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Official JTR speaker thread - Page 371

post #11101 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

On the plus side HyperM3, if you found you really couldn't live with the 228HT's because they don't play full range I'm pretty sure you'd have absolutely no trouble selling them fast.

Ok, I think thats where the confusion is coming in from my re-review. Im not expecting full range out of these. Im being realistic. However, it just goes back to those two 8" woofers, Im expecting more midrange out of them. Again, Ill chalk it up to still not being broken in. Like I asked for in a previous post, is there any recommended songs or sounds I can leave playing on my speakers all day to break them in correctly?
post #11102 of 18425
Wait a second here, I am sorry but buying JTR speakers means you have at least read some of the thread about them, no? Why would anyone place these in a 2 channel system without a sub vs tower speakers and play music. Common Man! Try playing your favorite music with just the submersive and tell me how it sounds, I bet it is missing something. Music sounds great when all the frequencies are playing well together. The submersive does not cover up anything as they play different frequencies, it just makes music sound full as intended.
post #11103 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperM3 View Post

Ok, I think thats where the confusion is coming in from my re-review. Im not expecting full range out of these. Im being realistic. However, it just goes back to those two 8" woofers, Im expecting more midrange out of them. Again, Ill chalk it up to still not being broken in. Like I asked for in a previous post, is there any recommended songs or sounds I can leave playing on my speakers all day to break them in correctly?

Can you define midrange please? You do realize the midrange are the vocal frequencies? How are they setup again? Crossovers, large, small, etc.
post #11104 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Wait a second here, I am sorry but buying JTR speakers means you have at least read some of the thread about them, no? Why would anyone place these in a 2 channel system without a sub vs tower speakers and play music. Common Man! Try playing your favorite music with just the submersive and tell me how it sounds, I bet it is missing something. Music sounds great when all the frequencies are playing well together. The submersive does not cover up anything as they play different frequencies, it just makes music sound full as intended.

Again, missing my actual argument. Not trying to create a war here, I really love these speakers. Im just saying something is missing in the middle.
post #11105 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperM3 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

I don't know about the 228s.. but the 212s coupled with my dual HSU ULS 15s sounds AMAZING with music. The HSU's are sealed subs and extremely musical and blends nicely with the 212s...

The midbass in my current setup (with the HSU's turned on) far exceeds any other tower speakers i have ever come acrossed. However, being greedy and all, I think I want more and might be considering augmenting them with 2-4 18inch woofers. But that would be 'scary insane' bass... your heart might literally stop... your face might be slapped mercilessly... wink.gif

Yes, combined with my Submersive, they sound great. However, that only masks the speakers shortcomings. I like playing two speakers for music to get the actual taste of what they can represent. This is the basis of my updated review.

These speakers aren't designed to be run full range and that is that.


I have small sony bookshelves that have much more bass capability than the 228HT. Yes, they will sound thin if you run them full range. If you want a full range speaker, I'd send them back during your 30 day window. The Tekton Pendragon I've recently heard is a good mix of some of the sound of the JTR with a full range speaker. I like you used to like to listen to my setup in direct mode (when I used Wharfedale Sapphire speakers) and when I first came to the 228HT I was a bit concerned with not having the ability to do that anymore - but I've now lined the 228HT up against a LOT of different speakers and the 212 against even more at different meets. Nothing has beaten the 212HT that I've head, and the 228HT is pretty darn close - - - - so the reality is turn the sub on and forget about the 'direct' or full range mode. No amount of break in will make them full range or help you appreciate their lack of midrange or deep bass without a sub. (I don't even believe in speaker break in much - I've seen some reviews where they proved measurements change very little if any over the typical break in period' yet users think they've broke in their speakers and all they've done is get accostumed to the sound and in a sense have broken themselves in). The JTR product line is all designed to be used with excellent subs. As as you state - they sound awesome when coupled with a capable sub system, and yes, I agree, could be considered thin by themselves. That is their design choice.

I went to the Wisconsin meet where the triple 12 were demoed without subs - you could hear the missing bass for sure but they were so darn accurate up top that they still won second place that day for me behind the full range Catalyst 12C, and placed above a lot of much more expensive speakers that were running full range. I do like the 212HT better than the triple 12's and having heard the Catalyst 12C against the 212HT I prefer the 212HT over the 12C.

I welcome your opinion and any discourse to the JTR speakers. It's good to have contrasting viewpoints. Just keep in mind that saying the JTR don't sound great full range is sort of like saying my Corvette isn't any good at pulling out tree stumps. Horses for courses.
Edited by Archaea - 10/7/13 at 10:31am
post #11106 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Can you define midrange please? You do realize the midrange are the vocal frequencies? How are they setup again? Crossovers, large, small, etc.

Crossed at 80. Set to Small. Dynamic EQ off, Dynamic Volume Off. All EQ settings to flat after Audyssey. Yes, vocals. Like take Morgan Freemans voice, there is a slight boominess to it. I dont feel like Im getting enough of that range.
post #11107 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperM3 View Post

Crossed at 80. Set to Small. Dynamic EQ off, Dynamic Volume Off. All EQ settings to flat after Audyssey. Yes, vocals. Like take Morgan Freemans voice, there is a slight boominess to it. I dont feel like Im getting enough of that range.

This is with the submersive in the mix? I don't understand your comments, boominess is usually associated with too much or elevated levels and you are saying not enough and boominess at the same time.
post #11108 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperM3 View Post

Ok, I think thats where the confusion is coming in from my re-review. Im not expecting full range out of these. Im being realistic. However, it just goes back to those two 8" woofers, Im expecting more midrange out of them. Again, Ill chalk it up to still not being broken in. Like I asked for in a previous post, is there any recommended songs or sounds I can leave playing on my speakers all day to break them in correctly?

I don't think the issue is break-in as I believe it is the listener that get's broken in wink.gif. If they lack mid-range for you it may be a frequency cancellation issue or ??? OTOH, if the Totems have the sound you like for music and the JTR's don't, then I'm afraid that is what it is.

Sorry if this has already been discussed but have you taken any measurements?
post #11109 of 18425
Also, turn off Audyssey as well.
post #11110 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I don't think the issue is break-in as I believe it is the listener that get's broken in wink.gif. If they lack mid-range for you it may be a frequency cancellation issue or ??? OTOH, if the Totems have the sound you like for music and the JTR's don't, then I'm afraid that is what it is.

Sorry if this has already been discussed but have you taken any measurements?

I do agree with that about getting use to the sound of them, but I still maintain that when I first heard my 228HT's compared to now they do sound "fuller" not as thin. They sound has definitely changed a little.
post #11111 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

This is with the submersive in the mix? I don't understand your comments, boominess is usually associated with too much or elevated levels and you are saying not enough and boominess at the same time.

What I mean is I know there is a boominess to his voice that Im not getting conveyed through the 228's.

Clearly I created a Sh&tstorm by talking negative about an aspect I wasnt happy with. Nothing is an end-all-be-all of something. I just need more time on these like others have said. Maybe my expectations were a bit higher considering the size of the drivers in this. As someone pointed out, these are more like satellite speakers. Well, they sound diminutive like satellites would. They do not sound like they have two 8" woofers in them. That's where Im coming from and thats where I am confused about the sound.
post #11112 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperM3 View Post

Crossed at 80. Set to Small. Dynamic EQ off, Dynamic Volume Off. All EQ settings to flat after Audyssey. Yes, vocals. Like take Morgan Freemans voice, there is a slight boominess to it. I dont feel like Im getting enough of that range.

needs-more_zps635519fd.jpg

Try crossing your SubM at 100hz just to do it... Should boost Morgan Freeman accordingly.

wink.gif
post #11113 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperM3 View Post

Crossed at 80. Set to Small. Dynamic EQ off, Dynamic Volume Off. All EQ settings to flat after Audyssey. Yes, vocals. Like take Morgan Freemans voice, there is a slight boominess to it. I dont feel like Im getting enough of that range.

Ok I have several major points that need to be considered here. One, the Totems are great speakers, and are good down to 32hz and will get that warmth you like, but are only capable of 107dB peaks at 2m. The JTR's will just be breaking stride at this level. Another thing, the design aspect of the totems could be different where as they look to have a slightly decreasing "house curve" that is hands-down preferred by most HT enthusiasts. The JTR's are pro style speakers so they are designed with a more "Flat" response in mind.

Speaking of flat, do you have audyssey or any other room correction on your 2 channel setup? The natural "house curve" in a decent dedicated room with proper placement happens organically, and in some cases, when Audyssey removes this and flattens everything out, it sounds thin. I am one to talk, I waffle back and forth between audy on and off when listening to 2 channel and often leave it off or on "Bypass L/R" where no filters are applied to the left and right speakers, but distance and settings for all the others stay in tact.

IF you have the totems on a standalone setup with no room correction, and are in a dedicated music rig, running full range, in a different room, the differences are going to be VAST from a room corrected flat response, with the 228's that are only good down to 70hz. My initial suggestion is to try turning Aud. off or to bypass L/R and see if it gets a little better, if not, you should invest in a measurement rig with REW or the all in one solution, Dayton OmniMic. This way, you can measure the response of the Totems in their room, and then see what you might need to do to try and re-create that with your HT. It is more than possible to do so. Once again from experience, I always thought my Triple12's were lacking something when listening to music, it wasn't until I really started treating the room (and they were already sold) that I realized there was nothing wrong with the speaker. It was my placement, my room, and the dead flat response audyssey put on them that I didn't appreciate when listening to music.
post #11114 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

needs-more_zps635519fd.jpg

Try crossing your SubM at 100hz just to do it... Should boost Morgan Freeman accordingly.

wink.gif

That just made me laugh out loud so hard that everyone looked at me at work. Thank you for that.
post #11115 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperM3 View Post

What I mean is I know there is a boominess to his voice that Im not getting conveyed through the 228's.

Clearly I created a Sh&tstorm by talking negative about an aspect I wasnt happy with. Nothing is an end-all-be-all of something. I just need more time on these like others have said. Maybe my expectations were a bit higher considering the size of the drivers in this. As someone pointed out, these are more like satellite speakers. Well, they sound diminutive like satellites would. They do not sound like they have two 8" woofers in them. That's where Im coming from and thats where I am confused about the sound.

As a future 228HT owner I actually appreciate the discussion that has taken place today based on your initial posting (review). If nothing else, it has been informative on the value of a capable sub.

I am not an expert by any means but I know a little from spending time in AVS for over a year now. It seems like often times (especially in terms of bass) people "step up" their system and are disappointed by the results because they are used to "boomy" output. I am not saying this is the case with your previous gear, but is it possible the 228HTs are just providing a much clearer and more accurate reproduction of the source material and your ears are not used to it yet? I could be off base here, but that was my first thought based on your descriptions...
Edited by emr25 - 10/7/13 at 11:30am
post #11116 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Ok I have several major points that need to be considered here. One, the Totems are great speakers, and are good down to 32hz and will get that warmth you like, but are only capable of 107dB peaks at 2m. The JTR's will just be breaking stride at this level. Another thing, the design aspect of the totems could be different where as they look to have a slightly decreasing "house curve" that is hands-down preferred by most HT enthusiasts. The JTR's are pro style speakers so they are designed with a more "Flat" response in mind.

Speaking of flat, do you have audyssey or any other room correction on your 2 channel setup? The natural "house curve" in a decent dedicated room with proper placement happens organically, and in some cases, when Audyssey removes this and flattens everything out, it sounds thin. I am one to talk, I waffle back and forth between audy on and off when listening to 2 channel and often leave it off or on "Bypass L/R" where no filters are applied to the left and right speakers, but distance and settings for all the others stay in tact.

IF you have the totems on a standalone setup with no room correction, and are in a dedicated music rig, running full range, in a different room, the differences are going to be VAST from a room corrected flat response, with the 228's that are only good down to 70hz. My initial suggestion is to try turning Aud. off or to bypass L/R and see if it gets a little better, if not, you should invest in a measurement rig with REW or the all in one solution, Dayton OmniMic. This way, you can measure the response of the Totems in their room, and then see what you might need to do to try and re-create that with your HT. It is more than possible to do so. Once again from experience, I always thought my Triple12's were lacking something when listening to music, it wasn't until I really started treating the room (and they were already sold) that I realized there was nothing wrong with the speaker. It was my placement, my room, and the dead flat response audyssey put on them that I didn't appreciate when listening to music.

Ok, thank you for looking into what Im comparing it to. As for the first note, I dont ever listen to anything above 95db, actually if my speakers hit a peak of 90db that would be more accurate(more for my HT, Totems hit a max of 80db). There is no Audyssey run or room corrections on my Totems. They are just plugged into a Krell Integrated Amp and running(albeit through an additional dac).

The HT has room accoustics set up. Again, maybe Im just used to having almost 18 years worth of DefTech bi-polar sound in my HT. This is definitely more of a monitor type speaker. Very clear representation of the information put through it. I definitely hear things I never heard before and I can hear different qualities of music as well. I suppose I need to adapt to them like someone said. Again, my biggest issue is the two 8" woofers. I know I keep harping on it but I expect more out of them. They seem to put out the dept of something closer to a 3" cone.
post #11117 of 18425
Hyper, I 100% agree the mid/low bass sucks on the JTRs but everyone is just trying to help find a reason. You cant really compare them to your totems as they are complety different designs and goals. If running them as 2 channel you set yourself up for a huge disappointment. They suck at 2 channel without a sub hut they are not deaigned to be run that way in the first place. Its like taking a civic off road, sure you can but you shouldnt lol
i built my 2242s for the excat reason a pure midbass but knew i was going to from day one aftery T12s.
post #11118 of 18425
Alright, well the totem uses a scanspeak driver for its bottom end. considered by many, including myself to be one of the best 6" drivers out there, and the entire box is built to get the max extension out of them so the totems can run full range. The 8's in the 228 COULD also be designed to get all of this bottom end, but then their ability to run high spl's would be sacrificed. Jeff designed these with the assumption subs would be used as others have suggested, and while he could have designed for extension lower than 70hz, he did so that he could instead get clean, distortion-free playback in the range they are intended to play, without needing a 200 pound monoblock amp to get them there biggrin.gif
post #11119 of 18425
Really all this discussion is guessing to some degree until we see an actual frequency response. Maybe he has a big dip at 130hz or 200hz or 160hz. Could be the reason.
post #11120 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Hyper, I 100% agree the mid/low bass sucks on the JTRs but everyone is just trying to help find a reason. You cant really compare them to your totems as they are complety different designs and goals. If running them as 2 channel you set yourself up for a huge disappointment. They suck at 2 channel without a sub hut they are not deaigned to be run that way in the first place. Its like taking a civic off road, sure you can but you shouldnt lol
i built my 2242s for the excat reason a pure midbass but knew i was going to from day one aftery T12s.

I would say more like taking a nascar or a Le Mans race car off road is a more accurate description smile.gif
post #11121 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

I would say more like taking a nascar or a Le Mans race car off road is a more accurate description smile.gif

Or a Tri-Bike on a Mountain Trail...
post #11122 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Or a Tri-Bike on a Mountain Trail...

Yes that too. Don't want a 4k carbon fiber frame street bike with skinny little tires tackling some technical lava rock trails like out here in Oregon!
post #11123 of 18425
I will let this discussion die as I think Ive gotten what I need out of it and I appreciate all the responses, even the funny ones. This is not a two channel speaker. I have come to grips. Funny thing is I didnt even want them as a two channel speaker as I am using these in a dedicated HT where I never listen to music. I just got caught up with the clarity in these that I had to keep putting music through them. I now understand these werent meant for that and that a sub is all but required to be used with them.

When I want music I shall rely on the Totems, when I want HT I will rely on the 228's. I should stop putting music through them and expecting more than what I should.
post #11124 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by emr25 View Post

As a future 228HT owner I actually appreciate the discussion that has taken place today based on your initial posting (review). If nothing else, it has been informative on the value of a capable sub.

I am not an expert by any means but I know a little from spending time in AVS for over a year now. It seems like often times (especially in terms of bass) people "step up" their system and are disappointed by the results because they are used to "boomy" output. I am not saying this is the case with your previous gear, but is it possible the 228HTs are just providing a much clearer and more accurate reproduction of the source material and your ears are not used to it yet? I could be off base here, but that was my first thought based on your descriptions...

This is absolutely accurate.

Initially the speakers sounds thin to me.. then later, i realized they are crystal clear. Suddenly my old towers sounds muddy... see how the brain start to adapt?

I rather have them crystal clear and if i needed more midbass or bang, i'll just add some woofers to the setup. But for music, right now with my dual HSU's, they sound perfect. For movies, I want something that would crack walls and cause a few heart attacks!
post #11125 of 18425
When used as a horizontal center channel, can the 228ht be custom built with a height of 8.5"?
post #11126 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slinkee View Post

When used as a horizontal center channel, can the 228ht be custom built with a height of 8.5"?

I would call Jeff to see what he can do. 8.5 would shave almost 4 inches the regular design (12.25 inches is standard width)...not sure there is that much extra room for Jeff to get them down to that size and keep the 8 inch drivers. My hunch is no.
post #11127 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperM3 View Post

I will let this discussion die as I think Ive gotten what I need out of it and I appreciate all the responses, even the funny ones. This is not a two channel speaker. I have come to grips. Funny thing is I didnt even want them as a two channel speaker as I am using these in a dedicated HT where I never listen to music. I just got caught up with the clarity in these that I had to keep putting music through them. I now understand these werent meant for that and that a sub is all but required to be used with them.

When I want music I shall rely on the Totems, when I want HT I will rely on the 228's. I should stop putting music through them and expecting more than what I should.

Really, I would think your 228's and a Seaton freakin Submersive tuned correctly, crossed correctly would be better for music. I mean you got 2 high quality 15 inch bass drivers with 2400 watts of power in a big enclosure paired with crystal clear sound. You should at least try to get a measurement in there to see if you are getting some dips in your frequency response. Don't settle for less, be sure. And if there are no dips than hey no hard feeling and part ways with JTR smile.gif
post #11128 of 18425
I have a question, if you are used to Morgan Freeman's voice being more or having more boominess and the 228's lack that how do you know which is accurate? You are used to your Totem's and just because something is different does not mean it is better or worse. If you say they have more detail and hear more things I would think that speaker is the more accurate one so rather than stating the JTR's lack midrange I would say they are accurate and the Totem's have a boominess in the mid range which I prefer because I am used to it. I agree they are not 2 channel speakers, never were. They are awesome 2.1 channel speakers though!
post #11129 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Really all this discussion is guessing to some degree until we see an actual frequency response. Maybe he has a big dip at 130hz or 200hz or 160hz. Could be the reason.
Reality is that running JTR speakers w/o a high quality subwoofer will end in disappointment. They will sound exactly like Hyper is explaining. It is good that he pointed this out so others will not overlook this aspect + the rest of us can try to help him pull the most performance from his system.
It does take time to forget the old sound in favor of the new. Once the system is completely dialed in it will yield better results.

HyperM3
I like Dynamic EQ turned on with XT32 but Dynamic Volume turned off.
Audyssey can Neuter a system causing it to sound small & thin but when done right XT32 can be Sweet.
It took me about 30 days to get my T12s dialed in with the rest of my system. Every time I switch AVRs it comes with a different learning curve for pulling out the most performance.
Chris
Edited by countryWV - 10/7/13 at 12:29pm
post #11130 of 18425
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperM3 View Post

I will let this discussion die as I think Ive gotten what I need out of it and I appreciate all the responses, even the funny ones. This is not a two channel speaker. I have come to grips. Funny thing is I didnt even want them as a two channel speaker as I am using these in a dedicated HT where I never listen to music. I just got caught up with the clarity in these that I had to keep putting music through them. I now understand these werent meant for that and that a sub is all but required to be used with them.

When I want music I shall rely on the Totems, when I want HT I will rely on the 228's. I should stop putting music through them and expecting more than what I should.

I have to say that I personally very much appreciated your honest opinion on the 228HT's!

I personally still think they are one of the best speakers I've heard though for movie use, I only use mine for movies.
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