** OFFICIAL ** Denon AVR-3310CI/990 Owner's Thread - Page 22

I did not switch from Onkyo to Denon. It was a Harmon Kardon to Denon switch in my case.

I did test the Onkyo 807 quite a bit before buying the Denon 3310, however. And I tested it in comparison to the lower Denon 2310. My tests also included the Pioneer SC-25 and SC-07.

I really wanted the Pioneer SC-25 for its great looks and arguably greater dynamics, but it might not have fit into my HT stand.

In my own comparison, I thought the Denon 2310 had more clarity and perhaps slightly more detail than the Onkyo. I thought the Onkyo had a bit more punch at the bottom, but it wasn't quite as tight as I would have liked. I was also a bit concerned about talk of how much heat the Onkyo put off.

(The SC-25 has great dynamics for movies and taut bass. I like the detail at the high end too, though the Denon seemed to have slightly more warmth.)

Nonetheless, I thought the Onkyo sounded excellent overall and I would have bought it had I gotten a good deal ($700 or less) at the time I was in the market. One of my concerns with the Denon 3310 was that it was outweighed by about 15 pounds by the 807. I thought it might not have enough power.

Yet I don't notice any difference in the Denon's bass reproduction - in no small part, I suspect, because my listening room is on the smaller side. If anything, my sub almost frightens me with its output.

In any case, I got a great deal on the Denon 3310 ($850), so that's what I got. If the 2310 could hold its own with the 807 in my tests, I just had to believe the 3310 would surpass the Onkyo.

Aside from some difficulties with networking, I enjoy the features of the Denon and the sound is what I expected. Excellent clarity and detail, controlled but deep bass, and good sound-staging. Using Audyssey has made an incredible difference and pure direct stereo is also terrific.

What surprised me was the quality of the video processor. My Denon upscales non-HD material better than my other devices, including my Toshiba LED TV. I would not call it a ground-breaking improvement, but it's noticeable.

Like many others on this forum, I agonized needlessly over which receiver to buy. The differences were slight and I am sure I would have been happy with any of them.

The timing of (unadvertised) AVR sales and form factor ultimately played the biggest roles in my decision. The Denon fit my HT stand better than the Pioneer and sales of the Onkyo dried up the week I was looking to make a buy

Thanks for the fast response. I am just curious if there was a major difference between the 3310, and my current receiver the Onkyo 705. I know the Denon has better DACs, but Denon does not have THX, and audysee XT. I currently have a all Paradigm studio 5.1 system and I just feel like with a better amp I could get the detail (imaging) a little clearer. That is the problem with this hobby there always is something better for a fee

Bump....

Batpig? Anyone?

Thanks!

Ted

Sorry Ted, I have nothing. I am unable to support any networking functions because I don't have a networked receiver. I just have no idea how that stuff works and it would be a whole 'nuther can of worms if I tried to start assisting people with networking issues... You should give Denon a call.

Forget about the DAC's and the whatnot, the big sonic difference will be the addition of Audyssey Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume.

If you do most of your listening at moderate volumes (e.g. a typical living room setup), this is a major improvement to the surround sound experience. If you do most of your listening at near-reference volumes (e.g. a large dedicated home theater), it won't be as big of a deal.

Unless you use the THX processing a lot I don't think it's that big of a deal. The Denon can still process any soundtrack into 7.1 (using PLIIx, PLIIz, or soon Audyssey DSX) and the Audyssey technologies obviate the need for certain THX functions (like loudness plus, boundary gain compensation, etc).

Obviously, you also get some new features like better video processing, color GUI, networking, etc. but in terms of sonics, those new Audyssey features are the major differentiating factor.

Hey Batpig - I have been trying to get Logitech to copy over the Denon codes you have and they are being a real PITA about it. I even sent them your sheet as an attachment and told them to copy all these codes to my account and they came back stating they have no ability to open up attachments so they forwarded my message to a tier II tech. WTF

Since when did Tier I become little more than an autoreply person saying "sorry you are having trouble"? I mean seriously. Any pointers here how to deal with these folks? I am about 6 hours short of just sending back this Harmony One remote because IT DOES NOT WORK WITH THIS RECEIVER!!! There are several menus and submenus that it will not control, despite what Logitech says. LIARS!

Ted most likely its the internet congestion or heavy load on the Denon update server. Try doing your update an an unusual time for your region of the world in the middle of the night say 2 or 3 am local time then the internet congestion may be better and with luck the load on the update server will be less. Also make sure your using a wired internet connection for network updates I would not use a wireless connection due to their unreliability and reduced speed could cause a time out situation which would cause the update to fail.

And due to the prior failed update attempt you might want to reset the processor that should get your network connection working again. I have not had to do that so I do not know if it will reset all your setting or not. It might be a good idea to write them down prior to doing that. Also the update I did ended up wiping out my internet radio favorites I had to put them in again.

As I've noted many times, this does happen occasionally. Some people get the codes copied right away, others have to put up fuss. Just keep at it. They can't really do much with the spreadsheet, just tell them to copy the codes from the Denon device under username "batpigworld".



I understand you are upset right now but that is a bit of an overreaction. In what way are they lying? The stock device profile for a Denon AVR will control every function of the receiver, with every button that is on the original remote. Just because you don't get all these wacky discrete codes that aren't part of the stock remote doesn't make them liars.

I did tell them to copy from your username and the told me they needed specific codes. Whatever that means. In terms of functionality, with the 3310CI chosen from the Logitech database, I cannot control ANY of the Denon GUI. I can get it to come up, but it does not allow me to navigate or select anything. I tried all the buttons on the remote. In addition there is no control of channel levels, which is why I bought the remote to begin with because I tweak my center channel and sub quite often on the fly. So in that regard, I consider their "support" of the 3310's function at about 50%. It's not 100% supported by any means. Besides, I should not have to tell them I need your codes anyway. It's their product and this should be in their database if they are claiming the device is fully supported by the remote. I am just bummed that it doesn't seem to work "as advertised".

What buttons do you use to navigate the OSD menu?

with all due respect, that is user error. That doesn't make them liars.


up, down, left, right.... have you gone into the button customization for the Denon device and made sure that the arrow keys actually correspond to the Direction arrows on the Denon? The default configuration that the Harmony software chooses is not always going to be accurate.

I am pretty sure "Channel Level" is in there. If not, you can "teach" the command from your factory Denon remote.


"fully support" for them means having all the functions of the original, factory remote, which I believe they do. I don't think they are any obligation to cater to the "tweaker" crowd who is utilizing all sorts of non-standard IR commands. That's why forums like this exist.


eh, it's not so bad, I just think it's time for a cocktail we will get this working soon, no worries....

Is there a better match for the 3310 in the logitech database that you could recommend? I don't think the one they have listed for the 3310 maps very well to the remote at all. I have checked the IR codes on the arrows and I still cannot navigate the menu. I will have to call their tech support later. Thanks for your help.

dbrun:

I initially asked for batpig's setup. First guy said he didnt have the authority and wanted to help me set the 3310 up. I said it would be better if I just copied Batpig. He sent me to Tier 2 and another guy quickly complied. Sorry you are having so much trouble.

Because of some complications, however, I had to start from scratch with the Harmony One. This time I didn't want to wait a couple of days again for Logitech to respond, so I used the generic Harmony code for the 3310 and then customized it.

As it turns out, Batpig's setup had far more controls than I needed on my remote and a few that don't even exist for the 3310. It's great for those who want every command at hand, but I was able to find everything I needed in the Logitech software. Just took me some time and experimentation to figure out exactly how to drum up the commands I needed.

There's nothing that you want to do, I suspect, that cannot be added. Try the Other Commands button and the LEARN button, which brings up some functions already on the remote without forcing you to do remote-to-remote flashing.

Alright, alright... after a few hours and a few beers later I am happy to report my harmony one is now behaving. I found the setting I needed to change. The default database mapping of the directional buttions for the 3310CI is set for tuneup and tunedown with nothing selected for L/R arrows (or something like that.) I thought simply teaching the IR commands was all I needed to do, little did I know you can actually control the mapping of these on the buttons and in the menu. Slick little device once you learn the right way to use it.

Also Batpig I saw your note on your spreadsheet regarding the missing detail of the day/evening/midnight modes for dynamic volume. I found the same setting through the menu under

Audio/video adjust>audio adjust> audyssey settings>

Are these the same thing?

Also, what delay do you use for the Denon? Mine is a little slow to respond.

dbrunodna,

I'm using the codes copied from batpig's profile as well. The reality with Harmony is that there are 2 ways to control a device...you can map any hard or soft key to do an action for the ACTIVITY, or you can select the device from the Orange DEVICE menu on bottom right of touch screen during an activity.

In my case when watching TV, I want the hard buttons to control my PVR for the most part. So, let's say I have programmed a soft key for discrete access to the CH levels into the watch TV activity. When I hit that key, the up/down/left/right buttons are still going to control the PVR, as that's what I've asked it to do. Now, if I go to Devices, select the Denon, and then hit Menu on the Harmony, all the harmony keys now control the Denon, because that's the active Device. When I'm done, I go back to Current Activity and it's now controlling the PVR again.

I also like to tweak levels (mostly sub, sometimes centre) while watching TV or a movie. I have the CH level soft key on the first page of the Device when I select Denon. Basically it's 3 quick clicks (Devices/Denon/Ch level) and I can change 'em quickly. The CH level menu also disappears after a few seconds, so I don't have to back out.

It takes a bit of playing around with it, but it works very well once you tweak it to your liking.

FYI, I have the Inter-key delay set to 0 on mine, which has helped (but not eliminated) the lag.

HTH.

We seen to running parallel lines, dbrun, though I prefer Scotch when I burrow into my remote settings.

I enjoy using the Harmony One. I just didn’t enjoy setting it up, even though it’s ostensibly easy.

Truth is, I’ve spent more time setting up the remote to my liking than I’ve spent altogether in assembling my new Bello HT stand, adding the components and calibrating the video and audio!

Biggest annoyance is how quickly the Logitech software logs me out while I am fiddling with the settings. And of course it is endlessly customizable, so it takes time to get very familiar with the process of adding and positioning commands.

In my case, I like to have certain commands from different devices available in every activity.

When I watch TV, for example, I want to be able to power off any other device from the Watch TV settings. Ditto if I am watching Blu-Ray.

I don’t want to have to switch to a device to trigger a command and then switch back to the activity. (If someone in my family picks up the remote when it's in Device mode, they always get confused).

Similarly, I’ve added the Denon commands for stereo, Pure Direct, Dolby Music and Cinema, Dolby Digital (and DTS) as well as 5-channel stereo to each activity and each device.

I’ve added the Denon menu command to each activity as well.

Another thing I do is position my most used touch commands as close as possible to my fingers. On the first page, I position my two most used keys on the bottom touch “buttons.” Since I am a lefty, I put my most used commands on the left side instead of the right.

If I have 4 or 5 pages of touch commands, I also put my most important on the first and last pages. It’s easier to get to them with one click or less, instead of scrolling to page 3.

It’s taken a week and a half, but I almost have the Harmony One set up exactly to my liking.

My inter-key delay is also set to zero. I haven’t felt a need yet to fiddle with the delays.

Thanks for the feedback guys. This remote seems very simple and easy on the forefront but there's A LOT of details to controlling the beast once you dive into it.

Shanmike, I actually sacrificed a button on the remote so I can bring up the channel level directly from the current activity. I think I used the "info" button to bring up the settings. Problem I was running into is that ch level menu doesn't stay up very long, so by the time I chose it in the touchscreen, I had to quickly move down to the directional buttons before the menu disappeared.

I guess my only gripe at this point is there isn't enough "hard" buttons for my DVR. I have to sacrifice certain buttons like "enter" and "+" to bring up my DVR and to move to "livetv". I know I can move these into the touchscreen area, it's just not that accessible up there because once you're into the menu, you have to again shift towards the bottom of the remote to control the DVR. I am just not used to all these hand movements on the remote. The DISH remote is actually quite nice because all these function buttons are on the periphery of the directional buttons within close reach of your thumb - something the harmony one lacks. Perhaps I need to grow a longer thumb...

Anyway, I have it controlling my Maestro IR lights in my cabinets. Wife got a kick out of that. Suddenly a $200 remote made sense! Now I just need to buy more peripherals to program!

UPDATE: Just got an email from Logitech. Apparently I got the codes updated from Batpig's account! Looks like Tier I techs cannot do the transfer, it needs to be moved to a Tier II tech. I'll have to give these a whirl when I get home.

To potential buyers of new AVRs, I'd, um, amplify earlier comments by Batpig about the value of Audyssey in particular and automatic calibration in general.

I used to use a fairly powerful (40 plus pounds) Harmon Kardon to drive my full-range speakers, but the smaller Denon 3310 (15 pounds lighter) does a MUCH better job when it comes to the actual sound.

My HK ($1,000 at time of purchase in 2002) was a good receiver and mostly held its own with even more expensive NAD and Rotels that I compared it to when I bought the HK. So why such a discrepancy?

Now, I am no audio expert, but I would imagine a better DAC is one reason and auto calibration is the other.

Calibration has made the biggest difference, IMO, and an almost unbelievable one. The HK had Dolby Pro Logic II for music just like the Denon, but it didn't sound anywhere near as good. I can't believe it would just be an improvement in Dolby, either (if there even has been any).

Audyssey has given my 5.1 system better sound staging, a clearer articulation of individual instruments and the right balance in a very difficult room. What's more, I now prefer to listen to music in Dolby music instead of stereo. With my HK, I thought stereo was clearly better.

Audyssey has also given my sub its rightful place, neither boomy nor timid. Drums have tight thump and bass reaches deep, so I feel the music more, just like in a good club. My sub simply was not being utilized properly by my HK even though I used traditional crossover settings and a sound pressure meter to dial in the gain.

Sometimes I wonder if better DACs and Audyssey are being used to mask deficiencies in amplification. Perhaps this is so, or perhaps they are merely reducing the need for so much amplification in the first place. I don't know.

What I do know is that the Denon sounds great and music and movies sound great. Accurate and involving.

Heavier, well-designed amps might make my sound even better, but given the size of my room and the levels at which I listen, I would end up paying far too much for far too little improvement.

On a related note, I have found one thing odd about my new Denon AVR. DTS Neo actually sounds worse on my Denon than it did on the HK. I used to prefer Neo for music on the HK, but on the Denon, Neo sounds too bassy and less articulate with the mids and highs. Muddy even. Have no idea why.

See I told you have a cocktail and everything will work out

Glad we are on the right track now....



Yes, this is the same thing. The advantage of the "discrete" codes is that you can do it with one press of a button, as opposed to having to open the GUI and navigate through two levels in the menu structure.

I think it's more accurate to say that Dynamic EQ dramatically improves the listening experience at moderate volume levels (which most people prefer the majority of the time) so you don't NEED the power to crank it up loud.

Without Dynamic EQ, things will always sound "thin" at lower volumes because of the lost bass and surrounds.... so you keep feeling tempted to "push it" and feel things "open up" at higher volumes. With Dynamic EQ, it becomes more satisfying and comfortable to listen at more moderate volumes, which require VERY little power.

It really doesn't take a lot of wattage to listen at 15 or 20dB below reference with the typical 88dB+ efficient, 8-ohm speaker. Especially when all the low freq bass is crossed over to a sub. So the improved processing technology (esp. Dynamic EQ) makes a much bigger impact for most "typical" listening situations than having a beastly amp section.

An excellent explanation, batpig, but …

The MultEQ-calibrated Denon 3310 sounds appreciably better than my beefier HK at or above reference levels, with Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume off. I am frankly shocked at the difference.

Like I said, my HK was considered an excellent AVR when I bought it. I was actually worried I would lose pure power and sound quality by switching a receiver that was 15-17 pounds lighter. Not so at all.

That’s why Denon was originally my third choice among the receivers I looked at. I thought Denons were overpriced because of brand, much like Sony, and underpowered compared to competing AVRs.

Originally I wanted the Onkyo 807, as noted earlier, because it seemed like a great value-performance proposition. It weighs more than 40 pounds and Newegg sells it for less than $700 from time to time.

Then I gravitated toward the Pioneer SC-25, partly for its great looks but mainly for its even bigger size and raw power. The Onkyo and Pioneer are both well reviewed and, as my own informal listenings showed, sounded great.

I listened to the Denon 2310 originally as a fallback choice because I could have gotten it for just over $500 – $200 less than the Onkyo and $500 less than the Pioneer. I was put off by the smaller weight (24 pounds) before I actually listened to it.

I guess I thought of my AVR choices much like a guy looking for a fast car. You figure a car with mucho horsepower will accelerate quicker and handle better than a car with less horsepower. Maybe I will never drive at 150 mph, but a car that can go that fast is going to reach 70 much faster than a car whose top speed would never exceeed 110 or so.

Then I listened to the Denon 2310. I liked it a touch better than the Onkyo for music and movies – better handling so to speak - and thought it had nearly as much dynamic power for movies as the Pioneer.

Since I was still concerned about the lack of weight, however, I wanted to move up to the 3310 if I could get the right price. I thought the extra four pounds would help. In any case, I got my price and made the deal. Ultimately form factor and price favored the Denon over the Elite.

I don’t know exactly what Denon has done or how they design their AVRs to sound so good even at lower weights. All I know is I like it. My concerns about raw amplication and weight have since been disabused. I know a relationship still exists, but it’s no longer quite as important to me.

Nor should it be to other potential Denon buyers. This AVR has plenty of juice and great sound quality for small and mid-sized rooms.

You're telling me... I am pushing 3 Deftech Mythos nines, 2 gems and a supercube III and at about -10db the sound is deafening. Crisp highs and snappy lows. I can't imagine listening at reference levels routinely.

Anybody use this program (mentioned in other forums) to control via RS-232 the 3310CI? Specifically, did you control over the network in some fashion?

I've used psexec.exe (a Windows like form of telnet) to control a Sony AVR box. This worked well. Has anybody tried this?

Please advise. Thanks in advance.

mjclifford

I am having trouble setting up my PS3 and Denon 3310ci sound. I have set the sound on the PS3 to LPCM, but the reciever display reads Multi DTS-EX. Is there something I am doing wrong? The read out on the PS3 says 5.1 DTS-HD MA. Thanks for the advice in advance.

If you want the Denon to read DTS-HD you will need to use bitstream with a PS3 Slim, not LPCM.

So, if I change it to bitstream will it do 7.1 sound also or do I have to change it back to LPCM for games?

Bitstream simply means the 3310 is decoding the audio, while LPCM means the PS3 is doing the decoding. Either way will sound the same, although you can leave it in bitstream for everything if you prefer.

Im looking to get the 3310CI..but it was going to be a refurbished (factory certified/checked) model which would save me money. Comes with a 1yr warranty.

Anyone here have any experience with refurbished Denon's ?

Im not great with instructions but how do I acess FM analog. All i see is FM HD???

Almost bought (DENON AVR 3310CI) from Ebay for $949.00 and am glad I didn't.
I just pulled the plug and ordered from JandR and this set me back $999. shipped with MF warranty , plus $59.00 three year warranty from J&R.

Thanks
acemicros

Just use HD Radio...you can select FM from there. It's one of the most confusing options on the AVR, but works great.