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Official JTR speaker thread - Page 348

post #10411 of 18421
Popalock - 99 problems but 16 subs ain't 1. 5.2 my arse. tongue.gif
post #10412 of 18421
Ok. Technically it may be the number of sub outputs used on the receiver or preamp but it simply looks cooler to write 5.16.
post #10413 of 18421
I though that was right Pop. You have .2 for your two fp 14000's each running 8 SI 18's...
post #10414 of 18421
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post

Ok. Technically it may be the number of sub outputs used on the receiver or preamp but it simply looks cooler to write 5.16.

For the AVR designation, yes. But when talking about systems, I've always used the number of discrete sub locations(or "boxes") in the room. So, 4 discrete subs is .4
post #10415 of 18421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

For the AVR designation, yes. But when talking about systems, I've always used the number of discrete sub locations(or "boxes") in the room. So, 4 discrete subs is .4

So how would you judge popalocks subwoofer system? From one side of the room to the other...in the front and rear eek.gif
post #10416 of 18421
I say 5.16 is most accurate because what is discrete? Is discrete 1 if it is 4 subs in a box? And an amp could power 1,2,4 subs etc so that isn't accurate either.
post #10417 of 18421
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post

I say 5.16 is most accurate because what is discrete? Is discrete 1 if it is 4 subs in a box? And an amp could power 1,2,4 subs etc so that isn't accurate either.

if your receiver says its .1, you only have 1 discrete channel, if it says .2, you have 2 discrete channels

if you use a Y splitter out of a .1, it is still .1
post #10418 of 18421
What about 1 from the receiver to a MiniDSP going to 4 amps?
post #10419 of 18421
Quote:
Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

if your receiver says its .1, you only have 1 discrete channel, if it says .2, you have 2 discrete channels

if you use a Y splitter out of a .1, it is still .1
I always thought it depended on what it was referring to the AVR or speakers. If its the AVR it would be the # of sub outputs and when talking about speakers its the # of subwoofers total.
When referring to the whole system I count the speakers and subs so 9 speakers 4 subs is 9.4
If anyone has definitive answer I would like to know so as not to keep guessing.smile.gif
Chris
post #10420 of 18421
Quote:
Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

if your receiver says its .1, you only have 1 discrete channel, if it says .2, you have 2 discrete channels

if you use a Y splitter out of a .1, it is still .1

My Elite SC-57 only has one sub out. That signal is fed into my mini 10x10HD and split into two separate signals. Each amp (8 subs) is sent it's own signal.

Hence my .2.

I have 4 channels of amplification and technically could split my .1 into four separate signals, one for each box. Not necessary in my case.
post #10421 of 18421
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

My Elite SC-57 only has one sub out. That signal is fed into my mini 10x10HD and split into two separate signals. Each amp (8 subs) is sent it's own signal.

Hence my .2.

I have 4 channels of amplification and technically could split my .1 into four separate signals, one for each box. Not necessary in my case.


I have two discreet sub channels that end up as mono after Audyssey pings them separately. I have 9 other speakers so I call it a 9.2 system. If I were to add 2 or 4 more subs, it would still be a 9.2 system IMO.
post #10422 of 18421
It's kinda one of those numbers that really don't matter.
post #10423 of 18421
I have a 1.32....a center channel and 32 subs.
post #10424 of 18421
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I have two discreet sub channels that end up as mono after Audyssey pings them separately. I have 9 other speakers so I call it a 9.2 system. If I were to add 2 or 4 more subs, it would still be a 9.2 system IMO.

Not sure if "mono" is the correct term in the context of the LFE channel. Is "stereo bass" possible through the .1 channel?

Your subs are co-located and do not require separate distance/phase/eq settings. If you added 2 more OS where your current OS are, Audyssey would still ping them as one (.1) sub.

Move one OS to a different location, different distance from your LP, and Audyssey will pick set them up as a .2 vs .1 you have now.
post #10425 of 18421
Even receivers with two LFE output are just Y connected inside the receiver. For the SC 57 it is more correct to say I have a X.1 receiver and a X.2 or .4 system.
post #10426 of 18421
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Even receivers with two LFE output are just Y connected inside the receiver. For the SC 57 it is more correct to say I have a X.1 receiver and a X.2 or .4 system.

not true.

My Onkyo TX-NR1007 has two separate LFE. I can adjust level trims, distance and Audyssey will assign unique EQ to each subwoofer out. There is a name for this but it eludes me at this moment. This is a feature on higher end Onkyo's - not sure where else it is put. You are correct in regards to lower level Onkyo's and some of the more inexpensive units that it is just a y splitter inside the unit - where you can't adjust each subwoofer out separately and the menu's only show a single subwoofer out despite there being two subwoofer outputs. My friend has a 6xx onkyo that does that. But the 1007, 3007, and 5007 and equivalent later models definitely have two distance subwoofer outputs. I currently use one for my buttkickers and one for my subwoofers. I don't think I would go back to an AVR that only has a single sub out. The two distinct sub out is too beneficial. The buttkickers would be worthless without setting properly delay and with the two subwoofer outputs I can do that. I use 10.5 foot for the subs on subwoofer output 1 and 4.5 foot for the buttkickers on subwoofer output 2. If I run them both at the same distance the timing on the buttkickers for kick drums and such is horrid.
post #10427 of 18421
^ you mean Sub EQ HT?
post #10428 of 18421
Quote:
Originally Posted by rangers View Post

This is great to hear. My XPA-5 has 32 gain and I keep reading about how an amp with 29db gain should work better with high sensitivity speakers, such as the Noesis.

Looking to the future, this is a downright blast! I have all kinds of things to look forward to with this hobby:

Soon I'll purchase a second sub

Later I'll get JTR surrounds and move my current 703s into a bedroom setup with my XPA-5

And then the dream, a dedicated home theater, 7.2. A set of JTR speakers, a couple killer subs, driven by the Sherbourn 7-350

I believe the second generation XPA-5 only has 29dB gain now so that's a nice improvement. Of course that's another reason why I was so happy to get a Sherbourn PA 7-350 for the same price as the new XPA-5 eek.gif
post #10429 of 18421
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post


I always thought it depended on what it was referring to the AVR or speakers. If its the AVR it would be the # of sub outputs and when talking about speakers its the # of subwoofers total.
When referring to the whole system I count the speakers and subs so 9 speakers 4 subs is 9.4
If anyone has definitive answer I would like to know so as not to keep guessing.smile.gif
Chris
After finding out a little bit of almost worthless information on this subject I will change my above opinion to agree with RMK. If the AVR has 9 speaker outs & 2 sub outputs it is a 9.2 system.
If this system contains 9 speakers & 4 subwoofers it is a 9.2 system with 4 subwoofers.
The . (point) refers to the # of subwoofer outputs. If you add something to the mix like MiniDSP it is still using the original 2 sub channels by creating a digital Y splitter. I Do Not Know if this new Hybrid changes anything or not.
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 9/22/13 at 7:04am
post #10430 of 18421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

not true.

My Onkyo TX-NR1007 has two separate LFE. I can adjust level trims, distance and Audyssey will assign unique EQ to each subwoofer out. There is a name for this but it eludes me at this moment. This is a feature on higher end Onkyo's - not sure where else it is put. You are correct in regards to lower level Onkyo's and some of the more inexpensive units that it is just a y splitter inside the unit - where you can't adjust each subwoofer out separately and the menu's only show a single subwoofer out despite there being two subwoofer outputs. My friend has a 6xx onkyo that does that. But the 1007, 3007, and 5007 and equivalent later models definitely have two distance subwoofer outputs. I currently use one for my buttkickers and one for my subwoofers. I don't think I would go back to an AVR that only has a single sub out. The two distinct sub out is too beneficial. The buttkickers would be worthless without setting properly delay and with the two subwoofer outputs I can do that. I use 10.5 foot for the subs on subwoofer output 1 and 4.5 foot for the buttkickers on subwoofer output 2. If I run them both at the same distance the timing on the buttkickers for kick drums and such is horrid.
The source material feeds only 1 LFE signal to the AVR. The AVR internally splits that 1 LFE signal into 2 outputs. From this point Audyssey takes that 1 LFE signal from 2 outputs and measures them independently creating 2 distinctive LFE channels. Without Audyssey doing this it would be 1 LFE signal split into 2 outputs like your friends older Onkyo. The newer higher $$$ models have a more advanced Audyssey that allows it to measure 2 subs independent of each other.
IMO Audyssey is creating the 2 distinctive LFE channels while the AVR just splits the same LFE signal internally to give 2 outputs. How Audyssey handles it from there would be equal to what the MiniDSP does to it after the fact.
I may be using the word "channel" instead of "signal"
Please correct any of the above incorrect information if needed. This is just an early Sunday morning Guess.smile.gif
2 cents
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 9/22/13 at 9:44am
post #10431 of 18421
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post


After finding a little bit of almost worthless information out on this subject I will change my above opinion to agree with RMK. If the AVR has 9 speaker outs & 2 sub outputs it is a 9.2 system.
If the this system contains 9 speakers & 4 subwoofers it is a 9.2 system with 4 subwoofers.
The . (point) refers to the # of subwoofer channels. If you add something to the mix like MiniDSP it is still using the original 2 sub channels by creating a digital Y splitter. I Do Not Know if this new Hybrid changes anything or not.
Chris

Related to a MiniDSP, I believe it would depend on how you're using it. If it is just minor EQing, then maybe it is .1 or .2. But if the MiniDSP has some wildly different settings for say midbass and several sub locations coming off the .1 LFE then it may be a .4 in my opinion.

I also say this partially because some don't have Audissey as my Sherbourn PT-7030 has a Parametric EQ.

I don't think it really matters but the more info the better. I like the idea of number of LFE output signals (could be extra with external EQ) and then state the number of subs.
post #10432 of 18421
There are lots of new units with independent dual sub outputs. I would expect to see a ton more in the very near future. Whether it's a .1, .2 or .50 makes no difference IMO.
post #10433 of 18421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

not true.

My Onkyo TX-NR1007 has two separate LFE. I can adjust level trims, distance and Audyssey will assign unique EQ to each subwoofer out. There is a name for this but it eludes me at this moment. This is a feature on higher end Onkyo's - not sure where else it is put. You are correct in regards to lower level Onkyo's and some of the more inexpensive units that it is just a y splitter inside the unit - where you can't adjust each subwoofer out separately and the menu's only show a single subwoofer out despite there being two subwoofer outputs. My friend has a 6xx onkyo that does that. But the 1007, 3007, and 5007 and equivalent later models definitely have two distance subwoofer outputs. I currently use one for my buttkickers and one for my subwoofers. I don't think I would go back to an AVR that only has a single sub out. The two distinct sub out is too beneficial. The buttkickers would be worthless without setting properly delay and with the two subwoofer outputs I can do that. I use 10.5 foot for the subs on subwoofer output 1 and 4.5 foot for the buttkickers on subwoofer output 2. If I run them both at the same distance the timing on the buttkickers for kick drums and such is horrid.

Chris from Audyssey describes the XT32 with SubEQ in my Integra SSP as follows:
Quote:
Yes, the SubEQ HT function in the 80.3 will measure each sub individually first to determine any level and distance (phase) differences between them.  It will apply these corrections and then measure them together as "one" sub to apply the room correction filter.It is MultEQ that is in charge of creating the filters and it will look all the way down to 10 Hz.  If it finds usable response down there then it will apply correction down to 10 Hz.  July 11, 2012 04:13 pm

So to clarify, after distance and level settings are done independently, the subs are EQ'd as one. EQ filter settings are not applied to each channel as they would only be over wtitten by the combined measurement filters anyway. smile.gif
post #10434 of 18421
From the Hotels.com commercial (my aunt used them and wasn't happy), I think I have something we can all agree upon.

Popalock has 5.YEAH!
post #10435 of 18421
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post

From the Hotels.com commercial (my aunt used them and wasn't happy), I think I have something we can all agree upon.

Popalock has 5.YEAH!

Ultimately, it is all about a balanced presentation of all frequencies and in HT, the image. Pop's avatar shows a decided lack of interest in the image ... tongue.gif
post #10436 of 18421
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post


The source material feeds only 1 LFE signal to the AVR. The AVR internally splits that 1 LFE signal into 2 outputs. From this point Audyssey takes that 1 LFE signal from 2 outputs and EQs them independently creating 2 distinctive LFE channels. Without Audyssey doing this it would be 1 LFE signal split into 2 outputs like your friends older Onkyo. The newer higher $$$ models have a more advanced Audyssey that allows it to EQ 2 subs independent of each other.
IMO Audyssey is creating the 2 distinctive LFE channels while the AVR just splits the same LFE signal internally to give 2 outputs. How Audyssey handles it from there would be equal to what the MiniDSP does to it after the fact.
I may be using the word "channel" instead of "signal"
Please correct any of the above incorrect information if needed. This is just an early Sunday morning Guess.smile.gif
2 cents
Chris

Actually Audyssey doesn't EQ them separately. It pings them separately for setting the correct distances for each one individually. It then EQ's them as one. Or better said Audyssey only EQ's the LFE channel once, there is not separate EQ filters for each set of pings.

Looks like you beat me to it RMK tongue.gif This is the correct information though. Before I made my way into the higher end JTR forums I spent quite a bit of time learning Audyssey and a few other things biggrin.gif

Chris from Audyssey describes the XT32 with SubEQ in my Integra SSP as follows:
Quote:
Yes, the SubEQ HT function in the 80.3 will measure each sub individually first to determine any level and distance (phase) differences between them. It will apply these corrections and then measure them together as "one" sub to apply the room correction filter.It is MultEQ that is in charge of creating the filters and it will look all the way down to 10 Hz. If it finds usable response down there then it will apply correction down to 10 Hz. July 11, 2012 04:13 pm

So to clarify, after distance and level settings are done independently, the subs are EQ'd as one. EQ filter settings are not applied to each channel as they would only be over wtitten by the combined measurement filters anyway.
post #10437 of 18421
To EQ your subs separately you would have to use a more advanced form of EQ. And then it will have old school parametric EQ (most likely) witch isn't a bad thing at all. But it is not the same as audyssey's EQ filters witch are a bit more precise. Certainly it has it's advantages and dis-advantages.
post #10438 of 18421
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

not true.

My Onkyo TX-NR1007 has two separate LFE. I can adjust level trims, distance and Audyssey will assign unique EQ to each subwoofer out. There is a name for this but it eludes me at this moment. This is a feature on higher end Onkyo's - not sure where else it is put. You are correct in regards to lower level Onkyo's and some of the more inexpensive units that it is just a y splitter inside the unit - where you can't adjust each subwoofer out separately and the menu's only show a single subwoofer out despite there being two subwoofer outputs. My friend has a 6xx onkyo that does that. But the 1007, 3007, and 5007 and equivalent later models definitely have two distance subwoofer outputs. I currently use one for my buttkickers and one for my subwoofers. I don't think I would go back to an AVR that only has a single sub out. The two distinct sub out is too beneficial. The buttkickers would be worthless without setting properly delay and with the two subwoofer outputs I can do that. I use 10.5 foot for the subs on subwoofer output 1 and 4.5 foot for the buttkickers on subwoofer output 2. If I run them both at the same distance the timing on the buttkickers for kick drums and such is horrid.

Chris from Audyssey describes the XT32 with SubEQ in my Integra SSP as follows:
Quote:
Yes, the SubEQ HT function in the 80.3 will measure each sub individually first to determine any level and distance (phase) differences between them.  It will apply these corrections and then measure them together as "one" sub to apply the room correction filter.It is MultEQ that is in charge of creating the filters and it will look all the way down to 10 Hz.  If it finds usable response down there then it will apply correction down to 10 Hz.  July 11, 2012 04:13 pm

So to clarify, after distance and level settings are done independently, the subs are EQ'd as one. EQ filter settings are not applied to each channel as they would only be over wtitten by the combined measurement filters anyway. smile.gif

You're actually both right FWIW. The Onkyo 1007 does indeed have 2 independent sub outputs (IOW, not an internal Y splitter) with unique level trims, distances and EQ filters as Archaea points out. However, it runs Audyssey MultEQ XT (not XT32) with an early implementation of SubEQ HT. This implementation measures each sub individually and calculates trims, delays and EQ filters for them. It does not come back for the subsequent step described by Chris K to measure the subs simultaneously (as a single unit) to calculate combined EQ filters. IIRC the X007 Onkyos, equivalent Integras and (perhaps) Denon 4810 (3 sub outs) were unique in this regard. Subsequent models either had an internal Y splitter or the full SubEQ HT implementation as found on the Integra 80.3.
post #10439 of 18421
Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post

You're actually both right FWIW. The Onkyo 1007 does indeed have 2 independent sub outputs (IOW, not an internal Y splitter) with unique level trims, distances and EQ filters as Archaea points out. However, it runs Audyssey MultEQ XT (not XT32) with an early implementation of SubEQ HT. This implementation measures each sub individually and calculates trims, delays and EQ filters for them. It does not come back for the subsequent step described by Chris K to measure the subs simultaneously (as a single unit) to calculate combined EQ filters. IIRC the X007 Onkyos, equivalent Integras and (perhaps) Denon 4810 (3 sub outs) were unique in this regard. Subsequent models either had an internal Y splitter or the full SubEQ HT implementation as found on the Integra 80.3.

Thanks for that interesting clarification GIGEAR. Not running a final EQ with both subs simultaneously seems like a poor design choice by someone (Onkyo, Audyssey or both). I'm sure that was the reason for the change to XT32 and the full version of SubEQ in the 80.3. Although the 80.3 has the best "auto EQ" system I have used, it is not perfect. I am considering a MiniDSP to get more control of the EQ process and results.
post #10440 of 18421
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Thanks for that interesting clarification GIGEAR. Not running a final EQ with both subs simultaneously seems like a poor design choice by someone (Onkyo, Audyssey or both). I'm sure that was the reason for the change to XT32 and the full version of SubEQ in the 80.3. Although the 80.3 has the best "auto EQ" system I have used, it is not perfect. I am considering a MiniDSP to get more control of the EQ process and results.
I replaced my Behr 1124p with the balanced Minidsp 2x4 and I really like it. Of coures my set up really needed it because my SSP only has one sub out, and I have 4 subs. Even the two OS's that are grouped together and firing in an opposite directions benefit greatly with a 3ms delay on one of them. The OS's are so large even when paired together they are not together from an acoustic perspective! So far I do like the minidsp and although I am still looking to upgrade the pre pro this will get me through till the right pre pro comes out.
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