New Design - Smallest most effecient Sub with Dual Opposed 18's lets build it

This is an interesting thread I want to keep track of.

With those dimensions you would probably be around 7 to 7.5 cu ft once you subtract bracing and drivers.

I know the Mal-x would want a bigger cabinet but with all that power you have and an EQ you might get it to work. Maybe add a Bassis to extend the LF. I am sure there are other drivers which should work better in that size enclosure though.

I can't wait to see what others come up with.

You say upper bass is what you want. How low does it need to go? You may be a candidate for a pro driver. Theres the other thread going on about JBL2242, 18sounds 18LW1400 and Acoustic Elegance TD18H. They'd all make some pretty awesome subs.

Mach 5 IXL 18.2.2. A pair in just under 7.5 ft3 will give you an F3 of 35hz. Xmax with 2000W isn't exceeded until 20hz, of course if you add EQ power handling will drop significantly (6db boost at 20hz will only need 500W for xmax).

Dare I say the LMS ultra. Illka's tests were in a ~3.5ft enclosure IIRC

I second the lms. If you can find them they will work in that size enclosure, can get very low, and absolutely has the best upper bass reproduction I have heard. You just have to start a house to house search for them.

Thirded.

With the pretty much no availability of that driver we may need to find warp a different driver. I just looked at some of the soundsplinter stuff and they all like larger enclosures and might not be the cleanest sounding in the upper ranges. I haven't looked to see what it will do, but what about the re xxx? I think it likes a larger box, but with eq it could probably pull it off. It definitely has excursion to spare. The sound quality is just a half step below the lms too.

Well lets see. The drivers should be either 2ohm or 8ohm nominal in order to get a final 4 ohm load with a pair and maximize the amplifier power, which when you are stuffing 2 18's in a 7.5 cu ft box you will need power to hit the lows. Other impedences could work but a 4 ohm final load would be best.

LMS 5400 or Ultra is the best driver I know of for the job, but 6 will be hella expensive and they are unavailable. Still this would be #1.

Mal-X GenII could work, but it'll give you an 8ohm nominal load.

Mach5 IXL's might work, but I think you'd be stepping down in performance going from the Mal X's to these.

ED190v2's See above

RE XXX needs way more than 3.5ft per driver. NOT recommended. + WAY expensive.

RLP18D4 Is this available? It could be made to work, but I believe the Mal-X may be a better fit for this kind of thing.

Some of the Pro audio 18's or even 21"s can work in small spaces but they will have a very high F3 around 70hz or more usually, which would require tons of boost in the range that requires excursion they don't have and they are not optomized for <30hz. The exception would be the Worx 18's or TC Beehive style drivers which have a solid 20mm xmax. Maybe the new BMS.

Why only look at 18's Patrick? 4 AE AV15H's model ok in 7 cu ft sealed (you will need a ton of boost though). Under 2 cu ft per driver seems a bit too compressed to me but you could ask John what his thoughts are. You could stuff them in there some how. Maybe you could use 4 AV12's instead? If you aren't dead set on dual opposed you could wait for the new Mal-X 21" and replace all of your 18's with those. Other than that maybe Kevin could work with you on getting some D4 GenII Mal-X 18's.

I'm sure Bosso will weigh in with some good ideas.

The LMS5400 would be the best and I think your upgraditus would be solved for a good long time so the expense would be worth it. If you were to order 6 of them then maybe Thilo would be willing to make up a special order for you? If he needs an even bigger order to make a run then hit us all up here at the forum and I am sure there will be some more happy to pick a few as well. I am down for a pair.

Maybe you could hit up Kyle here on the forums and float the idea by him as he is a sympathetic bass head like the rest of us.

I would definitely give it a shot. The only downside I could see is they really like power but then again your internal organs would probably give up before the 6 LMS run out of power

There's one LMS5400 for sale in the classifieds here (I PM'd with him, he's looking to get $850): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/vbcla...do=ad&id=10811

Good luck finding the other 5

I would like to know if there is any further word on the new lms drivers that I have heard that may come out. Release date? New specs? Price? I did read somewhere the price is going to be VERY high but who knows.

I am with ricci in that you shouldn't just limit yourself to 18 inch drivers. With 15's your options really open up and I think you could still edge a submersive if properly designed with a good driver.

One thing should be said if you are planning three dual driver subwoofers. When you get to running reference level with a single driver it gets strained and doesn't sound nearly as good as at lower volumes. When the volume is raised because you have multiple drivers they don't have to work nearly as hard and the sound quality goes up. In doing this you could get something like 6 of the 19ov.2's and get plenty of good sound when they are not being pushed to their limits. Plus the fact that you could probably get all six of them for the price of one lms and power them with just two of your amps.

I would hit up Kyle though. He may be able to get you something together. Maybe.

Please don't turn to the darkside, we can't handle 2 of you

They should join forces, and together, they could be more powerful than Kyle himself! Two of Vas's drivers in Warp's tiny enclosures......yessss....I have foreseen it........

Vas drivers? I never knew you could make a driver out of hot air

Took the words right outta my mouth.

This is the way to go, no doubt. 22"X22"x28", adding top plate and bottom plate, 33" high O.A.

Fire one up, one down, one front and one back (which can be turned 90 degrees to become one left/one right).

It will not need a ton of boost. It will be clean like you've never heard. It will do mid bass like you've never heard from a sub. It will virtually eliminate extraneous color from coupled vibration transmissions. Most importantly, its sensitivity will be 97dB 1W/1M vs, for example, 2X MX at 91dB. That's 1KW vs 4KW, which means the 3KW difference is available for boost-only transients down low.

6dB is perfectly fine in large room, high playback level apps. 9dB boost is all you'll need with proper room loading and moderately high playback levels.

Two of these will seriously break balls.

(That would be 8X15", with which I have some limited experience).

Bosso

Hey Patrick,

I have long ago posted about what I had eyed for a SubMersive XL, which is what you are describing, which was put on the shelf for some newer designs evolving from the Terraform and similar work which will be called the SubMersive 2, which is different from what you are describing in function, but would look very similar outwardly.

Two sealed boxes each with 4 AV15-X drivers. That's such a great idea! I wish I had thought of it earlier.

/me glances at an old Unibox model.

Damn, this thread has me thinking about that type of box!

I already had the driver in Unibox and a quad of them has some incredible potential, even if you do need to EQ. Each would be capable of 120dB @ 20Hz half space by the time you hit Xmax. Qt=0.7 got 240L for it, so not large by some standards either. The 100dB sensitivity is nice too.

how about some bms 18n850's. they work well in smaller sized enclosures.
sealed, 4-5 cubic footers per driver places the impedance peak at about 50hz. this will minimize current requirements from your amp for most music applications. pretty low qes (good magnetic damping) and high power handling (lower power compression) are other benefits. bms conservatively rates xmax, so add a bit for comparability.

if you want totally sick upper mid-bass punch, drop a couple bms 15s430's in 5 cubic footer enclosures...one sub in each corner. for some though, these are a little too tight. even though most folks say they want tight subs, sometimes a little flab, or fatness, is subjectively better.

by the way, i think you flamed me pretty hard in the past when i suggested your mains weren't up to the task of producing the kind of mid-upper bass spl for which you were looking.

can we be friends now? ;-)

on second thought, with all your maelstroms and the massive power that you have behind them, maybe all you need is a pair of ported, high efficiency, 15"s to round out your upper bass. how about placing a ported bms 15s430 (or jbl 2226h, or equivalent) alongside each of your mains.

3 cubic footers, tuned to 40-45hz, with a couple simple amps (ep2500/4000s), should blast you up into the 130's db, from around 50hz up. cross to your sick subs around 50hz or so and you should have no regrets...and no hearing...lol.

"the Mal-X is a great driver, but I can't get this working with those drivers, they need a bit larger box "

I question what not working means; with the box volume limitation you've imposed, most any pair of 18's will be power/thermal limited and within a dB or two of the same output, per HIL (Hoffman's Iron Law).

But model some of the alternatives and see for yourself.

bosso,

"Most importantly, its sensitivity will be 97dB 1W/1M vs, for example, 2X MX at 91dB. That's 1KW vs 4KW, which means the 3KW difference is available for boost-only transients down low."

The sensitivity increase only holds for upper freq; every driver added to the same size box effectively reduces volume available per driver, raises Fb, and reduces low bass efficiency - HIL again.

I'd be partial to the AE TD18 for midbass punch and high power handling.

Bosso, why stop at 4 x 15s per cabinet? have 1 woofer on each face of the box, 6 x 15"?