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The Official Pioneer 9G North American KRP-500M / KRP-600M Owner's Discussion Pt. II - Page 184

post #5491 of 6954
do your blacks normally have a purplish haze? there's always a kind of "black cloud" that appears when it first fires up. If yours is purplish it's possible the AR filter was misapplied or something else. Do colors and blacks look normal once it's on?
post #5492 of 6954
I know the Kuro's are becoming nonexistent at this point (and many people still want one) so I thought I would post that I am selling my 500m that I purchased from value electronics in late December. It was part of their pixel perfect package and was professionally calibrated by D-Nice with the ISF patch. I found a great deal on a 600m from a coworker that I simply can't refuse. The tv is still under warranty with Pioneer. PM me if interested. I am also going to create a classified ad on the site for it. I live in the Dallas/Fort Worth area (specifically Fort Worth ). The set is in mint like new condition. I thought I had a few marks on it awhile back but it turns out they were just a few pieces of stubborn micro fiber lent........lol . Thanks!
post #5493 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

Not only is the 141 larger, it also has a longer warranty.

That fact (among many others) is noted in the link jdbimmer provided and that you quoted.
post #5494 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Wouldn't it be fairer to compare the 500M to the PRO-101FD? (Which is clearly superior) LOL


bob

Thanks everyone, for your feedback.
post #5495 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlplover View Post

do your blacks normally have a purplish haze? there's always a kind of "black cloud" that appears when it first fires up. If yours is purplish it's possible the AR filter was misapplied or something else. Do colors and blacks look normal once it's on?

Colors and everything look great after it has been turned on for the first time, after those first three seconds or so. I won't see that dark purplish/black cloud again until I turn it on for the first time the next day.

Is the AR filter the wax on the screen or something under the glass panel itself?
post #5496 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze440r View Post

Colors and everything look great after it has been turned on for the first time, after those first three seconds or so. I won't see that dark purplish/black cloud again until I turn it on for the first time the next day.

Is it possible the ambient lighting has changed? The filter does tint certain reflections. Other than the tint the start-up changes you're describing sound like the standard power-up sequence.

Quote:


Is the AR filter the wax on the screen or something under the glass panel itself?

I believe the filter is a (very) thin film bonded to the top glass.
post #5497 of 6954
I'm having some pretty darn noticeable motion-judder issues with my 600M.


It seems to be most prevalent in Blu-rays, but I've certainly noticed it in other circumstances as well.


It's just a very noticeable 'judder' in slow pans and such. For example, in a left-to-right pan, it's as if the moving images seem to shift to the right, and the back to the left, in very very small increments, every millisecond, over and over again, until the pan is done.

I've got my ps3 set to 24p output. I've tried Advanced, Smooth, Standard, and Off on the Kuro, but I can't seem to make it any better.

Is this just normal or something? I swear my roomates Panasonic looks smoother(and he doesn't have any MotionPlus enhancements enabled).
post #5498 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleeve View Post

I'm having some pretty darn noticeable motion-judder issues with my 600M.


It seems to be most prevalent in Blu-rays, but I've certainly noticed it in other circumstances as well.


It's just a very noticeable 'judder' in slow pans and such. For example, in a left-to-right pan, it's as if the moving images seem to shift to the right, and the back to the left, in very very small increments, every millisecond, over and over again, until the pan is done.

I've got my ps3 set to 24p output. I've tried Advanced, Smooth, Standard, and Off on the Kuro, but I can't seem to make it any better.

Is this just normal or something? I swear my roomates Panasonic looks smoother(and he doesn't have any MotionPlus enhancements enabled).


Movies have a low frame rate and slow pans really make that obvious. So do gigantic 60" TVs. This sounds totally normal.
post #5499 of 6954
Might be more helpful if you specify which movies you're having this problem with. Try disabling all the fancy processing on the PS3. I have upscaler off (why would you upscale with BR anyway?), HDMI RGB, and Dynamic Range Control off. I don't remember what settings are in the KRP offhand, but disable any fancy processing it's doing for noise reduction etc... since you're doing BR you shouldn't need any of it.

Have you tried the disc in a different BR player and had the same effect on a different set?

When you describe the judder do you mean that it's just not a smooth motion like it's skipping across or is it actually juddering back and forth across the shot? If it's like it's skipping, then you probably have too much processing going on in the PS3, KRP or both. If it's juddering then it's likely either the BR player or the BR itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleeve View Post

I'm having some pretty darn noticeable motion-judder issues with my 600M.


It seems to be most prevalent in Blu-rays, but I've certainly noticed it in other circumstances as well.


It's just a very noticeable 'judder' in slow pans and such. For example, in a left-to-right pan, it's as if the moving images seem to shift to the right, and the back to the left, in very very small increments, every millisecond, over and over again, until the pan is done.

I've got my ps3 set to 24p output. I've tried Advanced, Smooth, Standard, and Off on the Kuro, but I can't seem to make it any better.

Is this just normal or something? I swear my roomates Panasonic looks smoother(and he doesn't have any MotionPlus enhancements enabled).
post #5500 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze440r View Post

Colors and everything look great after it has been turned on for the first time, after those first three seconds or so. I won't see that dark purplish/black cloud again until I turn it on for the first time the next day.

Is the AR filter the wax on the screen or something under the glass panel itself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Is it possible the ambient lighting has changed? The filter does tint certain reflections. Other than the tint the start-up changes you're describing sound like the standard power-up sequence.



I believe the filter is a (very) thin film bonded to the top glass.

Try starting it up under controlled lighting with any windows drawn, lights out, etc... and see if you're still getting the purplish haze. My inclination is that if your blacks aren't purple normally and colors look right then just don't worry about it (although you'd need a light meter to confirm this).

Still, it's probably a good idea to contact Pioneer tech support and see if it's something to be concerned about or not. I know the initialization cloud isn't something static and changes shape some so I wouldn't be too worried, but always safer to check.
post #5501 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

Movies have a low frame rate and slow pans really make that obvious. So do gigantic 60" TVs. This sounds totally normal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlplover View Post

Might be more helpful if you specify which movies you're having this problem with. Try disabling all the fancy processing on the PS3. I have upscaler off (why would you upscale with BR anyway?), HDMI RGB, and Dynamic Range Control off. I don't remember what settings are in the KRP offhand, but disable any fancy processing it's doing for noise reduction etc... since you're doing BR you shouldn't need any of it.

Have you tried the disc in a different BD player and had the same effect on a different set?

When you describe the judder do you mean that it's just not a smooth motion like it's skipping across or is it actually juddering back and forth across the shot? If it's like it's skipping, then you probably have too much processing going on in the PS3, KRP or both. If it's juddering then it's likely either the BR player or the BR itself.


I have not tried a different BR player as me and both of my roomates all own PS3s.

The judder is just not a smooth motion. Like you said, as if it's skipping across the screen.

It's many, if not all movies. Pixar movies, 2012 that I just watched a few days ago, The Box was particularly bad which I watched last night.

I'll look into various processing functions I have enabled/disabled.. I do have my sharpness heighted to -6 or so on my Kuro... Maybe I'll dip that back down to -15 and see if I notice a difference.

I have also actually read that if you're tired or if your eyes are starting to strain you'll 'create' motion judder yourself and it has nothing to do with the screen. Don't know if that was just a bunch of BS or not.

I also want to state that, of course, this is AVS, and even the most minute 'problem' can be magnified out of proportion. I may just be too nitpicky; no one who's watched movies with me has ever mentioned anything.

I'll keep you updated, and any other suggestions would be appreciated!
post #5502 of 6954
Try different PS3s that your friends have. Many of us have PS3s and KRPs so it's entirely possible there's something wrong with your PS3. I had a similar problem with my HTPC when it wasn't outputing a stable signal before I got it setup right, but not on my PS3.
post #5503 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleeve View Post

I have not tried a different BR player as me and both of my roomates all own PS3s.

The judder is just not a smooth motion. Like you said, as if it's skipping across the screen.

It's many, if not all movies. Pixar movies, 2012 that I just watched a few days ago, The Box was particularly bad which I watched last night.

I'll look into various processing functions I have enabled/disabled.. I do have my sharpness heighted to -6 or so on my Kuro... Maybe I'll dip that back down to -15 and see if I notice a difference.

I have also actually read that if you're tired or if your eyes are starting to strain you'll 'create' motion judder yourself and it has nothing to do with the screen. Don't know if that was just a bunch of BS or not.

I also want to state that, of course, this is AVS, and even the most minute 'problem' can be magnified out of proportion. I may just be too nitpicky; no one who's watched movies with me has ever mentioned anything.

I'll keep you updated, and any other suggestions would be appreciated!

I have watched 2012 on Bluray on my 500M and it exhibited zero judder. But I use a pio elite bd player. Sounds like the ps3 or some settings on the kuro are causing your issues.
post #5504 of 6954
Question:
I have a 500 and it was professionally calibrated.
I have to disconnect and store my plasma for a few months.
Is it possible to lose all the calibrated settings if I keep it unplug for a long time?
Thanks.
post #5505 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleeve View Post

I'm having some pretty darn noticeable motion-judder issues with my 600M.


It seems to be most prevalent in Blu-rays, but I've certainly noticed it in other circumstances as well.


It's just a very noticeable 'judder' in slow pans and such. For example, in a left-to-right pan, it's as if the moving images seem to shift to the right, and the back to the left, in very very small increments, every millisecond, over and over again, until the pan is done.

I've got my ps3 set to 24p output. I've tried Advanced, Smooth, Standard, and Off on the Kuro, but I can't seem to make it any better.

Is this just normal or something? I swear my roomates Panasonic looks smoother(and he doesn't have any MotionPlus enhancements enabled).

Could you describe what judder looks like? On my 101 lately a lot of DTV shows (V the other night) are really "jerky" looking, like they are stepping. This is with a DTV DVR. Tried PC mode off, standard, etc. No difference.

thx

bob
post #5506 of 6954
You know, I thought it was just me with the "V" issues. My eyes were going nuts after I watched it the previous night. I had the same experience with "Lost" earlier this year (during "The Lighthouse"). Maybe it's something with ABC?
post #5507 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by titulin View Post

Question:
I have to disconnect and store my plasma for a few months.
Is it possible to lose all the calibrated settings ...?

That's not supposed to happen but you can use KuroControl to save and restore your settings or KuroReader to save them in an easy to read format.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the KRP FAQ View Post

Q. How can I save my settings in case of error, human or otherwise?
a. jdbimmer has written KuroReader, a program that, among other things, will retrieve your settings and save them and has a number of advantages over using a browser to connect to the KRP web server. xsiv4ce has written KuroControl which will save, restore and manipulate all of the image parameters. Both are Windows programs for Elite monitors (500M, 600M, 101FD and 141FD) and currently only connect via the network.
post #5508 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by easyee View Post

You know, I thought it was just me with the "V" issues. My eyes were going nuts after I watched it the previous night. I had the same experience with "Lost" earlier this year (during "The Lighthouse"). Maybe it's something with ABC?

Maybe a 720P issue? Although Idol on Fox looked fine.

bob
post #5509 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleeve View Post

I'm having some pretty darn noticeable motion-judder issues with my 600M.


It seems to be most prevalent in Blu-rays, but I've certainly noticed it in other circumstances as well.


It's just a very noticeable 'judder' in slow pans and such. For example, in a left-to-right pan, it's as if the moving images seem to shift to the right, and the back to the left, in very very small increments, every millisecond, over and over again, until the pan is done.

I'm fairly confident what you are seeing is normal. It's called low-motion judder, and it's attributable to the native 24p sampling rate used for Hollywood motion pictures. Put simply, 24 frame/s is just not sufficient for capturing and playing back all speeds of motion cleanly.

During very slow camera pans, everything will look normal and smooth. However, speed the pan up, and the motion judder becomes very visible (especially on a 60'' display). I have seen this in several Blu-rays: Wall-E, and Serenity which I just watched earlier this week.

You may have never seen this type of judder previously because you were watching telecined material (24p-->60Hz). Telecine judder is still noticeable, but some would argue not as bad as motion judder from native 24p playback. The mastering studios also apply blur to simulate fluidity of motion. However, oftentimes it's not enough to cover up the judder from various panning motions.

The Kuros do not have any features which can compensate for this that I'm aware of, unlike LCDs which have MCFI and BS techniques to "upgrade" the 24p rate to appear as smooth as 50/60p content. The majority of videophiles and film purists despise this LCD trickery and prefer to leave it disabled. Panasonic also includes their own version of MCFI on their plasma line, titled IFC. But again, many avoid these features for film content.

So right now, there is no way to completely eliminate all forms of judder, while also avoiding the infamous "smooth video look." The absolute best way to compensate for these things is to increase the sampling rate of the source. This is one reason why James Cameron is promoting 48p, and also because judder is more perceptible in 3D imagery than 2D.
post #5510 of 6954
I've been meaning to ask this for awhile now. If it has been answered in another thread, just direct me to the post.

Is there a way to avoid clipping peak white data with the KRPs? With Pure and the ISF modes set to accurate gamma and accurate black level, I am unable to adjust contrast control to show white data above 235/236. This also makes me fail the 'Clipping' white box pattern on Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark.

UNLESS I enable DRE. By putting DRE to Low (1 using ControlCAL), I can get pretty much all peak white data to show. But I believe this throws off gamma perceptibly (makes skin tones a bit redder or more unnatural from what I can tell).

FYI, I am using HDMI with D-Nice ISF settings.
post #5511 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by scionracing View Post

The Kuros do not have any features which can compensate for this that I'm aware of

I believe Pure Cinema: Smooth converts 24p to 60p by interpolation.
post #5512 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by scionracing View Post

Is there a way to avoid clipping peak white data with the KRPs? ... By putting DRE to Low...

Exactly.

You can search the two KRP threads (and Plasma Flat Panel Displays as well as Display Calibration) for DRE and read all about it. In your circumstance my advice is to leave DRE off and remember that without an A/B comparison you will not be able to tell. Probably even given A/B you won't be able to tell.

Sensible film makers know that there are many CE components that clip above reference white and avoid that content just like they avoid fast pans to minimize 24p artifacts.
post #5513 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

I believe Pure Cinema: Smooth converts 24p to 60p by interpolation.

I have also heard that 'Smooth' Mode uses some modified form of MCFI. I have seen some vague posts about it on this forum, and then Josh Kairoff mentioned it briefly on the Home Theater Geeks podcast a couple weeks ago. However, I remember switching into this mode, doing A/B tests, and couldn't tell a difference. I will have to try again now that I can recall specific scenes from movies that show the judder.

Do you know if Smooth is only for 24p material, or can it also be used for 30p material? I definitely remember trying Smooth with an Xbox 360 game that was V-Sync capped at 30p (which I felt was insufficient for that particular game) and there was no difference whatsoever.
post #5514 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Exactly.

You can search the two KRP threads (and Plasma Flat Panel Displays as well as Display Calibration) for DRE and read all about it. In your circumstance my advice is to leave DRE off and remember that without an A/B comparison you will not be able to tell. Probably even given A/B you won't be able to tell.

Sensible film makers know that there are many CE components that clip above reference white and avoid that content just like they avoid fast pans to minimize 24p artifacts.

Outside of the S&M test patterns, when turning DRE on and off, I do notice that there is a difference when viewing clouds and skin tones (faces). The difference is quite small to be honest, but I can see the visible shift nonetheless.

Also, I am aware that many a/v components clip headroom data, but from what I have read, many mastering studios still use professional reference CRT monitors, which do not clip headroom data. (A CRT will show any data that falls within its voltage parameters. By adjusting brightness, they can deliberately crush sub-digital 16 data.) The reasoning is that if the masterers and compressionists see this extra-range data, you should try to avoid clipping it on your display. So it seems the consensus is to show as much headroom data as the calibration range of your display will allow. Of course, this seems to be a subjective determination of the individual calibrator.

I know D-Nice leaves DRE disengaged, just curious what others were doing.
post #5515 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by scionracing View Post

Do you know if Smooth is only for 24p material ...

What's documented is not 60p. That implies any i and any p less than 60. I don't know if that's true but 30p isn't listed in any case.
post #5516 of 6954
Do the KRP's really clip above 235? I though it was somewhere in the 240s. I know that I can get mine to show at least a good portion of the above white test patterns.
post #5517 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by scionracing View Post

from what I have read, many mastering studios still use professional reference CRT monitors

I believe this has not been true for some time. Sony stopped making them quite a while ago but it's irrelevant since all the replacement devices can display the full range.

In any case film makers are (or should be) schooled in the limitations of both the medium (film or video) and the display chain. They know that not everyone is going to watch in a theatre. Good story-tellers take this into account.

Finally consumer electronics (CE) companies have a trade group that sets standards and works with other bodies to maximize quality. Their standards permit CE companies to discard above reference white. Everyone knows this. What they do with that knowledge is a mystery to me. Perhaps Mr D can answer.
post #5518 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

Do the KRP's really clip above 235?

Somewhere near 235.

Stacey Spears cautions one not to be fooled by edge errors. Apparently it's not uncommon for transition artifacts to make the edges of the above reference white bars visible which then fools your brain into thinking you can see the bar. This is something DRE appears to exacerbate in below reference black.
post #5519 of 6954
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

Do the KRP's really clip above 235? I though it was somewhere in the 240s. I know that I can get mine to show at least a good portion of the above white test patterns.

I guess it's debatable, but I still think it's in the 240s. Not that it really matters - it is what it is, unless you want to turn DRE on.
post #5520 of 6954
Mr. D's excellent post here pretty much answered every question I've ever had concerning this issue.

But as jdbimmer stated, you cannot produce the total headroom range sans engaging DRE on the KRPs. (at least not in Pure or ISF picture profiles.)

This is probably a discussion for another thread, but I wonder if the studio grayscale range will ever be reconsidered (expanded). The dynamic range of film capture much better emulates the range of the human visual system, and, as Mr. D states, the studio range present in video material is nowhere near the intensity variation that our eyes can perceive.

Obviously, I know there are so many other factors that would have to be considered, such as bandwidth costs, complete redesign of capture and encoding formats, and display technology would have to improve substantially.
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