the EQ filters are totally independent from this stuff. I would leave the distances as measured by Audyssey though.



good for you it is ALWAYS recommended to change speakers to small after Audyssey. The founder of Audyssey himself basically says that, for HT use, there is no such thing as a "large" speaker.
http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/small-vs-large/

So what would you recomend for the audio connections since I cant use HDMI now??

Hello all,
This is my first post here and I just wanted to say that this forum has been a great source of information to me for quite some time now. I thought it was about time to join in on the fun and toss out a few questions of my own.

I just set up a new 3310 in my living room about a week ago and I have been working my way through the learning and fine-tuning curves (I also have a 789 in my master bedroom, so I'm not entirely new to Denon). So far I haven't had any major issues except that I did experience the "failed5A" error during my 2nd firmware update on the unit. I was a little worried at the time about how to get "unstuck", but powering off/on the unit caused it to resume the update that was in progress and it completed successfully.

I do have a question on using an iPod with the 3310. Can you plug an iPod in to the USB port and get any functionality at all? On page 27 of the user manual it says "When using with an iPod connected directly to the AVR-3310CI's USB port, select "USB" for the input source". So from that wording I would assume that I should be able to get some iPod functionality through the USB port. I have a 4th gen iPod Nano and I spent about 5 minutes playing with it connected to the USB port, but I wasn't able to get it to work. I was using the USB cable that I use to connect to my computer to download music from my iTunes. So I thought I would pose the question here and see if anyone can shed some light on this.

I know that you can buy the separate docking port/station from Denon, and I may end up going that route in the end, but I wanted to see what I could do using the USB port first.

Also, I don't think the docking port will charge the 4th gen iPods while they are docked (that's what I discovered with my Bose SoundDock). Can anyone confirm this?

TIA and thanks everyone for your contributions to this forum.

Hi all,

A couple of comments and questions here from a new 3310ci owner...first off, I do notice the FM reception is *far* worse than my 31 year old Pioneer SX-1980 was..the Pioneer shows 3 out of 5 on the S-meter for a certain station (KCDX-FM) but when I tune the Denon to that station, I can just barely tell it is there. This is using the same connection and outside antenna as the Pioneer. Other stations that were full quieting on the Pioneer are noisy but listenable at low levels. Rather disappointing I think. Which brings up the next question...

The station above does have Internet streaming audio as well, but it is not on the list of Internet stations shown by the Denon. When I search for KCDX, it says 'not found'....so is there a way to add other stations somehow? I can find nothing in the book about this.

Last problem.. I want to take a line-level output for the stereo in the basement. However, the recording output only outputs the FM stations, not the Internet streaming audio or any other sources! And the pre-amp outs don't work at all...again, I find the manual very confusing. All I want is to have 2 channel audio from whatever source I am listening to output to the basement stereo...can that be done? I'd think a recording output would have whatever signal was input on it..or am I missing something here?? .

And I agree with the other guy....Denon's firmware updates are rather flaky, but with a little effort and help from others on here, it does work.

Thanks for all the help!

Ted

@batpig

Okay ... I'll redo the Audyssey Setup ... have to find me something tripodish like you said Somethings nagging on the backside of my head: How many measurement points? Since it said "Listening positions" I only measured two ... the two where I sit on my bed.... should you do measurements all across the room?

@ACR_Ted

Hm, there's the radio denon website. You have to have connected once first, before you can login there. After that, use your 3310's MAC Address (to be found somewhere in the network menus) as a login ID ... there you can manage some 13'000+ radio stations. KCDX is not found, but you can add any station yourself, if you have the URL for it.

As for sending out Preamp signals to another Stereo, can you not achieve this with the ZONE setups? I haven't tried that, since I don't need it, but asfaik, that's the idea behind the zones. In english, that's on page 81 of my european multilanguage manual - might differ from what is bundled in the US.

Voon,

Thanks for the info - I did not see anything in the book about Radio Denon but I will give it a try and see. I do have the 3310ci connected to the Internet, so that should work out fine.

When I set up my system with the Audyssey set-up, I put the mike on a small folding camera tripod (about 6 inches high) and placed it in 6 different locations all centered around the main listening point. I put the tripod on the back of the recliner and couch (as close to ear level as possible) and it certainly seemed to work quite well. I am not sure about measuring all around the room though....I'd think you would want it set for the prime listening spot.

Ted

@ACR_Ted

Neither did I ... I found out about Radio Denon here. I can't even say, if it works, since I can't get my 3310 to do Internet Radio atm, sadly.

Tell me, if the Zone stuff worked. It's incomprehensible gibberish in the manual, but should do, what you want

regardless of how many people are listening, you want to do ALL six positions for best results. the idea is to sample the distribution of acoustics in your room -- the more data you have, the better the results will be. just measure all eight positions in a cluster around the main "listening spot" spaced out 1-2 ft.



the REC OUT should be able to take out any analog source or 2.0PCM digital, which should include internet radio -- but make sure to actually select the REC OUT source (which is joined with the Zone 2/3 source) (see pg 77 of the manual).

on a side note, the pre-amp outs should DEFINITELY be working, regardless of source. AFAIK they are always active!

You can still use HDMI for audio while using component for video. Not totally necessary except with sources that have hi-rez audio (like a Blu-Ray player) but it's doable. You just have to ASSIGN both the component video source and the HDMI input to the same "name".

For example, let's say you are using the "DVD" input name for your Oppo BDP. Connect both an HDMI cable and a component video cable. Assign both of them to "DVD" in the Input Setup menu. Run a component video cable out of the Denon to the PJ.

The video will pass through as component, but the Denon will still be able to use the lossless audio over HDMI.

Well trying to add an internet radio station does't seem to work either (I sure am getting somewhat frustrated here - why can't manuals and web sites be documented correctly???) in that while I was able to add the station I want (and it does show up as a favorite on my RadioDenon homepage) I still can't find it anywhere on the Denon itself! The RadioDenon site said to do a manual firmware update to have the added stations inserted into the "favorite" list, I did so, and still the favorite list says 'empty'.

Any other ideas???

Thanks!

Ted

jpinks-

I have a 3310 and an older toshiba 56" rear projection TV with component inputs. I originally set it up with HDMI (for sound) and component (for video) from my PS3 and Bluray player and then only sent on the component only to the TV. I also hooked up a DirecTv DVR with component and optical out. The GUI overlay worked on the DVR because it did not have the HDMI hooked up but for the other two sources the GUI would cut out the video and show a black background behind the GUI when it was invoked. I didn't really like this and you can't scale any 480i or 480p inputs up to 1080i. (The blueray player would only put out 480i or 480p on the component output for regular DVDs).

So, I wound up purchasing a HDFury2 from CurtePalm (http://www.curtpalme.com/index.shtml) and have all three HD sources now hooked up to the 3310 with HDMI and a HDMI out to the HDFury2 and then component into the TV. As far as the 3310 is concerned, it is a HDMI TV so all the scaling options and GUI overlays on everything. It works well. The only mistake I made was not getting the HDFury2 set to only go as high as 1080i. You can do that at the time of purchase (or send it back). The HDRadio and Internet Radio want to output at 1080p because the HDFury negotiates with the 3310 and tells it to go that high. I set the other sources in the 3310 to stop at 1080i but the radios don't have a place to set scaling outputs. I found a workaround in that I can set the video to a different source (one that I have set to scale to 1080i) and now it works fine.

I haven't decided if I'm going to send the HDFury2 in to get it limited to 1080i or just live with my workaround. I really do not mind seeing the Tv in the background while I listen to Radio so I may just leave the HDFury2 alone.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know you have options if you use component video. If you have any more questions, just ask, I think I've tried just about every combination of inputs on my 3310 or my other 890 in the last month or so.

g

OK I did get the Internet Radio to work - my error! I didn't realize that there were different 'favorite' folders on the 3310...once I found the correct folder, the KCDX station loaded and played perfectly for hours.

And once I turned on the Zone2/3/RecOut I got the signal I needed for the basement stereo - thanks! It does seems somewhat strange to have to enable and then select a source for the rec-out to work - I had just *assumed* that the rec-out would be live at all times and output whatever was being listened to.

Ted

I've got a Denon 3801 that I've had since 2001 or so, and my video is beginning to cut out on occasion from various sources. And no HDMI. So it's time for an upgrade. A few questions.

Is the lip sync delay configurable by input? And can it be adjusted pretty quickly via the GUI?

Like Phantom52 I'm deciding between the 4308 and the 3310. I'm pretty sensitive to jaggies, so the video processing may be the deciding factor. If I keep it for 8 years like the last one, a few bucks isn't that big a deal, so I consider the price difference a nonfactor. Anyone with experience with the Faroudja vs the Anchor Bay?

there is an "auto lipsync" function which is non-configurable (thus the "auto") but there is also an adjustable "audio delay" setting (which you can set by input) which can be adjusted on the fly in the "audio adjust" parameters (see pg 75 of the 3310 manual).


The video processing will be much better on the 3310. If you read the 4310CI owner's thread there are more comparisons (as it's a more obvious decision comparison between 4308 vs 4310). Some owners of 4308 or 3808 (which had the same vp) have discussed the new ABT scaler in that thread.

The Faroudja implementation in the Denon is very thoroughly reviewed...

Review of 3808CI video processing (same as 4308CI):
http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/...at/index2.html

Cnet review of 3808CI (scroll to the end for video tests):
http://reviews.cnet.com/av-receivers...l?tag=txt;page

Ultimate AV Mag review of 4308CI:
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avrecei...08/index2.html

Basically, there is obvious consensus among the reviews, and it makes sense considering that chip was designed for progressive scan SD DVD players: it does a pretty good job with 480i signals (especially if they are digital) but is fairly useless for HD processing (e.g. 1080i deinterlace).

Now..... this may not matter if all of your sources are good quality, HD native signals and you have a nice display.

Hi guys,

In case anyone is interested, Denon responded to my question and noted that the PReP feature of the ABT 2010 is not active in the 3310 (and I assume the 2310 and 4310). I found their comments somewhat strange, they indicated they didn't feel that PReP was a forward compatible feature (I'm not sure what exactly that means).

In any event, for those making a decision to buy this unit over the 3808 I would suggest you reconsider if the only reason you are picking the 3310 is for video processing, while the ABT 2010 is great, the implementation in the 2310, 3310, and 4310 can be limiting, for example:

1) for SD content you can chose between pillarboxing it or stretching it, this is problematic because you cannot zoom non enhanced widescreen content (you are stuck with borders on all four sides), and, you are stuck with either stretched 4x3 or squished 16x9 programming.

2) If you have a device such as a PS3 which needs to output different things in different resolutions the Denon is essentially useless (e.g. you want games to go through as 1080p but want movies to go through as 1080p24 - there is no option other than turning off the scaler to accommodate this).

Now, you can do manual adjustments to work around some of these issues but that really ruins the user experience; in my opinion, buy which ever AVR will be best at SQ and buy source components with good video quality (e.g. Oppo BD player) and you will be fine. In practice, I find that I only use the scaling in the Denon 3310 for cable signals as all cable signals I receive are either 4x3 SD or non ehnhanced widescreen SD; but even in my situation it is limiting that you can't zoom the non enhanced widescreen SD content.

Anyway, just my $.02

That's interesting, we just had someone in the 2310 thread post they also got confirmation from Denon that PReP and other features (e.g. edge / detail enhancement) are not active in the Denon's implementation. That seems a little wacky as they are specifically mentioned in this press release:

http://www.anchorbaytech.com/docs/pd...esign_wins.pdf

I has always assumed PReP would be on "auto" setting in the background and the "Enhancer" feature in the menu was a combined "detail/edge enhancement" from the ABT chip, but it looks like that's not true. Bummer