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**The Official Seaton Sound Speaker Thread** - Page 12

post #331 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilsonL View Post

What changed your mind?

Hearing Catalysts.
post #332 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Has anyone compared the cat12's to Martin Logans?

Yes, absolutely no contest when it comes to HT. For 2-ch, you might lose a little depth. Once you go active DSP, there's no going back...
post #333 of 764
Somewhere in this or another thread I read Mark say that the Cats were designed to have the smoothest frequency response when flush mounted, or baffle mounted, or something like that.... can someone elaborate? I have always been underthe impression that pretty much all freestanding speakers sounded best when out from the front and side walls as much as possible.

On a side note, if the cats indeed are a worthy upgrade, the sale of my CLXs and Emotiva amps should basically pay for a 3 set of cats and at least one submersive!

The sparks may be too deep to mount on my side walls... will have to see what can be done about that.

How do the submersives compare to the JL fathom f113s?
post #334 of 764
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Well, today I plopped down for 3 Cat 8C's, for L//C/R, to replace my Ascendacoustics Sierra-1's. The Ascends are outstanding for their price class, but I've heard Catalysts several times and it's clear that this is going to be a massive upgrade (and splurge!) for my HT. My room is only a bit over 2000 cuft, so you can well imagine. Will go great with my SubMersive HP that I've had a couple of years. Nice to becoming more of a 'Seaton shop'!

Congratulations and welcome to the club Will. Now all you need to do is get the Sony VPL1000 and you'll never leave your theater! You only live once...

Chris
post #335 of 764
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Somewhere in this or another thread I read Mark say that the Cats were designed to have the smoothest frequency response when flush mounted, or baffle mounted, or something like that.... can someone elaborate? I have always been underthe impression that pretty much all freestanding speakers sounded best when out from the front and side walls as much as possible.

On a side note, if the cats indeed are a worthy upgrade, the sale of my CLXs and Emotiva amps should basically pay for a 3 set of cats and at least one submersive!

The sparks may be too deep to mount on my side walls... will have to see what can be done about that.

How do the submersives compare to the JL fathom f113s?

Yes, I remember reading Mark saying a flush-mounted baffle wall being an ideal alignment. IIRC, he said something about fitting the speakers up but still using the chamfered edges for diffraction amelioration, or something to that effect. I don't recall seeing anyone's theater configured as such but Mark will certainly be able to elaborate. Art Sonneborne, Cubesys and fugueness all use an AT screen. Fugueness has his speakers out in the open, while Art and Itai have enclosures. This is certainly the direction I will head in once I move to larger quarters. The big disadvantage to doing it the way I am is that the center speaker is laying horizontally below the plasma. Not good.

The Cats are sealed and employ controlled directivity so side and front wall reflections are not nearly as problematic as with most loudspeakers, particularly ML's. Soft room treatments are still necessary but can also be overdone, leading to a over-dampened effect which leaves the room too dead.

Chris
post #336 of 764
Has Mark made any recommendation of the x-over for Cat 8C's and a SubMersiveHP?
post #337 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Has Mark made any recommendation of the x-over for Cat 8C's and a SubMersiveHP?

In choosing crossover frequencies the speaker and subwoofer really only set an allowable or potential crossover frequency range, not what is best for your system. As an example, the little M&K S150's were one time a very common home theater speaker, and they sound rather nice... above 80-120Hz. If you wanted any sort of dynamics and large scale sound, they needed to be crossed about 100Hz as the small sealed woofers were just not up to the task below there where the required high excursions would cloud the midrange and intelligibility. Cases such as the M&K's are one of the reasons I made sure the SubMersive was capable and smooth out to 200Hz to better enable good behavior with higher crossover frequencies.

The 8C's have a nice sealed roll off that is specified to 65Hz. In room, near a wall, that can easily extend a good bit lower, and a pair of 8" woofers with 500W motivating them give them quite a bit of capability. Of course capability is relative to the room and expectations. I intended the 8C's to be used with a crossover in the 60-100Hz range. In-room response dips at the listening position from the speaker or subwoofer can give cause to shift the crossover toward 100Hz or lower it to 60Hz, where I recommend most start at 80Hz. For those with the largest of rooms using multiple SubMersives or similar with the most ambitious dynamic/output expectations, stay above 70-80Hz with the crossover, although I hardly expect that will be a concern in your application.
post #338 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

In choosing crossover frequencies the speaker and subwoofer really only set an allowable or potential crossover frequency range, not what is best for your system. As an example, the little M&K S150's were one time a very common home theater speaker, and they sound rather nice... above 80-120Hz. If you wanted any sort of dynamics and large scale sound, they needed to be crossed about 100Hz as the small sealed woofers were just not up to the task below there where the required high excursions would cloud the midrange and intelligibility. Cases such as the M&K's are one of the reasons I made sure the SubMersive was capable and smooth out to 200Hz to better enable good behavior with higher crossover frequencies.

The 8C's have a nice sealed roll off that is specified to 65Hz. In room, near a wall, that can easily extend a good bit lower, and a pair of 8" woofers with 500W motivating them give them quite a bit of capability. Of course capability is relative to the room and expectations. I intended the 8C's to be used with a crossover in the 60-100Hz range. In-room response dips at the listening position from the speaker or subwoofer can give cause to shift the crossover toward 100Hz or lower it to 60Hz, where I recommend most start at 80Hz. For those with the largest of rooms using multiple SubMersives or similar with the most ambitious dynamic/output expectations, stay above 70-80Hz with the crossover, although I hardly expect that will be a concern in your application.

Thanks much for the info, Mark--very clear. I'll run Audyssey XT32 to see what it comes up with and then take your advice and use XTZ to see what it looks like. Will be fun playing with all this, at least for a while, until I forget it and just enjoy!
post #339 of 764
What is the best pre/pro for use with the cats for around 2k used.
post #340 of 764
Thread Starter 
^^^

"Best" is subjective but it probably boils down to which room correction scheme and features you favor. I use the Denon 4311 in preamp mode with very good results.

Chris
post #341 of 764
Integra 80.2 is less than that used.. its incredible... 80.3 is slightly more new....no real benefit over the 80.2 though.
post #342 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post
Somewhere in this or another thread I read Mark say that the Cats were designed to have the smoothest frequency response when flush mounted, or baffle mounted, or something like that.... can someone elaborate? I have always been underthe impression that pretty much all freestanding speakers sounded best when out from the front and side walls as much as possible.

On a side note, if the cats indeed are a worthy upgrade, the sale of my CLXs and Emotiva amps should basically pay for a 3 set of cats and at least one submersive!

The sparks may be too deep to mount on my side walls... will have to see what can be done about that.

How do the submersives compare to the JL fathom f113s?
Attached is an article about Baffle Walls. It's not Catalyst-specific, but the concepts are the same. It explains why baffle walls are actually better than free standing speakers placed away from the walls.

How do the Submersives compare to JL F113's? More output, deeper extension and *much* better behavior at the limits... the Submersive HP's are better subs in virtually every aspect. The only reason to consider JL's is if you need the smaller form factor.

Craig

 

040601_baffled_again.pdf 182.0537109375k . file
post #343 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

How do the Submersives compare to JL F113's? More output, deeper extension and *much* better behavior at the limits... the Submersive HP's are better subs in virtually every aspect. The only reason to consider JL's is if you need the smaller form factor.

Craig

this may help him also

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2312
post #344 of 764
Thread Starter 
@dmoney76:

XLR's are designed for low interference in long runs and have nice locking connectors. For short runs there is little difference so if you have a prepro with RCA's you can just buy 1' rca to xlr convertors. The presence or lack of xlr jacks on the back of a prepro would not be a deciding factor if I was looking at something like the Integra 80.2 vs. the Denon 4311. The Pioneer SC-09 I used to own required a separate sub EQ (antimode) but with Audyssey xt32 there is no need. xt32 works very well.

Chris
post #345 of 764
I currently have a sc25 and antimode but do you find the denon sounds better with the cats? What rears are you using?
post #346 of 764
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmoney76 View Post

I currently have a sc25 and antimode but do you find the denon sounds better with the cats? What rears are you using?

2 channel is indistinguishable. Much, much better for multichannel music and film. Not even close. I attribute this solely to Audyssey xt32. I use Master & Commander on dvd as my ultimate reference and with xt32, there is an uncanny placement of sounds where they are supposed to be. An example that surprised me is during the first battle where men are running on deck above the camera shot, I heard their stomps above my head. MCACC never accomplished this sort of immersive staging with the cats.

I don't have rears right now. 5.1 only which is pretty freakin good with the big cats as lcr and 2 sparks for side surrounds. Your SC-25 + antimode would work fine but yes, I prefer the latest iteration of Audyssey.

Chris
post #347 of 764
Always wondered but never asked. Does anyone know what drivers are used in the Cat 8's and 12's? Just always been curious about it.

I think I found my answers. Seems he uses custom drivers, but the first iterations were B&C coax and AE TD12s as far as I know.

Thanks
Moto
post #348 of 764
Just posted this in the JTR thread as well. I'm torn.

Now that I upgraded to a high quality sub (Seaton Submersive.. almost bought a cap sealed), I now realize that I eventually want to upgrade all my speakers as well to something from JTR or Seaton. The SubM was a tremendous upgrade, and everyone who sees it thinks I'm nuts because of its size until they hear it.

Although Seaton's Catalysts (12-C) have gotten my attention for L/C/R, the price tag is a bit too much for me to realistically afford anytime soon, even if I started going Deuce Bigalow and prostituting myself.

The Triple 12's and 8's from JTR seem to be the next best thing, and would be much more affordable for me. My question that I haven't really seen answered before, is how do the Triple 12's (LP and vented) sound compared to the active monitor Catalyst 12-C? My room is only about 3000 cu ft and I'm more about quality and clarity over deafening SPL.

Is the difference in active dsp vs passive that much more noticeable? Is the difference in price and value ratio in the JTR speakers that much of a better choice for me?
post #349 of 764
^ ^ ^ ^

Like bhazard, I also would like to one day get a Submersive sub (or Submersive HP) and combine it with either a JTR or Seaton speaker set up. I would love to be able to hear and compare the two speaker brands to let my ears do the talking, but I am not really sure where a demo could be found. I have no doubt that the Seaton sparks or catalysts would rock, but I would like to compare the Sparks to the JTR T8's and the Catalysts to the JTR T12's.

Having previously owned M&K MPS 2510's & 2525's and active 2510p & 2525p's, my recollection was that the active/self-amplified speakers were more dynamic. I am asssuming this would be the same case with the Seatons, but it would be nice to hear the JTR and Seatons to compare.
post #350 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

Just posted this in the JTR thread as well. I'm torn.

Now that I upgraded to a high quality sub (Seaton Submersive.. almost bought a cap sealed), I now realize that I eventually want to upgrade all my speakers as well to something from JTR or Seaton. The SubM was a tremendous upgrade, and everyone who sees it thinks I'm nuts because of its size until they hear it.

Although Seaton's Catalysts (12-C) have gotten my attention for L/C/R, the price tag is a bit too much for me to realistically afford anytime soon, even if I started going Deuce Bigalow and prostituting myself.

The Triple 12's and 8's from JTR seem to be the next best thing, and would be much more affordable for me. My question that I haven't really seen answered before, is how do the Triple 12's (LP and vented) sound compared to the active monitor Catalyst 12-C? My room is only about 3000 cu ft and I'm more about quality and clarity over deafening SPL.

Is the difference in active dsp vs passive that much more noticeable? Is the difference in price and value ratio in the JTR speakers that much of a better choice for me?

You might also consider 3 Catalyst 8C's for your L,C,R, the little brother of the 12C, though still very capable.
post #351 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

You might also consider 3 Catalyst 8C's for your L,C,R, the little brother of the 12C, though still very capable.

Are those available yet? They're not listed on the products page.
post #352 of 764
post #353 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bibby View Post

^

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=4775840

here's the link for you cmryan

Ah, thank you. Seaton makes excellent speakers but his site could use a little touching up.
post #354 of 764
How would the performance of the following set-ups for the mains compare?

3 Catalyst 8C's for L/R/C with 2 Submersives for the L/R Channels

vs.

2 Catalyst 12C's for L/R and a 8C for center channel

vs.

3 Catalyst 12C's for L/R/C

Questions,

1) Do people agree that the 8C's with submersives would be better?

2) Is there a way to hook up one sub woofer to handle the bass output to L&R mains, or would 2 be a must (i.e. 1 for the left and 1 for the right)?

3) Would the Catalyst 8C work as a good center channel with 12C's on the L&R?
post #355 of 764
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post

How would the performance of the following set-ups for the mains compare?

3 Catalyst 8C's for L/R/C with 2 Submersives for the L/R Channels

vs.

2 Catalyst 12C's for L/R and a 8C for center channel

vs.

3 Catalyst 12C's for L/R/C

Questions,

1) Do people agree that the 8C's with submersives would be better?

2) Is there a way to hook up one sub woofer to handle the bass output to L&R mains, or would 2 be a must (i.e. 1 for the left and 1 for the right)?

3) Would the Catalyst 8C work as a good center channel with 12C's on the L&R?

Yes, the first scenario would be best in my opinion. Mark has stated the Catalysts (either the 8C or 12C) really should be part of a larger system containing capable subs. Even the big 12C's are not designed to be full range.

I only have one SubMersive which works just fine for stereo or multichannel use. It's not "hooked up" to the mains so to speak, rather it's all routed through the avr or pre/pro. The same would apply if I had duals. Some guys talk about "stereo bass" but I don't understand the point of it.

I see no reason why the 8C wouldn't be a great center channel flanked by 12C's. OTOH, if I was budgeting for a full Seaton rig I would pop for 8C's as LCR and use the spare money for dual SubMersives and a couple of Sparks for surround duty. YMMV.

Chris
post #356 of 764
Thanks for the response Chris! Appreciate the opinion

I realize that it probably isn't the most realistic thing to have submersives tied into the main channels, but I got inspired from reading posts on this forum.

I tend to agree with your assessment for budgeting for a full set-up. Having 3 Catalyst 8C's combined with sparks for the surrounds and 2 Submersives would be a pretty incredible set-up. I want to hear the opening scene of Gladiator like it was intended to be heard! Roma Victor!!
post #357 of 764
Go big or go home. If I do Catalysts I'd have to do the top performing 12-C for LCR, and 8's and sparks for surround. Just need some lotto winnings or some sort of big financial windfall to come my way... or years of saving.
post #358 of 764
That would indeed be a kick-tail set-up bhazard. I would imagine that even utilizing 5 sparks and 2 submersives would sound pretty impressive.
post #359 of 764
I currently have M&K S-150's and my L/C/R and have been pleased with them but I have been looking at upgrading. I might have to do it in stages as was thinking of this combination for my front 3 channels so please let me know if this would be a way to go that would sound good together and a noticeable upgrade.

For me the center channel speaker is the most important and I would either want to get a Catalyst 12C or 8C for the center channel. For the L&R I was thinking of just getting 2 of the Sparks for those. Would this combo make sense or should I just get something like 3 8C's or maybe just 3 Sparks so they are all the same. Price is a factor and I really did want to get a 12C or 8C for the center but I might just have the money only for the Sparks as the left and right. Also, are 3 Sparks going to be alot better than my 3 M&K S150's?

These would currently be hooked to a Denon AVR-5800 and maybe a Denon AVR-4311 in the near future and will be used in a 15x15x8 room for 95% Home Theater usage.

Thanks,
Mike
post #360 of 764
I'm replacing my 3 Ascendacoustics Sierra-1's--a superb speaker in its price range--with 3 Catalyst 8C's, and the first 2 of them arrived today. They are of course in quite a different price range than the Ascends, but they are also in a totally different league in audio performance. With only 2 Cats at present I'm omitting the center speaker. Listening to some music cd's (the Eagles--I'm an oldtimer!), the level of dynamism and detail--without any hint of harshness--is amazing. I am no audiophile by any stretch, but even I can tell the higher level of sound quality.

Together with a SubMersive HP (only 1--my room is only ~ 2100 cu ft) I am firmly in the Seaton camp, and am sure this is where I will stay.

I should also re-enforce what we all know, i.e., that Mark is a perfectionist. The Cats arrived later than I expected, but Mark doesn't send anything out until it is thoroughly checked out, and for this I am grateful. (And man, are these things are heavy (~65 lbs)! I sure that handling the big brother Cat12's could not be a one man job.)
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