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**The Official Seaton Sound Speaker Thread** - Page 22

post #631 of 764
That makes me feel better. Thanks. Moving far?
post #632 of 764
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhrischuk View Post

That makes me feel better. Thanks. Moving far?

Not too far Mike, just about a half hour away into Bucks county. Can't stand the traffic around Montgomeryville anymore! On the plus side, I'm going to make sure the new house has a true dedicated theater space with room for a projector and a BIG acoustically transparent screen. biggrin.gif The Kuro is a fantastic display but there's no substitute for the full theater experience.

Chris
post #633 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by classicrecording View Post

Bill then moved onto an Eric Clapton DVD, which I am not familiar with, but the recording has to be one of the best of that style of music I have heard.

That is one of the greatest recordings I've ever heard. Micro dynamics and an amazing mix. Definitely one I'll be buying. Easily the best drum recording I've ever heard.
post #634 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

That is one of the greatest recordings I've ever heard. Micro dynamics and an amazing mix. Definitely one I'll be buying. Easily the best drum recording I've ever heard.
Can you guys tell me the name of the recording.
post #635 of 764
I'm interested also
post #636 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedirun View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

That is one of the greatest recordings I've ever heard. Micro dynamics and an amazing mix. Definitely one I'll be buying. Easily the best drum recording I've ever heard.
Can you guys tell me the name of the recording.

The name of the CD/DVD combo is "Eric Clapton - Sessions for Robert J"
http://www.amazon.com/Eric-Clapton-Sessions-Robert-Johnson/dp/B0006BGX2C/ref=sr_1_83?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1371559037&sr=1-83&keywords=eric+clapton

Select the DTS 5.1 mix on the DVD and enjoy the absolutely stunning sound. The DVD is broken into four sessions (four different recording locations). Session #1 was recored in Checkendon England and it's that session with world class drummer Steve Gadd that blows people away. Other artists include: Billy Preston (keyboards) , Chris Stainton (piano), Doyle Bramhall II (rhythm guitar), and Nathan East (bass guitar).

So if you like Robert Johnson, Eric Clapton, Steve Gadd, Blues, or just want some musical reference material, this is a must buy for your collection.

-- Bill --
post #637 of 764
Some boxes showed up today...


Plus the Denon...


Starting the setup...

post #638 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhrischuk View Post

Some boxes showed up today...

See, aren't you glad you came to the GTG? Look what we made you do... tongue.gif
post #639 of 764
Hey Mike. Happy to see that your speakers arrived. ENJOY!!!

-- Bill --
post #640 of 764
Congrats, welcome to the club!
post #641 of 764
I'm starting to worry about my ears
post #642 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhrischuk View Post

I'm starting to worry about my ears

You are aware that volume level is adjustable, right? Just checking... tongue.gif

Although rarely demonstrated at anything other then "make my ears bleed" levels, the Cat's actually have very good low-level resolution. You really don't lose out on the dynamics at more reasonable volumes.
post #643 of 764
Has anyone managed to get an update on when the spark v2 are going to be available
post #644 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewa View Post

Has anyone managed to get an update on when the spark v2 are going to be available

There hasn't been any word/updates from Mark for quite some time now. Unfortuniately Mark is not the best when it comes to meeting target dates. Construction of our new home will most likely begin next spring with a July/August move in date. I wouldn't bet that the new Sparks will be available then. rolleyes.gif

That being said, I'm thinking of possibly getting a pair Sparks for the rears and moving my existing Cat8's from the rears to the FOH and use them as wides. Anyone here have wide surrounds? What do you guys think about this idea? I've personally never heard any HT that had wides so I'm not sure it's worth doing.

-- Bill --
post #645 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac_hs10 View Post

you only got two cats12? how do they sound?

Incredible. Only two? If I only had one I would understand your comment smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by rx-8 View Post

There hasn't been any word/updates from Mark for quite some time now. Unfortuniately Mark is not the best when it comes to meeting target dates. Construction of our new home will most likely begin next spring with a July/August move in date. I wouldn't bet that the new Sparks will be available then. rolleyes.gif

That being said, I'm thinking of possibly getting a pair Sparks for the rears and moving my existing Cat8's from the rears to the FOH and use them as wides. Anyone here have wide surrounds? What do you guys think about this idea? I've personally never heard any HT that had wides so I'm not sure it's worth doing.

-- Bill --

Bill,

Personally, and obviously don't take this as a professional's opinion, I think the surround speakers get way less power/signal sent to them compared to the mains and center. They only add direction. Strong bass isn't required in surrounds since lows aren't directional.
With that said, I think 8's are overkill for that application. But then it depends on how big your actual system is.
post #646 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewa View Post

Has anyone managed to get an update on when the spark v2 are going to be available

When they're ready. I posted a little further response on our forum.
post #647 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

Does anyone know the crossover frequency between the 8" and 12" drivers? A disturbing trend I've noticed the past several years in an effort to dig really deep is to cross over to woofers really low, leaving a single mid - sometimes as small as 3.5" - to handle a really large FR. It would be great to see these crossed over relatively high - leave the bass to the subs.

Hi Steve,

Cool to see you pop in after so long.

Exact crossover frequencies get a little fuzzy with any deviation from textbook crossovers, but the dual 12" woofers hand off to the 8" midrange in the 200-250Hz range. This lower crossover, when combined with some trickery with the crossover shapes and DSP result in very modest narrowing of dispersion vertically and no discrete lobes (ie hot spots) off axis.

If you work out what a sealed 8" driver moving just 6mm each way is capable of, you see the limits in the 200-300Hz range are pretty lofty. Now remember that around the crossover point the combination of the mid and woofers result in 3-6dB more total output... The midrange is in fact amplifier limited by design, even when directly powered by its 1000W ICEpower module.
post #648 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

When they're ready. I posted a little further response on our forum.
Thanks, I saw your update, just thought I'd ask around here as it been quiet and was hoping someone here may have got a recent update.
post #649 of 764
200-250hz isn't as low as some of the other 3 ways out there, but still a bit low. A single quality 8" might well be capable of doing some really nice things down to even 50hz, but with really low crossovers, more and more 3 ways are actually like 2 ways in a standard 80hz crossover system. In a really low crossed 3 way, the woofers contribution to the cost isn't even with their contribution to the playback, sometimes only a single octave.

This is not any type of critique on your speakers, I've never heard them, just an observation on a design trend I am seeing more and more.
post #650 of 764
What do you all think about using a power conditioner to shut my CAT's down between use?

I'm having some issues with my new Denon 4520ci getting hit with AC spikes when turning light switches on and off. I thinking a power conditioner might remove the AC line noise and give me 12v trigger power on/off control.

Suggestions for decent power conditioners anyone?
post #651 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhrischuk View Post

What do you all think about using a power conditioner to shut my CAT's down between use?

I'm having some issues with my new Denon 4520ci getting hit with AC spikes when turning light switches on and off. I thinking a power conditioner might remove the AC line noise and give me 12v trigger power on/off control.

Suggestions for decent power conditioners anyone?


Others have a variety of good suggestions, however Torus, in my opinion, are the best. I like the RM series. Nyal Mellor of Acoustic Frontiers sells them. The Plitron based Torus offerings are outstanding,.. but expensive.

But, a huge caveat accompanies power products. Most gear/scenarios really don't need such isolation and protection. Many such products can actually hurt performance, eliciting a choke-point of sorts that impedes adequate instantaneous current delivery.


What equipment would you plug into such a piece? ie., total load?
post #652 of 764
My equipment is a Denon 4520ci custom setup using only four amps at 150wpc to the side and rear surrounds.
My L/C/R are Seaton Catalyst 12c for LR and a Seaton Catalyst 8c which are all self powered (active). Total wattage on those ICE amps is 5000wpc (L 2000w, C 1000w, R 2000w)
Unfortunately those are line driven amps so a power conditioner might not be a good thing for them?
Now if I wanted my SVS sub plugged into the conditioner I would need an extension cord. Is this common?



I've got the issue narrowed down. I unplugged everything and started methodically returning everything back. As I installed each component I checked for pops by changing the ceiling fan speeds.

The problem appears when I connect the SVS PB13 Ultra with the BASH amp.

The issue I am having is for some reason when the sub is plugged into an outlet close to my system, it emits RFI cracks and pops back through the low level input and back out to the rest of my system when I turn light switches on and change the speed of my ceiling fans. . When I use an extension cord and plug in far away, the issue goes away.

Would grounding the BASH amp help since it only has 2-prong plug?
Edited by mhrischuk - 6/23/13 at 11:22am
post #653 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

200-250hz isn't as low as some of the other 3 ways out there, but still a bit low..

A ~200Hz highpass on an 8" midrange is "a bit low"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

In a really low crossed 3 way, the woofers contribution to the cost isn't even with their contribution to the playback, sometimes only a single octave.

Only if one assumes a highpass on the mains. It is, if the loudspeakers have sufficient volume displacement and the right alignment (monopole all the way down, i.e. sealed, rather than monopole above tuning and dipole below tuning, i.e. vented), to leave the mains full-range, so as to have 2-3 more sources playing in the modal region to smooth response and minimize spatial variance.
Edited by DS-21 - 6/23/13 at 7:04pm
post #654 of 764
Listening to Stevie Ray Vaughan and now Robin Trower.

You know, there are absolutely different classes of sound reproduction depending on your specific setup and particularly the type of loudspeaker and amplification you choose.

Let us not hide behind the fact that we may actually like what a certain setup does regardless of what we may all consider as "perfect translation"

Before:

7.1
SVS PB13 Ultra Sub
Pioneer SC-05 AVR
Bryston 14Bsst powering two Lecacy Focus SE
Paradigm ceilings surrounds and rears powered by the Pioneer.


After:

7.1
SVS PB13 Ultra Sub
Denon 4520CI AVR
Seaton Cat 12c And Seaton CAT8 Center (All self powered)
Paradigm ceilings surrounds and rears powered by the Denon

At first I kinda miss the Legacys for their littoral sound reproduction. I mean those speakers are about as accurate as you can get.
The guy I sold them to was blown away and called me to let me know. He claimed he had listened to many higher end speakers in the $100,000 range and said these guys were over and above.

Back to the current setup.

I do not have optimum conditions for reflection. I am not a smart audiophile... lot's to learn.

The Seatons have a presence and power that is addictive.
I think what I just discovered is the difference between ribbon and compression drive tweeter technology.
I wonder if there is a middle ground though.
post #655 of 764
Quote:
A ~200Hz highpass on an 8" midrange is "a bit low"?
Quote:
Only if one assumes a highpass on the mains
In a standard 80hz crossover system, at what point do some of these 3 ways really even benefit from being 3 ways? The new SVS speakers cross over to dual 8" woofers at 160hz - just one octave of range for what probably amounts to a lot of cost. Similar, but not as bad, on these. As for highpass on the mains, it is extremely difficult for a LCR to handle bass as well as one or a few stand alone subs, for a variety of reasons.

Not trying to stir anything, just wondering why it's done. How about a tweeter handling 3 octaves, a mid(s) handling 3 octaves, a woofer(s) handling 3 octaves, and a sub(s) handling 3 ocaves. That will cover from 20khz to 10hz, each driver or set of drivers contributing equally - dynamics, sensitivity, and distortion would all benefit - just as a generalization.
post #656 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

Quote:
A ~200Hz highpass on an 8" midrange is "a bit low"?
Quote:
Only if one assumes a highpass on the mains
In a standard 80hz crossover system, at what point do some of these 3 ways really even benefit from being 3 ways?***

A better question is, "what use is a 'standard 80Hz crossover system'?" And the answer is, "not much." That might have been a non-horrible way to optimize a system as best one could when the tools available were likely to be a disk with test-tones and a handheld SPL meter, with professionals having maybe a 1/3-octave RTA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

The new SVS speakers cross over to dual 8" woofers at 160hz - just one octave of range for what probably amounts to a lot of cost. Similar, but not as bad, on these.

SVS does some remarkable things. I mean, a Peerless XXLS12 in a solid and nicely-finished cabinet with a powerful amp and well-optimized limiters for $650 shipped? That's probably the best value going in audio today! But their mains have never impressed me in either design or execution. That said, the really dumb design decision in their new speakers isn't 2 8's down low, but a 6" mid with a tweeter on a 180deg waveguide and a 2kHz claimed crossover point.

That said, I suspect the big cabinet and twin 8" woofers are there because those speakers are targeted to people who won't use subs with them for at least part of their listening. The middle ones seems to be the "tops" of the big ones, basically.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

As for highpass on the mains, it is extremely difficult for a LCR to handle bass as well as one or a few stand alone subs, for a variety of reasons.

Of course, in this specific case we're talking about two 12" woofers per side with likely 15mm or so of xmax. And they're in a closed box - vented mains are rarely a good idea - so they will stay monopoles and have their excursion controlled by the trapped air volume.

Furthermore, mains don't need to handle bass as well as subs. They don't need to have much output down low to meaningfully contribute to smoother upper bass response. They just need to stay monopole, and have cabinets small enough to keep woofer excursion down low under control.

There's also another aspect at play in these speakers. While the Catalyst's concentric midrange has a pretty long throw, keep in mind that the mid cone is also the waveguide for the tweeter! The more the midrange moves, the poorer a waveguide it becomes. Here's an interesting measurement of a smaller but IMO more sophisticated concentric driver (designed from the ground up to be concentric, rather than being standard parts adapted to a concentric configuration) showing the treble FR with the woofer cone ~3mm out, level, and ~3mm in.

So where the woofers come in likely has more to do with, as Mark alluded to above, getting good vertical pattern control (see also Smith) while minimizing midrange cone movement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

Not trying to stir anything, just wondering why it's done. How about a tweeter handling 3 octaves, a mid(s) handling 3 octaves, a woofer(s) handling 3 octaves, and a sub(s) handling 3 ocaves. That will cover from 20khz to 10hz, each driver or set of drivers contributing equally - dynamics, sensitivity, and distortion would all benefit - just as a generalization.

I do see where you're coming from. You're right that if the mains are going to highpassed, it doesn't make much sense to have largish woofers crossed over low.

I think the underlying issue is that the market - smarter players such as MS excepted - still hasn't figured out that they're designing mains wrong for modern systems. ("Modern" in my usage here has two elements. First, use of multiple subwoofers to smooth out the frequency response in the upper bass, and reduce spatial variance in the bass. Second, in-situ calibration with computer-based measurement software such as FuzzMeasure.)

Instead of venting mains and trying to get the lowest possible extension, the focus should be on efficiency and a cabinet designed to control mains woofer excursion so the mains can blend smoothly with multiple subwoofers in the modal region. But then the problem is that reviewers generally review "high end" speakers primarily as unaugmented stereo pairs. So speakers designed to the modern paradigm start with a strike against them. And the people who think more deeply about these sorts of issues tend to go DIY anyway (or buy speakers like the Catalysts)...
post #657 of 764
Do you not cross over to a sub(s) in your system? And if so, at what frequency is the crossover centered?
post #658 of 764
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

Do you not cross over to a sub(s) in your system? And if so, at what frequency is the crossover centered?

We're going a bit far afield of Mark's very thoughtfully-designed (can't say more, as I've not personally heard them) loudspeakers, but...that's probably a more difficult question to answer than you expected.

That said, let's start by defining terms. When I write "crossover" I mean both an electrical lowpass on the subs and a electrical highpass on the mains. When only one of those filters is in use, I use the appropriate term.

Previously, I could answer your question unambigiously, "no!" The mains ran full-range, with excursion controlled by the box's airspring and the 12" Dual Concentric driver's natural rolloff. (Their modeled F3 was maybe 65-70Hz.) The subwoofers were calibrated by sequentially folding them into the mains in using more-or-less the "old" Geddes method.. Keep in mind that those mains each had maybe ~15% the volume displacement of a Catalyst. Even with such comparatively limited volume displacement, overload was simply a non-issue with any program material I could throw at them. Yet they didn't need highpass filters beyond the acoustic highpass provided by their cabinet loading. They just needed augmentation to smooth upper bass response and extend the system down another couple octaves. (In an auditorium, or a domestic living room suffocated to bland deadness by silly and unsightly "room treatments," things may be different and highpass filters on even fairly capable mains may be required.)

Right now, I'm in the process of dialing in a complex system with mains that could be described as 3-way+sub or 4-way, so I can't say yes or no to your question. (Except for center, side surrounds, and rear surrounds. All those channels are highpassed wherever Anthem's ARC computations decided would be best. I honestly didn't even check.) The left and right speakers sit atop atop stands containing 12" woofers mounted low on the inside panel. I chose that "flanking sub" configuration for three reasons: smooth out response in the modal region, make more efficient use of space (as opposed to putting the left and right speakers on otherwise-useless pedestals), and ease of transport. The flanking subs are blended with the mains, and each of the other three subs folded in from there.

But as a general rule, unless one has skimpy mains or vented mains with ports that are hard to plug, I see no good reason to put an electrical highpass filter on them, and one very good reason (additional sources to smooth out response in the modal region) not to limit the mains by throwing an electrical highpass in front of them. With speakers like the Seaton Catalysts, where each mains speaker has ~2 liters of volume displacement with lots of power (and sensible limiting!) in closed boxes...let 'em run free!
post #659 of 764
I just got finished running 2 dedicated 20a lines to my HT. Something I meant to do but never got around to it.
Now that I'm done I would like a solution that....
  1. Conditions the incoming power without restricting the ICE amps
  2. Provides some surge protection
  3. Turns the three Catalysts on and off with the AVR 12v trigger
  4. Doesn't cost a small fortune


If the power conditioning is a no go because of the ICE amp requirements, is there a switching unit that has 120v outlets that just does that?
post #660 of 764
Mike - You can build a 12V triggered relay box/strip for under 40.00 that will allow easy turn on/off without restricting like most power conditioners will. Check out the pictures in my 'basement hangout' thread. One of these weekends I can walk you through building one, they are very simple to put together. I'm actually getting ready to build a couple more as well. You can get all of the parts except the relay at home depot or lowes.
Edited by Gorilla83 - 6/25/13 at 4:46am
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