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Titan 1080P 3D Dual Ultra Thread - Page 21

post #601 of 699
1/29/11 at 7:20am
Thread Starter 
Two different projectors like comparing apples to oranges..

Lumis uses a Dynamic Iris to increase on/off significantly, some experience artifacts with this, some do not, most do not notice.
Titan uses a Fixed aperture to increase on/off by approximately 100%, without any artifcating at all.

Lumis has very little lens adjustment.
Titan employs ILS lens feature with memories for focus, lens shift left right up down, Zoom in/out. The lens itself is about 8-9000$.

Lumis MSRP is around $35k I think, Titan 3D is more than double that.

Titan 3D is well 3D capable with triple flash 3D frame packed per specs (though wolfgang says slightly different)
Lumis requires an additional projector for 3D.
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post #602 of 699
1/29/11 at 9:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post

Lumis requires an additional projector for 3D.

Hey Lon Sim2 has added 3D to the Lumis. If its not out just yet it is coming very soon. Previous Lumis owners can upgrade. They were running a special upgrade offer for a while.
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post #603 of 699
1/29/11 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post
Hey Lon Sim2 has added 3D to the Lumis. If its not out just yet it is coming very soon. Previous Lumis owners can upgrade. They were running a special upgrade offer for a while.
hi Alan
i read that too. very nice of them
do you know if the D80E will be upgraded or its replacement be 3D and when ?

thanks

Lon: very interesting comparison. of course one is twice the price of the other
can we say the LUMIS with the T2 lens was clocked (can't find the thread back) at 900:1 ANSI "with" 1900lumens and "with" 20.000:1 on off ?
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post #604 of 699
1/29/11 at 1:02pm
The original target for the Lumis, single box, 3D solution was end of 1Q, but this was just an estimate. Still waiting for more info, but likely sometime between late March into June. Sim2 indicated the "upgrade" from 2D Lumis to 3D would msrp at $11,995, and the upgrade will only be available for the current single box Lumis (not the HOST version). The promo that ended in December was giving anyone that purchased a new single box Lumis a coupon good for a free upgrade to 3D, when available.

There is currently no talk of 3D migrating to D80 or other Sim2 products, but I guess it's always possible this could change going forward.


Jim
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post #605 of 699
1/29/11 at 7:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

hi Alan
i read that too. very nice of them
do you know if the D80E will be upgraded or its replacement be 3D and when ?

thanks

Lon: very interesting comparison. of course one is twice the price of the other
can we say the LUMIS with the T2 lens was clocked (can't find the thread back) at 900:1 ANSI "with" 1900lumens and "with" 20.000:1 on off ?

Jim:

Yes that sounds about right with dynamic black(dynamic iris), Ansi measurement also seems about right
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post #606 of 699
1/30/11 at 6:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post

The original target for the Lumis, single box, 3D solution was end of 1Q, but this was just an estimate. Still waiting for more info, but likely sometime between late March into June. Sim2 indicated the "upgrade" from 2D Lumis to 3D would msrp at $11,995, and the upgrade will only be available for the current single box Lumis (not the HOST version). The promo that ended in December was giving anyone that purchased a new single box Lumis a coupon good for a free upgrade to 3D, when available.

There is currently no talk of 3D migrating to D80 or other Sim2 products, but I guess it's always possible this could change going forward.


Jim

i hope there's something going in the sub $10K machines at SIM2
because JVC in particular is grabbing all this market, even more so now with 3D.
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post #607 of 699
1/30/11 at 6:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

i hope there's something going in the sub $10K machines at SIM2
because JVC in particular is grabbing all this market, even more so now with 3D.

I'm not convinced there is a market for 3-D at home. Everything I've read and my own experience is that is a gimmick and such a hog of light output that it may not be worth it. 3-D without glasses? Now you have something...

Personally, I have no plans for 3-D. I've seen a few 3-D movies and though entertaining for a while, they become dull and the glasses are a nuisance.
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post #608 of 699
1/30/11 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

i hope there's something going in the sub $10K machines at SIM2
because JVC in particular is grabbing all this market, even more so now with 3D.


It certainly could happen, but so far I have not heard it mentioned at Sim2.



Jim
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post #609 of 699
1/30/11 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I'm not convinced there is a market for 3-D at home. Everything I've read and my own experience is that is a gimmick and such a hog of light output that it may not be worth it. 3-D without glasses? Now you have something...

Personally, I have no plans for 3-D. I've seen a few 3-D movies and though entertaining for a while, they become dull and the glasses are a nuisance.


I generally agree, but I was surprised that my wife enjoyed the 3D as much as she did. I was given a new 65" Panasonic VT25 as a gift, along with the 3D releases of Avatar, Despic. Me, Leg. OF Guard., and A Christmas Carol. She liked them all and had no issues with the glasses. Personally, I'm not interested in wearing glasses to watch a movie, and it gets a bit tiring after awhile. Maybe on my big screen it will be easier to take, we'll see (She asked me to pick up the Lumis 3D when released, and stack it with my HT5KE).

So I guess the question is are there enough of "her" in the marketplace to keep 3D alive?



Jim
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post #610 of 699
1/30/11 at 4:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post

I generally agree, but I was surprised that my wife enjoyed the 3D as much as she did. I was given a new 65" Panasonic VT25 as a gift, along with the 3D releases of Avatar, Despic. Me, Leg. OF Guard., and A Christmas Carol. She liked them all and had no issues with the glasses. Personally, I'm not interested in wearing glasses to watch a movie, and it gets a bit tiring after awhile. Maybe on my big screen it will be easier to take, we'll see (She asked me to pick up the Lumis 3D when released, and stack it with my HT5KE).

So I guess the question is are there enough of "her" in the marketplace to keep 3D alive?



Jim

you seem to have a unique and exceptional wife
nice gift
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post #611 of 699
1/30/11 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I'm not convinced there is a market for 3-D at home. Everything I've read and my own experience is that is a gimmick and such a hog of light output that it may not be worth it. 3-D without glasses? Now you have something...

Personally, I have no plans for 3-D. I've seen a few 3-D movies and though entertaining for a while, they become dull and the glasses are a nuisance.

i agree too, 2Hrs with those glasses. especially at commercial theaters (TRON 3D: where're the lumens?? don't they understand you need a screen twice less big or 100% more lumens from the pj?? but when you see prices of xenon lamps...)
but it's cool when its bright and punchy. a short demo of a JVC X3 uncalibrated on a stewart 0.9 even way off axis was really enjoyable (avatar, canyon etc) and quite bright (100" screen).

and if you're on the dealer side, about the build HTs, then you sort of have to talk 3D, show 3D and most likely have the HT 3D ready (player pj receiver/preamp , hdmi, and the screen)...
i can alreay laugh at people who spend a ton on fabric screen (without citing brands) that ALREADY eat lumens in 2D, imagine in 3D.
or people with 120"" screens in white living rooms: forget 3D.

even for plasma, led: one needs also to darken the room for good 3D. (flicker is too problematic often when room is too light)
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post #612 of 699
1/30/11 at 4:15pm
Thread Starter 
3d done right with proper glasses, proper calibration(requires 3d calibration shooting through glasses),enough lumens is so so so different then what is served at local cinemaplex
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post #613 of 699
1/30/11 at 4:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post

3d done right with proper glasses, proper calibration(requires 3d calibration shooting through glasses),enough lumens is so so so different then what is served at local cinemaplex

absolutely
a specific settings in a memory of the pj specificly for 3D viewing is compulsory
even if at the expense of a colder temp and not perfect D65 (personaly i always also prefered the best possible balance of contrast lumens skin tones grey scale etc) vs sacrifying lumens and contrast on the "hostel" of D65...
lumens are crucial for enjoyable 3D viewing
and high gain screen affect the image, "too visible" on whites and pale colors (pearlescent aspect)
so bat cave, specific settings, not too large screen or capable closely placed (short throw) projector (!) . (people don't realize how dramatic the loss of lumens when a pj is placed at the end of his throw range (tele zoom). (sacrifying efficiency for look and design...technical back room ?)
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post #614 of 699
1/30/11 at 5:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post

3d done right with proper glasses, proper calibration(requires 3d calibration shooting through glasses),enough lumens is so so so different then what is served at local cinemaplex

3d calibration through the glasses? I havent been keeping up on that. How exactly is that a accomplished.
Thanks
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post #615 of 699
1/30/11 at 6:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle View Post


3d calibration through the glasses? I havent been keeping up on that. How exactly is that a accomplished.
Thanks

Just like you normally would except shoot thru the lens of the 3D glasses. While they are on and active.
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post #616 of 699
1/30/11 at 8:09pm
It is funny to me how much people seem to want to hate 3D without ever seeing a proper demo.

To me, that would be like me deciding if I want a surround sound home theater system based solely on a Bose Lifestyle system.

I think that there are certainly pros/cons to anything. But some people only want to see the negative.

Here are some facts/opinions based on my experience with 3D since my upgrade in April.

Can a properly setup 3D system produce outstanding results > YES

Would I want to watch everything in 3D, all the time > NO

Does choosing a 3D projector/TV/ display cause you to sacrifice your 2D image > NO

Can you get a 3D setup with ZERO Ghosting > YES

Can you get 3D without any flicker from active glasses > YES

Can 3D if done properly add to a movies experience > YES

The number one complaint I hear out of people is they dont want to wear glasses. That seems the same to me as someone not willing to own a great pair of speakers cause they wouldnt want anything taking up floor space so they opt for in-ceiling speakers. Meaning there is a trade off to just about everything. Maybe this isnt a big deal to me because I already wear glasses for watching tv. I think if anything it should be more aggravating to have to wear 3D glasses over glasses then just to wear 3D glasses. I hope to see prescription 3D active glasses soon. I would pay anything for a good pair.

I have probably shown 3D in my theater to atleast 100 people since last April. 95% would say it is the very best 3D image they have ever seen and are left wanting 3D, even when first asked about it they said they were not interested. There is still 5% who either dont care for 3D or just for whatever reason cant see a big difference.

I know that I have the very best 3D image I have ever seen. (maybe excluding Peter's Barco setup at cedia ) I have watched 3D at many many theaters and never have had the same experience. Mainly beacuse most are way to dim and there is still a decent amount of ghosting. I wish my 3D image was as bright as my 2D image, but when watching a 3D movie with either my screen set at a 14' wide scope or a 12' wide 16:9 it is still plenty bright at about 13fl. I get ZERO ghosting since I changed out my Xpand glasses to the RealD CE4. The Xpand X101 glasses are CRAP! You do not have to sacrifice a large image or replace a low gain AT screen for great 3D, you just need to select an appropriate projector with the necessary brightness. Preferably one that is dual lamp and you can vary the lamp brightness so to balance 2D and 3D.

I absolutely enjoy every 3D movie I watch in my theater, some better than other but they all do make me feel far more immersed into the movie. The most frustrating part of 3D is having to learn as you go. Alot of times there are gliches and it takes alot of time to get the setting just perfect. Certainly many hours of trial and error. But the results have been well worth the effort.

If we can just get full-res 3D for live events from DirecTv it would be perfect. The reduction in resolution for those sources hopefully will be a thing of the past before to long.
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post #617 of 699
1/30/11 at 8:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post

It is funny to me how much people seem to want to hate 3D without ever seeing a proper demo.

To me, that would be like me deciding if I want a surround sound home theater system based solely on a Bose Lifestyle system.

I think that there are certainly pros/cons to anything. But some people only want to see the negative.

Here are some facts/opinions based on my experience with 3D since my upgrade in April.

Can a properly setup 3D system produce outstanding results > YES

Would I want to watch everything in 3D, all the time > NO

Does choosing a 3D projector/TV/ display cause you to sacrifice your 2D image > NO

Can you get a 3D setup with ZERO Ghosting > YES

Can you get 3D without any flicker from active glasses > YES

Can 3D if done properly add to a movies experience > YES

The number one complaint I hear out of people is they dont want to wear glasses. That seems the same to me as someone not willing to own a great pair of speakers cause they wouldnt want anything taking up floor space so they opt for in-ceiling speakers. Meaning there is a trade off to just about everything. Maybe this isnt a big deal to me because I already wear glasses for watching tv. I think if anything it should be more aggravating to have to wear 3D glasses over glasses then just to wear 3D glasses. I hope to see prescription 3D active glasses soon. I would pay anything for a good pair.

I have probably shown 3D in my theater to atleast 100 people since last April. 95% would say it is the very best 3D image they have ever seen and are left wanting 3D, even when first asked about it they said they were not interested. There is still 5% who either dont care for 3D or just for whatever reason cant see a big difference.

I know that I have the very best 3D image I have ever seen. (maybe excluding Peter's Barco setup at cedia ) I have watched 3D at many many theaters and never have had the same experience. Mainly beacuse most are way to dim and there is still a decent amount of ghosting. I wish my 3D image was as bright as my 2D image, but when watching a 3D movie with either my screen set at a 14' wide scope or a 12' wide 16:9 it is still plenty bright at about 13fl. I get ZERO ghosting since I changed out my Xpand glasses to the RealD CE4. The Xpand X101 glasses are CRAP! You do not have to sacrifice a large image or replace a low gain AT screen for great 3D, you just need to select an appropriate projector with the necessary brightness. Preferably one that is dual lamp and you can vary the lamp brightness so to balance 2D and 3D.

I absolutely enjoy every 3D movie I watch in my theater, some better than other but they all do make me feel far more immersed into the movie. The most frustrating part of 3D is having to learn as you go. Alot of times there are gliches and it takes alot of time to get the setting just perfect. Certainly many hours of trial and error. But the results have been well worth the effort.

If we can just get full-res 3D for live events from DirecTv it would be perfect. The reduction in resolution for those sources hopefully will be a thing of the past before to long.

Nice post! I agree. The Imax Spacestation 3D Bluray convinced me of the "value" of properly displayed 3D. At my age I probably wont get to actually take a trip to outer space,but I feel I have been given a much improved perspective with 3D.
Going to have to swap out the xpand glasses. I think DPI sent me some slightly used ones anyway.
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post #618 of 699
1/30/11 at 9:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle View Post

Nice post! I agree. The Imax Spacestation 3D Bluray convinced me of the "value" of properly displayed 3D. At my age I probably wont get to actually take a trip to outer space,but I feel I have been given a much improved perspective with 3D.
Going to have to swap out the xpand glasses. I think DPI sent me some slightly used ones anyway.

I doubt DPI sent you used ones... everything that ships from XPand seems to feel and look that way. And the RealD glasses now are like the same price and 1000 times the quality. I told DPI that I could not believe they want to show their projectors with the Xpand X101 glasses. They are absolutely terrible. They do no justice to what the projector is capable of.

Have you gotten the 3 lumagen processors setup? I am not super happy with my setup with the XE and XS, It is just to much to keep all the settings the same in both processors, then switching both of them together, then all the HDMI splitters. I am going to talk to Jim @ lumagen this week about returning the Xs and buying 2 Minis. That seems like a much better way to go. I was hoping to only have to turn 3D on/off in the projector and have the lumagens handle the rest to make things easier. But no matter what the shutter rate will have to be adjusted in the projector for 1x for 1080P/60Hz and 3x for 1080P/24Hz. That is a bummer
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post #619 of 699
1/30/11 at 9:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post

I doubt DPI sent you used ones... everything that ships from XPand seems to feel and look that way. And the RealD glasses now are like the same price and 1000 times the quality. I told DPI that I could not believe they want to show their projectors with the Xpand X101 glasses. They are absolutely terrible. They do no justice to what the projector is capable of.

Have you gotten the 3 lumagen processors setup? I am not super happy with my setup with the XE and XS, It is just to much to keep all the settings the same in both processors, then switching both of them together, then all the HDMI splitters. I am going to talk to Jim @ lumagen this week about returning the Xs and buying 2 Minis. That seems like a much better way to go. I was hoping to only have to turn 3D on/off in the projector and have the lumagens handle the rest to make things easier. But no matter what the shutter rate will have to be adjusted in the projector for 1x for 1080P/60Hz and 3x for 1080P/24Hz. That is a bummer

We havent scheduled that upgrade as yet.Probably later this month.Our client is enjoying his 3D Blu ray collection anyway.

Where did you buy the RealDs? I am going to bark at DPI about the; Xpand glasses. They look like show demos!

As long as we can make needed changes on the Lumagen and the Titan with RS232,control should be predictable.

Paying the price for "early adopter" for sure.
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post #620 of 699
1/30/11 at 9:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle View Post

We havent scheduled that upgrade as yet.Probably later this month.Our client is enjoying his 3D Blu ray collection anyway.

Where did you buy the RealDs? I am going to bark at DPI about the; Xpand glasses. They look like show demos!

As long as we can make needed changes on the Lumagen and the Titan with RS232,control should be predictable.

Paying the price for "early adopter" for sure.

Yes serial control on both is no problem. Order glasses directly from RealD. They have contact info and sales on their website.
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post #621 of 699
1/30/11 at 9:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

you seem to have a unique and exceptional wife
nice gift


I get that a lot, and yes, she is. I knew I'd made the right choice when I was ordering my first FP screen many years back and she convinced me to "go bigger" (I was planning to order a 10' wide and she correctly indicated I'd probably not be satisfied with that size for very long, convinced me to go to "at least" 12'.) She also had nothing but support when I moved from one of JVC's RS units to the Sim2 HT5000, and didn't even blink when I mentioned the price differential. Also loved that I later moved to a 14' wide 2.35 setup including the Isco III and Scotty's Cineslide. Yup, very unusual (and 22 years younger).

The gift was from a Panasonic Exec, a good friend for many years and formerly with Sony. (He wanted me to try 3D.)

Jim
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post #622 of 699
1/31/11 at 6:08am
There's no denying the coolness factor of 3D and I'd love to see Lon's setup to see just how good it can get. Of more interest/concern is what type and quantity of quality content will be available. I'd guess the industry 3D temptation is going to be for more animation/action movies and the pressures to produce this siss boom bang content will pump out a bunch of crap that will ultimately sink the format. I hope not but just look back at the history of 3D

Owen
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post #623 of 699
1/31/11 at 6:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlglaw View Post

i get that a lot, and yes, she is. i knew i'd made the right choice when i was ordering my first fp screen many years back and she convinced me to "go bigger" (i was planning to order a 10' wide and she correctly indicated i'd probably not be satisfied with that size for very long, convinced me to go to "at least" 12'.) she also had nothing but support when i moved from one of jvc's rs units to the sim2 ht5000, and didn't even blink when i mentioned the price differential. Also loved that i later moved to a 14' wide 2.35 setup including the isco iii and scotty's cineslide. Yup, very unusual (and 22 years younger:d).

The gift was from a panasonic exec, a good friend for many years and formerly with sony. (he wanted me to try 3d.)

jim

grr envy :d
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post #624 of 699
1/31/11 at 7:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by owl1 View Post

There's no denying the coolness factor of 3D and I'd love to see Lon's setup to see just how good it can get. Of more interest/concern is what type and quantity of quality content will be available. I'd guess the industry 3D temptation is going to be for more animation/action movies and the pressures to produce this siss boom bang content will pump out a bunch of crap that will ultimately sink the format. I hope not but just look back at the history of 3D

Owen

one could say: will 3D explode with no more requirement of glasses and content?
http://www.pcworld.com/article/19093...t_glasses.html
philips and lg vs pana samsung sony?
my point was that if you're on the selling side (dealer), then one has to almost now force himself to propose to clients a 3D ready system.
and that influences a lot the kind of machines, screen sizes, positioning of the future HT (ie closer positioning of the pj unless it's a light canon, seats layout ? (though i was stunned at how 3D was evident with the jvc x3 being far on the right or left of the screen)
different settings too and explanation to client (this is for 2D, this is for 3D)
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post #625 of 699
1/31/11 at 8:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
Would I want to watch everything in 3D, all the time > NO

I know that I have the very best 3D image I have ever seen. (maybe excluding Peter's Barco setup at cedia ) .
Hi Chris, Congrats on your 3-D cinema , 100 people, that is a lot of popcorn.

Me thinks that if you saw the Terry converter you might change your mind- I certainly don't give a female rodent's derriere if I never saw 2-D again.

Thanks for the compliment on CEDIA, yes that was pretty cool, however the BAR just went through the roof at the DCI symposium.

Playing 3D Tahiti Ultimate Wave in 2k upconverted to 4K (you can buy this one and the awesome Legends of flight from Amazon UK) we tried every single glass format out there (except reald ce4). I don't see shutter glasses ever being prescription.

The dual 4k Barco with the dual dolby system is the top of the line system. With a single projector the new RealD wide angle Z-screen exhibits negligible nearly imperceptible ghosting and great brightness with a single projector, you still need a silver screen though (Stewart is your best bet there - Torus even better).

Although tricky the dual Barco-Dolby can be made to work at home.

The color filter goes before the light engine, you will see this extra 25-30% of MTF on titles and flames and scenes with high ansi contrast , there the separation and immediacy is just startling.Having dual projectors is a blessing on fast pans and airplane racing scenes.VERY EASY ON THE EYES.

I am going to ask Barco for one of these rigs come CEDIA if they accede we are going to need a bigger stadium.

But the very important point you have made is the prescription rx, the people that developed the dolby have the goggle style large format wide angle glasses. These can be prescription based. THEREIN lies the ULTIMATE SUPER DUPER HIGH END, that and a giant four way masking screen like you have.

Of course the RealD has a leg up on frame selection and supposedly are setting up a network of highly specialized optometrists through Marchon. I spent a morning at CES comparing reald glasses.
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post #626 of 699
1/31/11 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

one could say: will 3D explode with no more requirement of glasses and content?
http://www.pcworld.com/article/19093...t_glasses.html
philips and lg vs pana samsung sony?
my point was that if you're on the selling side (dealer), then one has to almost now force himself to propose to clients a 3D ready system.
and that influences a lot the kind of machines, screen sizes, positioning of the future HT (ie closer positioning of the pj unless it's a light canon, seats layout ? (though i was stunned at how 3D was evident with the jvc x3 being far on the right or left of the screen)
different settings too and explanation to client (this is for 2D, this is for 3D)

During the design stages in late 2009,I actually felt fortunate that the Titan Reference one of the best overall 2D projectors(projector of the gods) was also 3D capable.Our client is now smiling about growing his collection of 3D material.
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post #627 of 699
1/31/11 at 12:59pm
Increase collection?

Is that the hoarder? great!!!
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post #628 of 699
1/31/11 at 1:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Increase collection?

Is that the hoarder? great!!!

Yeah! He gets a big pile of software from Amazon everyday. One of his fifteen Blu-ray changers is modified for "Region Free" playback as he buys when traveling etc.
Not a bad place to hang around! Now that he is retired he mostly migrates between the hot tub and the theater
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post #629 of 699
1/31/11 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle View Post

During the design stages in late 2009,I actually felt fortunate that the Titan Reference one of the best overall 2D projectors(projector of the gods) was also 3D capable.Our client is now smiling about growing his collection of 3D material.

what isthe msrp for the TITAN 1080p-3D with medium optics (say tratio of
1.39-1.87) ?
lamp cost ?
thanks
http://www.digitalprojection.com/Bro...1/Default.aspx

3D or 3D Ultra contrast

have you taken measures of it ? cratio, lumens especially
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post #630 of 699
1/31/11 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post

Here are some fully calibrated numbers:

30 FTL off 12' wide 16:9 screen Studio Tech 130, Notch Filter On. In room on/off 4300:1.

21.5 FTL off 14' wide 2.35 Studio Tech 130, Notch Filter On. In room on/off 4300:1.

you have an anamorphic lens btw ? seems the ftl on the 2.35 14' is without, correct ? ie zooming ?
didn't follow the entire thread so sorry if you were asked already this question.
can you do full aspect ratio change (v stretch) with 3D sces ?
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